Roast Preliminary Final Umpiring Thread

[GoNorth]

Gibson took a mark that was not paid for some reason. They ran it down the other end and score a goal from memory.

Also, I think it was the Eagles first goal, but they were given a free that was fair. Play stopped, the umpire came over to set the mark. It was at half back. The Eagles players was 5 metres ahead of where the mark was, and took off.

"Play on".

What.

Was this the one where the Eagles player collided with Scott Thompson when they were both going for the mark? If so, I thought he actually took the mark and was then allowed to play on without going back behind the mark and I was gobsmacked that he was allowed to play on. Was a free kick actually paid?

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Was this the one where the Eagles player collided with Scott Thompson when they were both going for the mark? If so, I thought he actually took the mark and was then allowed to play on without going back behind the mark and I was gobsmacked that he was allowed to play on. Was a free kick actually paid?

No it was back at half back.

 

[Forever North]

Having experienced how a frenzied crowd can influence the officiating at big European football matches many times, it is one of the major reasons why some decisions changed momentum and thus the flow of the game last night. At crucial times complete howlers were paid against us, the Jacobs one by far the worst(possibly ever). It sucks the life out of a team especially if you are chasing a gettable deficit.
We didn't help ourselves with the Brown/Higgins fumble and Waite miss to put us 28pts up at qrt time. We needed EVERYTHING to be 100% last night to win i.e umpires, maximising our opportunities, WC being a bit of the boil. Unfortunately it didn't happen. That's footy, that's life sometimes.

 

[deltablues]

Hello everyone,

While I acknowledge that posting on an opposition supporters' post-game umpire venting thread will be as popular as a vegan at a paleo convention, I thought I might make a couple of points which, depending on the person, will either comfort or further enrage.

As someone with more than a passing interest in cognitive biases (I am lucky enough that a book I wrote on this topic allows me to spend far too much time lurking on BF), I have a macabre hobby of reading as many post-game threads (preferably non-West Coast games - see above point on cognitive bias) to read the various anti-umpire comments. Here are some general observations -

• I can't remember seeing a post-game (hereafter PG) thread without supporters complaining about calls that went against them (they must exist so will guess at least 95%)
• There is a near-perfect correlation between whether your team lost and how much of the discussion centres on umpiring
• In close games, these supporters will claim that the decisions "probably cost us the game"
• In games with margins beyond that which could be claimed to be influenced by umpiring alone, supporters will talk about calls early in the game, or when their team was fighting back as being "momentum killers"
• In games where a supporter's team loses the free kick count, the supporter points to the count without identifying the information which would make this stat meaningful - a) For each free, was it there or not? b) Once you have confirmed this, what happens when you add in the frees not paid to both sides. Once you have done this, you have "useful" data
• In games where the losing team's free count was equal to or higher than the winning team's, supporters will talk about "where the frees occurred" or when in the context of the game
• Teams who lose often give away silly frees out of panic (for example, I haven't looked at any stats however would hazard a guess that Nic Nat has received the most frees for the Eagles due to opposition trying to stop him from jumping) or because they are second to the ball
• When a supporter's team loses to West Coast, Hawthorn, Collingwood or Richmond, there will be talk of a conspiracy of some kind

And now some general points regarding biases in general -

• When someone becomes highly emotional, a part of their brain called the amygdala "hijacks" the part of your brain responsible for rational thought and decision making
• I would therefore expect to see more anti-umpire and conspiracy posts in finals (and further increase with each game closer to the GF)
• If you even just read the Wikipedia entry on cognitive biases, it makes for fascinating reading as you can see common examples from footy fans
• Just to give an example - notice how most people think they always seem to choose the slowest moving queue in Coles? This is because a slow queue makes as angry and a fast queue is never noticed. So we only ever remember the slow queues. How many times can you remember thinking "wow, we were really lucky today with umpiring" versus the times you thought the umps were favouring the other team?
• By the way, there is even a version of survivorship bias or selection bias with the creation of threads like these. If anyone here has had the misfortune of suffering depression and needing to take medication, you may have noticed that all you ever see on internet forums is people talking about how terrible "drug x" was. People whose depression has been successfully treated by this drug are rarely motivated to spend their days on depression forums. Same goes for supporters whose team has won the game or the free kick count.

I will make only one specific comment regarding last night. (Disclosure - I am an Eagles fan so this will be biased, not matter how hard I try - look up "bias blind spot" on the Wiki article). After watching Dockers/Hawks the night before, you may recall one of the commentators calling it a "whistle fest" at one point, with the umps getting trigger happy (that Ballantyne bump off the ball...wow...just wow). I thought the umps may have gotten a spray by their bosses who then may have warned last night's umps not to do the same. This was evident from the get-go last night, with the umps appearing to have decided to let it go more than usual. I saw dozens of frees each way that weren't paid.

What this means is that focusing on frees that weren't paid in isolation is meaningless. An unbiased observer would need to tally everything that was paid, which of these were actually frees or not, and then which ones were not paid. Then we at least have the beginnings of truly useful and interesting data. This cuts both ways mind you. I am more than prepared to accept that fans' complaints are justified, once I see the data presented as per above. And I am also prepared to accept that 43000 rabid Eagles supporters influence umpires' behaviour (they are human). However I have seen just the opposite apply, like the Eagles game against Collingwood earlier this year (for you "free kick count means everything" buffs, have a quick gander at the free count that day).

TLDR version - The venting in this thread may prove warranted, however the reasons posited are riddled with cognitive biases due to being formed in a highly emotional state.

So footy fans are subjective. Who would have guessed? You may be onto something here.

 

[JoondalupJ]

Nathan Brown on the Channel 9 show highlighted the three main incidents and called the umpires out. He also highlighted the free against Ballantyne, which gifted the Hawks their first goal.

They had a discussion along the lines of bringing in 3 other umpires from outside the six who "umpired" the two PF's.

Good call.

I suggest three from Barbour, Beitzel, Crouch, Brophy, Schwab, Nash and Blackburn, some or all of whom may be deceased.

Would all do a better job from the grave or their nursing homes than the shockers that had the job over the weekend.

Yes I agree with what you say, but Ballantyne free was legit, for mine. He had been agro and niggling bumbing punching and generally putting on his nasty little show , as he seems to do, when he thinks intimidation is the big deal. It never works for him , and it doesn't work against experienced professionals.

Yet Ballantyne keeps it up, off the ball incident, free kick , that was legit. Last night I saw stuff I've never seen before , I maybe over reacted but I tell you what , if ever a game showed what umpires could do if they were bent, was last nights game.

I won't say the umps won the game for the Eagles , but they sure as hell brought them right back into it , on their home ground with a super biased screaming crowd. North were phycologically bashed up by the umpiring, I have texts from friends and a relative in Melbourne asking what the hell is going on there.
I turned off the game after three quarters I knew the result , my son taxted me from Melbourne and says if you turned off , then you missed the worst decision in the whole game , yes against North , I have no idea what it was I had seen the result forming up with things I watched way before that.

Even WCE fans who actually understand footy will know exactly what I mean.

It points out very easily to me how the AFL needs to watch very closely in the future how they manufacture rules and interpretation , because it would be "easy as"...to change a game result. And it doesn't mean one team it means the whole 18 teams , it bad and I warned about years ago.

If any one of you folk ever read my stuff , I have been complaining about the grey rules and tiggy touchwood stuff for years, the incidental touch of the face of an Eagles player last night gave them the softests of frees (IN A FINAL TOO) and was bang smack in front of goal. It was unbelievable.

So what are the AFL doing , trying to change the contact in the game, or setting it up for gamblers. Every one will laugh at me and say what an idiot , but sport all over the world suffers from this bad bad thing, our game is too good to be ruined and its well on its way. Have a look at Seth Blatter?

 

[DarkPhoenix]

Look, I'm not saying the umpiring was rigged, but I DID think having the umpires hand out West Coast Eagles footballs to kids in the crowd at the end the match was probably a bad look.

Stealing Titus's funnies. Have you no shame Queenslandroo!

 

[SpearPass]

I think the worst decision was when the Eagles bloke coathangered spitter on the mark, and it wasn't overturned.

This was the real shocker for me. It wasn't even 'in play'. He was manning the mark and had his head ripped off.

 

[La Flama Blanca]

Yes I agree with what you say, but Ballantyne free was legit, for mine. He had been agro and niggling bumbing punching and generally putting on his nasty little show , as he seems to do, when he thinks intimidation is the big deal. It never works for him , and it doesn't work against experienced professionals.

Yet Ballantyne keeps it up, off the ball incident, free kick , that was legit. Last night I saw stuff I've never seen before , I maybe over reacted but I tell you what , if ever a game showed what umpires could do if they were bent, was last nights game.

I won't say the umps won the game for the Eagles , but they sure as hell brought them right back into it , on their home ground with a super biased screaming crowd. North were phycologically bashed up by the umpiring, I have texts from friends and a relative in Melbourne asking what the hell is going on there.
I turned off the game after three quarters I knew the result , my son taxted me from Melbourne and says if you turned off , then you missed the worst decision in the whole game , yes against North , I have no idea what it was I had seen the result forming up with things I watched way before that.

Even WCE fans who actually understand footy will know exactly what I mean.

It points out very easily to me how the AFL needs to watch very closely in the future how they manufacture rules and interpretation , because it would be "easy as"...to change a game result. And it doesn't mean one team it means the whole 18 teams , it bad and I warned about years ago.

If any one of you folk ever read my stuff , I have been complaining about the grey rules and tiggy touchwood stuff for years, the incidental touch of the face of an Eagles player last night gave them the softests of frees (IN A FINAL TOO) and was bang smack in front of goal. It was unbelievable.

So what are the AFL doing , trying to change the contact in the game, or setting it up for gamblers. Every one will laugh at me and say what an idiot , but sport all over the world suffers from this bad bad thing, our game is too good to be ruined and its well on its way. Have a look at Seth Blatter?

The trouble is the interpretations are so vague that in theory you could pay 150 free kicks to 5 and it be perfectly explainable. I think it's a big call to say they rigged the game against us on purpose, but they certainly got sucked in and it cost us a fair run at winning.

 

[Spitta09]

Have to laugh at some of the eagles fans trying to defend the umpiring, if they received that kind of treatment i can't imagine the reaction from their fans given they boo and sulk about any free kick that goes against them. Self entitled clowns!

 

[Flawed Genius]

Andrew Swallow standing the mark and being RKO'd to the ground, no call

Ben Jacobs being tripped/sliding rule'd, no call

Ben Jacobs lying on the ground after being tripped, holding the ball, other end, goal

Ben Jacobs tackling Shuey totally legally, Shuey's head lightly tapping Dal Santo's abdomen, high tackle, goal

Sam Gibson not being paid a mark at CHB, Priddis intercept, goal

Tarrant and Darling "contest", holding the man, goal

Josh Kennedy being paid a free kick that was there, not going back around his mark, charging off & setting up a goal, no call

Josh Kennedy taking a really good mark on Scott Thompson, not going back around his mark, charging off and kicking a goal, no call

LeCras not being paid for holding it

 

[JoondalupJ]

Lol Fremantle has put in a complaint about the prelim 1

Good, if one of those umpires was crooked so be it. Or incompetent so be it.
But your side was gifted a comeback last night, unlike , as I've said and others have said, like nothing I've ever seen before, the umpiring massacred your opponent , but we'll see you on the MCG next week, and seriously good luck I hope you wish my mob good luck too.

Next week is a new day!

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Josh Kennedy being paid a free kick that was there, not going back around his mark, charging off & setting up a goal, no call

Josh Kennedy taking a really good mark on Scott Thompson, not going back around his mark, charging off and kicking a goal, no call

Im never going to have the stomach to watch the replay, but in one of these goals, the Eagles got a free at their HB. Legit. Ump came in to set the mark, the WC player was 5 metres past his mark. He simply takes off and the ump calls play on.

Does anyone remember it?

 

[theduckfan]

But on Friday night it was Freo at home who copped the crap decisions.

Agree that tonight the umpiring was terrible....both ways. Norths should have got a shot on goal when Cunnington was tripped accidentally.

The obvious holding free on Kennedy not paid was baffling..........then Tarrant got pinged for holding on Darling that looked like nothing. Similar to Ballantyne getting pinged on Friday night in the first quarter.

Kennedy got crunched high and no free and earlier Waite dived backwards and Wellingham was pinged.

The umpires have had a crap couple of nights and unfortunately this takes away the focus on the contest. Instead of looking at which players did well and did not so well everyone is talking about the crap umpiring.

Its a shame. The AFL needs to invest more in umpiring.

If you genuinely believe the umpiring was equally shocking both ways, you weren't watching the same game as most of us.

They handed you the momentum every time you needed it.

Won't be watching next week, im done.

Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk

 

[Flawed Genius]

Im never going to have the stomach to watch the replay, but in one of these goals, the Eagles got a free at their HB. Legit. Ump came in to set the mark, the WC player was 5 metres past his mark. He simply takes off and the ump calls play on.

Does anyone remember it?

It was the first one of the two you quoted. Kennedy playing up the ground. Got a free kick and wandered off before going back over his mark. They waved play on and Kennedy had a paddock to run into

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

It was the first one of the two you quoted. Kennedy playing up the ground. Got a free kick and wandered off before going back over his mark. They waved play on and Kennedy had a paddock to run into

Im 99% sure it resulted in a goal.

 

[astrovic]

Hello everyone,

While I acknowledge that posting on an opposition supporters' post-game umpire venting thread will be as popular as a vegan at a paleo convention, I thought I might make a couple of points which, depending on the person, will either comfort or further enrage.

As someone with more than a passing interest in cognitive biases (I am lucky enough that a book I wrote on this topic allows me to spend far too much time lurking on BF), I have a macabre hobby of reading as many post-game threads (preferably non-West Coast games - see above point on cognitive bias) to read the various anti-umpire comments. Here are some general observations -

• I can't remember seeing a post-game (hereafter PG) thread without supporters complaining about calls that went against them (they must exist so will guess at least 95%)
• There is a near-perfect correlation between whether your team lost and how much of the discussion centres on umpiring
• In close games, these supporters will claim that the decisions "probably cost us the game"
• In games with margins beyond that which could be claimed to be influenced by umpiring alone, supporters will talk about calls early in the game, or when their team was fighting back as being "momentum killers"
• In games where a supporter's team loses the free kick count, the supporter points to the count without identifying the information which would make this stat meaningful - a) For each free, was it there or not? b) Once you have confirmed this, what happens when you add in the frees not paid to both sides. Once you have done this, you have "useful" data
• In games where the losing team's free count was equal to or higher than the winning team's, supporters will talk about "where the frees occurred" or when in the context of the game
• Teams who lose often give away silly frees out of panic (for example, I haven't looked at any stats however would hazard a guess that Nic Nat has received the most frees for the Eagles due to opposition trying to stop him from jumping) or because they are second to the ball
• When a supporter's team loses to West Coast, Hawthorn, Collingwood or Richmond, there will be talk of a conspiracy of some kind

And now some general points regarding biases in general -

• When someone becomes highly emotional, a part of their brain called the amygdala "hijacks" the part of your brain responsible for rational thought and decision making
• I would therefore expect to see more anti-umpire and conspiracy posts in finals (and further increase with each game closer to the GF)
• If you even just read the Wikipedia entry on cognitive biases, it makes for fascinating reading as you can see common examples from footy fans
• Just to give an example - notice how most people think they always seem to choose the slowest moving queue in Coles? This is because a slow queue makes as angry and a fast queue is never noticed. So we only ever remember the slow queues. How many times can you remember thinking "wow, we were really lucky today with umpiring" versus the times you thought the umps were favouring the other team?
• By the way, there is even a version of survivorship bias or selection bias with the creation of threads like these. If anyone here has had the misfortune of suffering depression and needing to take medication, you may have noticed that all you ever see on internet forums is people talking about how terrible "drug x" was. People whose depression has been successfully treated by this drug are rarely motivated to spend their days on depression forums. Same goes for supporters whose team has won the game or the free kick count.

I will make only one specific comment regarding last night. (Disclosure - I am an Eagles fan so this will be biased, not matter how hard I try - look up "bias blind spot" on the Wiki article). After watching Dockers/Hawks the night before, you may recall one of the commentators calling it a "whistle fest" at one point, with the umps getting trigger happy (that Ballantyne bump off the ball...wow...just wow). I thought the umps may have gotten a spray by their bosses who then may have warned last night's umps not to do the same. This was evident from the get-go last night, with the umps appearing to have decided to let it go more than usual. I saw dozens of frees each way that weren't paid.

What this means is that focusing on frees that weren't paid in isolation is meaningless. An unbiased observer would need to tally everything that was paid, which of these were actually frees or not, and then which ones were not paid. Then we at least have the beginnings of truly useful and interesting data. This cuts both ways mind you. I am more than prepared to accept that fans' complaints are justified, once I see the data presented as per above. And I am also prepared to accept that 43000 rabid Eagles supporters influence umpires' behaviour (they are human). However I have seen just the opposite apply, like the Eagles game against Collingwood earlier this year (for you "free kick count means everything" buffs, have a quick gander at the free count that day).

TLDR version - The venting in this thread may prove warranted, however the reasons posited are riddled with cognitive biases due to being formed in a highly emotional state.

Easily - and I say this without any shadow of a doubt - the single most boring post I have ever read on Bigfooty.

 

[Flawed Genius]

Im 99% sure it resulted in a goal.

Yeah it did

 

[Flawed Genius]

Easily - and I say this without any shadow of a doubt - the single most boring post I have ever read on Bigfooty.

****ing LOL

 

[Robertsonroo]

Interesting to note that umpire Nicholls was the emergency for last night's match.
Is it just me or have we not had him umpire us much, or at all, since the debate about him in the Geelong game at Simmons Stadium this year? Geelong fans were ropeable over his performance, saying he favoured us that night.
Umpire Nicholls is one umpire ranking highly on North supporters Hate List. Most North supporters cringe when he appears....he has a long 'history of hate' towards us.
In a BF note this morning it said that one commentator stated that ALL six umpires from Perth should NOT get the GF....leaving Nicholls as a prime choice.
If North had made it through there would not be many AFL umpires that we 'appreciate' for their fairness and unbiased approach to 50/50 calls.

 

[JoondalupJ]

Andrew Swallow standing the mark and being RKO'd to the ground, no call

Ben Jacobs being tripped/sliding rule'd, no call

Ben Jacobs lying on the ground after being tripped, holding the ball, other end, goal

Ben Jacobs tackling Shuey totally legally, Shuey's head lightly tapping Dal Santo's abdomen, high tackle, goal

Sam Gibson not being paid a mark at CHB, Priddis intercept, goal

Tarrant and Darling "contest", holding the man, goal

Josh Kennedy being paid a free kick that was there, not going back around his mark, charging off & setting up a goal, no call

Josh Kennedy taking a really good mark on Scott Thompson, not going back around his mark, charging off and kicking a goal, no call

LeCras not being paid for holding it

And theres the key its what they leave out that creates the problem. Yet they pick up others that create an advantage , that is not supposed to happen , and that is what is happening in AFL now, these things will eventually see people stop watching, I did last night, I am no fan of North, but if the Eagles had have wiped the floor with North from the start different story, but no the Eagles were a rabble , then the tide was turned by frees where I had seen infringements against North seconds before , then hearing the umpire yelling West Coast , and my second son and I looking at TV and at each other and saying "WHAT!"
In quarter no. two, that happened in Norths half forward line twice and ended up with them sitting baffled not realising while the Eagles were forward flowing down the ground and Kennedy I think scored on of his goals off one of those terrible decisions, there was a free before it to North, unseen or just not paid????????????????????
Look I could go to town on this , I will finish , but that game was destroyed for me as a fair thing by three quarter time , I could see North gearing up to lose. That is not football, in the way I have watched and followed it ,for way over 50 years.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

Should I just put my Eagles blinkers on and take the win? Hell no. If there is the widespread perception that we got a great ride, which there undoubtedly is, then does that make the umps go into a grand final thinking "Gee, the Eagles get things too nicely lately. Let's make sure that doesn't happen today" ... and result in us potentially getting screwed over in the GF? What Eagles fan would want that? Therefore no Eagles fan should be pleased with last night's umpiring, or attempting to make light of it. Because just watch & see how quickly and violently these "give it a rest" type people backflip if that happens to us next weekend!!

I think you guys are on a hiding to nothing next week. You WILL be screwed over by the umpires, due to both over-correction and the fact that the free ride that WC get in Perth never comes to Melbourne.

We couldn't overcome WC last night and the umpiring was one of a number of contributors to that result (and probably not the main one). I suspect you'll suffer the same fate next week. It will be an enormous effort if WC get up.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

Easily - and I say this without any shadow of a doubt - the single most boring post I have ever read on Bigfooty.

LOL. Literally.


But, but, he wrote a book!

 

[JoondalupJ]

Interesting to note that umpire Nicholls was the emergency for last night's match.
Is it just me or have we not had him umpire us much, or at all, since the debate about him in the Geelong game at Simmons Stadium this year? Geelong fans were ropeable over his performance, saying he favoured us that night.
Umpire Nicholls is one umpire ranking highly on North supporters Hate List. Most North supporters cringe when he appears....he has a long 'history of hate' towards us.
In a BF note this morning it said that one commentator stated that ALL six umpires from Perth should NOT get the GF....leaving Nicholls as a prime choice.
If North had made it through there would not be many AFL umpires that we 'appreciate' for their fairness and unbiased approach to 50/50 calls.

Hawthorn and Umpire Goldspink had the same relationship , he hated us and we hated him , and I blame him for some serious incidents our players were involved in as he created frustration and anger. I think the umpires should be full time and paid very good money so that decent umpires actually get the job done fairly. There is no doubt something with "a few" umps is wrong, they are either crook or incompetent .

 

[nelroo]

If the umpires realized its not about them but the players and the fans the game would be better off. Right now its becoming a farse.

We shouldn't even notice them. That is the sign that the game has been umpired well.

I for one don't want them mic'd up either. It just makes them too involved to have "their moment in the game".

I don't want to hear that midget **** Razor either repeatedly telling Jacobs to " settle down its high, settle down".

Did they turn off the mic after the Jacobs non trip call and then subsequent HTB shocker? I didn't hear the explanation..would have been a good one.

 

[Jack_the_Ninja]

There is only one way to fix this ( yes it is an issue ) and that would be to have a video replay steward change the decisions from above..this would slow the game down to NFL stoppage levels and would be more of a problem than the bad decisions themselves. Playing at the G in front of Collingwood supporters and Richmond can be just as bad though...the louder the crowd the more it influences decisions by the umps so the real solution is to get your own fans to become louder.