Priority Picks fair?

[Deej]

Originally posted by Blue Boyz
The reason I mention all this is that hear some much crap from younger, ill informed or ignorant Big Footy fans that Carlton "bought all their flags" where as all other clubs got their's legitmately. Footy fans from the '70's and 80's would well remember that Collingwood tried for years to buy a flag and were unsuccessful, Richmond had an enormous amount of bought and poached players in early 70's teams, just to a couple of other clubs not adverst to cheque book recruiting.

It's not just the younger ones who think this, it's basically everyone. It's too difficult for people to believe that carlton were successful because they were smarter and worked harder. Very convenient to blame money, in this country money is a dirty thing (if you have it you're the enemy to the working man) and for the millions of afl followers who dislike carlton for whatever reason (jealousy usually) it's a convenient way to paint and tarnish the club. It's basically the cornerstone of most of joffa & co's arguements against mine. All rubbish, no real thought, lemmings blindly following afl spin & propoganda, but sadly the majority.

 

[skipper kelly]

Originally posted by Deej
It's not just the younger ones who think this, it's basically everyone. It's too difficult for people to believe that carlton were successful because they were smarter and worked harder. Very convenient to blame money, in this country money is a dirty thing (if you have it you're the enemy to the working man) and for the millions of afl followers who dislike carlton for whatever reason (jealousy usually) it's a convenient way to paint and tarnish the club. It's basically the cornerstone of most of joffa & co's arguements against mine. All rubbish, no real thought, lemmings blindly following afl spin & propoganda, but sadly the majority.

What makes you think everyone thinks this way?

 

[JeffDunne]

Originally posted by Deej
It's not just the younger ones who think this, it's basically everyone. It's too difficult for people to believe that carlton were successful because they were smarter and worked harder. Very convenient to blame money, in this country money is a dirty thing (if you have it you're the enemy to the working man) and for the millions of afl followers who dislike carlton for whatever reason (jealousy usually) it's a convenient way to paint and tarnish the club. It's basically the cornerstone of most of joffa & co's arguements against mine. All rubbish, no real thought, lemmings blindly following afl spin & propoganda, but sadly the majority.

Deej, I don't think most really believe you can buy a premeirship. It takes lots of ingredients to win a premiership.

The basis of the arguement is how you get good talent. You either have a draft/salary cap that distributes the talent, or you allow a free market. When there was a free market, Carlton were a powerful club, the perception was that they could offer more than the stuggling clubs. So in this era, young and established players were easy to lure to a powerful club with the promises of money and success. It's a bit hard to offer these when you currently have neither. It didn't always work, look at what Collingwood paid for Mitchell.

But since we agree that it takes more than just playing talent to win a flag, I still don't see how getting players from early draft picks guarantees a flag. The only difference is in how you initially secure these players. No guarantee of success.

 

[Deej]

Originally posted by skipper kelly
What makes you think everyone thinks this way?

I've never heard anyone other than a carlton supporter say otherwise, that's why. Sorry, I know I am generalising, but i feel pretty safe doing so with this one. Who doesn't think carlton bought or cheated to win flags? Carlton did nothing that nearly every other club did including stkilda melbourne footscray whoever, it's just we did it smarter and better. We were a well run club thus we won flags. It had nothing to do with spending more money than everyone else.

 

[Deej]

Originally posted by JeffDunne
But since we agree that it takes more than just playing talent to win a flag, I still don't see how getting players from early draft picks guarantees a flag. The only difference is in how you initially secure these players. No guarantee of success.

I never said it guarantees anyone a flag. I said i disagree with the principles of the draft which is a system that is inevitably cyclical. It devalues success and failure in equal proportions. In such a manipulated world a lot of the spontaneous passion is lost, because basically everything becomes business ie.expected and planned, few surprises.

It didn't take nostradamous to see that freo and stkilda would rise the ladder and it won't be a surprise to see brisbane fall from grace in a couple of years either. That's the draft at work, stkilda are proof the system works.

 

[JeffDunne]

Originally posted by Deej
I never said it guarantees anyone a flag. I said i disagree with the principles of the draft which is a system that is inevitably cyclical. It devalues success and failure in equal proportions. In such a manipulated world a lot of passion is lost, and everything becomes a business.

If the draft (or low picks) doesn’t guarantee success, how does it cheapen winning a flag?

Look at Formula One Deej, don't you think if all drivers had equal machines under them it would make winning the drivers championship all the more credible? This is the point of the current system - to try and spread the talent evenly over all lists.

You obviously have a philosophical problem with a sporting competition where everyone walks to the starting line with equal chance of winning.

 

[skipper kelly]

Originally posted by Deej
I've never heard anyone other than a carlton supporter say otherwise, that's why. Sorry, I know I am generalising, but i feel pretty safe doing so with this one. Who doesn't think carlton bought or cheated to win flags? Carlton did nothing that nearly every other club did including stkilda melbourne footscray whoever, it's just we did it smarter and better. We were a well run club thus we won flags. It had nothing to do with spending more money than everyone else.

Its all about that age old word, perception. If they broke the rules in 1995, well that one might be iffy, but as for the rest of the flags, they are all legit.

 

[Ripper]

Originally posted by Deej

It didn't take nostradamous to see that freo and stkilda would rise the ladder and it won't be a surprise to see brisbane fall from grace in a couple of years either. That's the draft at work, stkilda are proof the system works.

FWIW Deej I agree that a Salary cap is all that is needed for equalisation.
Freo would have been up the ladder a lot earlier if the draft wasn't in place Draft. Count the number Stars tht originated from Freo's Father /Son Zone and you will see what I mean.

 

[Portia]

Meanwhile with no draft both SA teams would be playing the most extensive midfields in the competition and crying out for top key position players.

 

[1jasonoz]

Originally posted by Blue Boyz
True North recruited very well from their Melbourne suburban and country zones but the reality is club's administration led capablely by Allen Aylett, Ron Joesph, Barry Cheatley and Albert Mantello were definitely on the front foot with cheque book and recruited many many top class players from interstate with to name just a few.

Not to mentioned recruiting (poaching?) Crosswell, Kennan, Johnny Cassin and Garry Dempsey etc from other VFL clubs. True they didn't all play in flag teams but North were not against using cheque book recruiting when it they wanted to prolong their time at the top after being cellar dwellars for all of the 60's and early 70's. Money was the only way they could go up.

As for recruiting Wade, Davis and Rantall under the short lived10 year rule,
there was certainly plenty of interest from other league clubs for their services but North offered too much cash for them to say no.

The reason I mention all this is that hear some much crap from younger, ill informed or ignorant Big Footy fans that Carlton "bought all their flags" where as all other clubs got their's legitmately. Footy fans from the '70's and 80's would well remember that Collingwood tried for years to buy a flag and were unsuccessful, Richmond had an enormous amount of bought and poached players in early 70's teams, just to a couple of other clubs not adverst to cheque book recruiting.

You raise some valid points in argument Jazon, all I am doing is attempting to introduce a bit of historical balance into the argument.

1/ Out of the players you first mentioned, Blight, Cable, Burns, Graham Melrose, Richard Mikelceck (spelling??), Ray Huppartz, Russel Ebert and Graham Cornes; the last 2 didn't join until after our final G/F apperance in the 70's. Cable had played with us twice, the Roos trying in the late 60's to get him, and he played for us then went home, and returned later. John Burns(spoke to him 7 weeks ago), Blight etc, all came to North not because of large sums of money that was put in front of them, but because they where lured by the prospect of playing under legendary coach in R Barrasi.

2/ Croswell also goes into the list of players who crossed over not for money, but as in his words, 'something special was going on at North' and any player worth anything wanted to be apart of it. He came over as per Blight and Burns. Dempsey also didn't join us until the early 80's(82) aswell. He knew that he wouldn't win a premiership at the Doggies, so crossed over to North in the hope of getting one.

 

[Deej]

Originally posted by JeffDunne
You obviously have a philosophical problem with a sporting competition where everyone walks to the starting line with equal chance of winning.

Actually quite the contrary it is the equal chance that i'm craving, and for the record McLaren have just as much chance of winning as do Ferrari and Jordan and Jaguar et al. It is hard work commitment and brilliant performances by Schumacher that makes Ferrari better.

Why penalise Ferrari by taking away Schumacher and giving them Deej just because they are the best at what they do?

My idea is to cap how much each team can spend in a year. Our current system gives Ferrari Deej as #1 driver to compete against Schumacher in a Minardi. I'm good mate but not that good (i don't think).

 

[skipper kelly]

Originally posted by Deej
Ferrari Deej as #1 driver to compete against Schumacher in a Minardi. I'm good mate but not that good (i don't think).

you wish.

 

[Portia]

Originally posted by Porthos
Meanwhile with no draft both SA teams would be playing the most extensive midfields in the competition and crying out for top key position players.

Actually, I'm on crack. Under Kenny's idea, there are 74 AFL listed players to choose from for the Power alone.

I would be quite happy with a Pavlich-Tredrea-Buckley-Wellman-
Harris corridor, thanks.

 

[JeffDunne]

Originally posted by Deej
Actually quite the contrary it is the equal chance that i'm craving, and for the record McLaren have just as much chance of winning as do Ferrari and Jordan and Jaguar et al. It is hard work commitment and brilliant performances by Schumacher that makes Ferrari better.

Complete crap. Money is the difference - pure and simple. I'd suggest some in the lesser teams actually work harder with less resources than their rivals. I bet you wave a Ferrari flag Deej?

Why penalise Ferrari by taking away Schumacher and giving them Deej just because they are the best at what they do?

My idea is to cap how much each team can spend in a year. Our current system gives Ferrari Deej as #1 driver to compete against Schumacher in a Minardi. I'm good mate but not that good (i don't think).

How would you control the amount each team spends? How would you, dare I say it, prevent someone doing a Carlton?

 

[Deej]

Originally posted by JeffDunne
How would you control the amount each team spends? How would you, dare I say it, prevent someone doing a Carlton?

Define what is 'doing a carlton'.

If it's cheating the cap then why not say doing an essendon or a melbourne or a collingwood or any other team that broke the cap and came clean under the moratorium. Anyway that's probably irrelevent, i will try answer your question!

I would penalise premiership points (savagely). Any deliberate breaking of the cap results in loss of 20-40 premiership points.

 

[Portia]

I'd rather reduce their cap for the next two seasons by the amount that it was exceeded by in that season (unless it was found out midseason, in which case premiership points would be appropriate)

 

[JeffDunne]

Deej, I only used Carlton because they are the only club that has been properly dealt with for breaches. But that's another arguement . . .

So I guess what we are both saying is we are happy to have a system in place that gives equal oppertunity to all. The diference in opinion being you don't like the present system and I do. I can live with that.

I do however strongly disagree that the present system guarantees flags or success for all.

 

[Deej]

Originally posted by Porthos
I'd rather reduce their cap for the next two seasons by the amount that it was exceeded by in that season (unless it was found out midseason, in which case premiership points would be appropriate)

This would be a good idea too but given existing contracts would be already in place it'd be pretty difficult to engineer. Premiership points would kill every reason why the club broke the cap in the first place.

 

[Portia]

Originally posted by Deej
This would be a good idea too but given existing contracts would be already in place it'd be pretty difficult to engineer.

Exactly! Make them trade off their well-paid players or face more penalties. Its the perfect response.

 

[Deej]

Originally posted by JeffDunne
Deej, I only used Carlton because they are the only club that has been properly dealt with for breaches. But that's another arguement . . .

So I guess what we are both saying is we are happy to have a system in place that gives equal oppertunity to all. The diference in opinion being you don't like the present system and I do. I can live with that.

I do however strongly disagree that the present system guarantees flags or success for all.

I've said it numerous times that i would support a cap as long as it was uniform for all (maybe slight allowance to sydney linked to cost of living differences).

The thing that irks me about the draft is it physically prevents you from approaching the players you would like to have at your club. I can live with Goddard at StKilda if that's where he wants to play from day one. Nathan Buckley going to Brisbane for a year was ridiculous, likewise Des Headland, likewise Nick Stevens...if Stevens REALLY wanted to play for collingwood then why can't he for gods sake??? Why couldn't Goddard join Carlton??? Bloody system i hate it.

 

[Joffaboy]

Originally posted by Deej
Why couldn't Goddard join Carlton??? Bloody system i hate it.

Cause you are a bunch of cheats. Dont blame the system blame your incompetent Administration and the Pres you all fawned over for 20 years.

Love seeing you cry over Goddard. And guess what, apparently he loves being in a winning team with all his mates. Why would he want to go to a club that underperforms and doesn't work as hard as the Saints? Only wants to get results by cheating and taking short cuts.

 

[Deej]

Originally posted by Joffaboy
Love seeing you cry

This statement sums you up. No need to read any more, you are nasty and delight in others' misfortune.

Now answer this, why couldn't Nick Stevens go to Collingwood if he really wanted to? If you believe media reports he was even willing to accept less money to go there. In my opinion if everything there is true then it's sad that he couldn't get there. What is your opinion on the matter? Address the issue and not your delight in my disappoints please.

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by Porthos
I'd rather reduce their cap for the next two seasons by the amount that it was exceeded by in that season (unless it was found out midseason, in which case premiership points would be appropriate)

I think this is appropriate but I am not against draft penalties for major, repeated offenses.

 

[JeffDunne]

Originally posted by Porthos
I'd rather reduce their cap for the next two seasons by the amount that it was exceeded by in that season (unless it was found out midseason, in which case premiership points would be appropriate)

What good would reducing the cap be if your playing list are prepared to take pay cuts?

If the club are paying everyone 20% over the cap for a couple of seasons, these same players are probably prepared to receive 20% less while the penalties are in place.

 

[Deej]

Originally posted by MarkT
I think this is appropriate but I am not against draft penalties for major, repeated offenses.

No way, should never interfere with what should be an individual's choice of which company he chooses to further his career with.

Deducting points will eliminate them from finals and therefore any chance of a flag. Reducing cap forces clubs to trade better players.