Ha! Yes it is. My bad, I will have to edit that now! The dangers of having parallel conversations running at the same time.
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Public vs Private School funding
- Thread starter Gralin
- Start date
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Having an alternative view that challenges someone else's is not being dishonest. You would hopefully remember my discussions all throughout the covid saga. Those epic conversations with BlueE. I'm fairly sure I've proven myself as not a bad faith poster and always genuine (look at how many times I've happily admitted mistake!).
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Huh?
I'm aware... but I am not aware of what that has to do with my post that you quoted or what it has to do with what we were discussing... hence the - huh?
You replied to a post that I wrote about making a typo... Unsure how this relates to "the religious crap they teach in schools"
Not sure if you're making an assumption about my thoughts on religious education in schools, but if you are, it's a bad one.
Aha! Now that makes sense. FYI - I'd totally be supportive of removing religious education from the schools. Replace it with more time spent on various social/emotional education topics and general life skills education. If parents want to expose their kids to religion, then they can take them to church.
- Sep 17, 2019
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I believe a Far Right government would be less likely to happen if we got rid of the private school system.
You have a fine knack of not actually answering the question being asked. Well done.
- May 20, 2019
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After holding a full weekend retreat to discuss the unfolding crisis subsequent to Monday's Four Corners Report, an independent review is now to be undertaken into the school governance model.
In reporting on this Louise Mulligan highlights the fact that most members of previous Cranbrook School Council resigned in 2022 and called for such a review over matters now revealed publicly by Mulligan.
Bastions of conservative power in the national media including The Australian and writers in the Australian Financial attacked them for being 'woke'.
The irony here is how the AFR itself reported on the resignations at the time:
'Experts agree that what went down at Cranbrook School was an exemplar of governance gone wrong. Which points to larger questions over how independent schools conduct themselves without any real oversight, even though they are in receipt of millions of dollars in taxpayer funding.'
“It can be really tricky because school councils have got to be loyal to a purpose rather than to people,” says Ian Murray, an expert in governance of not-for-profits at the University of Western Australia.
Emma Rowe, an expert in educational reform and policy, in particular privatisation and marketisation of schools, says the way the council and company was “gerrymandered” to suit North’s view of the world “was very problematic”.
“It’s indicative of a bigger problem we have around schools that are absolutely awash with privilege and their governing bodies that are not very democratic,” Rowe says.
Murray points out that independent schools are independent for a reason – they are “meant to operate differently to the way the state would go about pursuing the public good”.
As Mulligan points out - no one can claim they were not aware of serious problems at the school. Former councillors tried to say so & found themselves confronted with bullying allegations, newspaper campaign, legal threats. They resigned. Culture issues continued until the Four Corners program exposed them on Monday.
There are now calls for a Federal Inquiry which, if accepted by the government and cross benches, is likely to have flow on across the private school sector, much like happened with the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse.
In reporting on this Louise Mulligan highlights the fact that most members of previous Cranbrook School Council resigned in 2022 and called for such a review over matters now revealed publicly by Mulligan.
Bastions of conservative power in the national media including The Australian and writers in the Australian Financial attacked them for being 'woke'.
The irony here is how the AFR itself reported on the resignations at the time:
'Experts agree that what went down at Cranbrook School was an exemplar of governance gone wrong. Which points to larger questions over how independent schools conduct themselves without any real oversight, even though they are in receipt of millions of dollars in taxpayer funding.'
“It can be really tricky because school councils have got to be loyal to a purpose rather than to people,” says Ian Murray, an expert in governance of not-for-profits at the University of Western Australia.
Emma Rowe, an expert in educational reform and policy, in particular privatisation and marketisation of schools, says the way the council and company was “gerrymandered” to suit North’s view of the world “was very problematic”.
“It’s indicative of a bigger problem we have around schools that are absolutely awash with privilege and their governing bodies that are not very democratic,” Rowe says.
Murray points out that independent schools are independent for a reason – they are “meant to operate differently to the way the state would go about pursuing the public good”.
As Mulligan points out - no one can claim they were not aware of serious problems at the school. Former councillors tried to say so & found themselves confronted with bullying allegations, newspaper campaign, legal threats. They resigned. Culture issues continued until the Four Corners program exposed them on Monday.
There are now calls for a Federal Inquiry which, if accepted by the government and cross benches, is likely to have flow on across the private school sector, much like happened with the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse.
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- Jul 27, 2013
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Maybe check in with the registrars at your local Govt school and see how many ex-private school kids they'd enrolled in the past year. For bonus points ask if your can have their average Naplan scores
- Jul 27, 2013
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There is plenty of evidence that well-prior to the overdue payroll tax introduction, private school fees rose at a similar rate as they always had during the time when Fed funding for private schools was being dramatically increased. Why do you think that was? why wouldn't this windfall have been passed on to customers rather than into more extravagant buildings and sports facilities?
I've worked in both systems for 24 years, I don't have to.
In fact, my current role has me working directly with students with diagnosed learning difficulties as well as those who are just finding academia challenging. The role is not preparing them for expulsion, by the way.
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On the fees point, I'm actually agreeing with you. I was just commenting that they have likely risen even more with the payroll tax implementation. We don't have to disagree on everything.
- Sep 21, 2009
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This is what I'm talking about in the post you replied to.
I'm not attacking you, I'm trying to explain how you are coming across.
I didn't say that, you know I didn't say that. And I was clear in not saying that.
It's dishonest to reply in that way.
The same way as you misinterpreting posts like Gralins, and then you consistently reframe the discussion when you're corrected with new information, while acting like it's everyone else who is confused.
It's dishonest and disengaging.
But It's off topic so I won't go on about it.
I'm being completely honest here, I'm not trying to reframe the discussion as I am legitimately confused (and still am!) by what the actual meaning of the point made by Gralin was. It's quite possible (as I've already mentioned in another post) that we're all confused (me included) about each others meaning within the conversation. I'm sincerely asking you to stop looking at me through a lens of "bad faith" posting. As an example, I never said you were attacking me but you're looking at my reply as if I did. I'm just explaining that I have an alternate view, and that doesn't automatically mean I'm a bad faith/dishonest poster.
If I can explain one more time and then happy to move on if that's the case, but this is in no way a post framed by dishonesty, but rather clarification of my posting. Gralin stated that they're backup to closing all private schools was that they have to teach the Australian curriculum to be considered schools. I took that as banning alternative curriculums. Now I don't see this as an unreasonable interpretation of the statement and I would be confident that there would be others here that would interpret it the same way. This then was clarified to mean they have to teach the Australian curriculum but not exclusively. Now I'm still not clear on what this actually means as, to me, that's not really any different to what the current situation is (as I've already explained). I work in the industry, so I'm legitimately interested in trying to work out what Gralin's idea actually means, as it currently reads as if their backup is keep everything as it is now.
I've spoken about things like this before in here. I completely understand the stance of wanting to abolish independent schools. However, I'm not sure how this is supposed to be done and if it is going to have the result that is desired.
For instance, if we abolish independent schools, they would need to become public schools as we'd suddenly have a number of students with nowhere to go if they didn't. So, the private facilities need to be bought out to do this. However, they are still in the same location - which are generally in the wealthier suburbs. So, in my view, we'd end up with no change in the student population, more money in the pockets of the generally already well-off, who are also the more likely to be motivated to donate money to their child's school. Facilities remain high quality, teachers remain attracted to working at those schools, networks within the community/graduate-parents remain, etc. So as I said, I understand the stance as it's backed by good intentions, but I'm just not visualising any actual change in the situation if it happens. I'd love to hear other thoughts on this if there are some.
My view is that there absolutely needs to be change.
- I see this as an increase in education funding overall with the entire increase only going to the public school system and specifically to the schools that need it most.
- I also think there needs to be some thought going into how we can increase the respect the wider community has for education and the value of teachers within the community. This could be revamping teacher education pathways (which has somewhat already happened with the Masters pathway). In my opinion - respect of teachers and education is a big one. Finland is often mentioned as an exemplar model, but it's also built on a huge level of respect for teachers. I just don't feel we have that here and without it, we will struggle to attract the best people we can to the profession.
- I'd also like to see the state based senior curriculum scrapped (e.g. VCE, HSC, etc) and have that centralised to a national curriculum (note, I'm fine with alternative curriculums being offered by schools - e.g. IB). This would likely free up a fair bit of state funding as we wouldn't need the state level government bodies.
I'd love to hear some alternative views.
For instance, if we abolish independent schools, they would need to become public schools as we'd suddenly have a number of students with nowhere to go if they didn't. So, the private facilities need to be bought out to do this. However, they are still in the same location - which are generally in the wealthier suburbs. So, in my view, we'd end up with no change in the student population, more money in the pockets of the generally already well-off, who are also the more likely to be motivated to donate money to their child's school. Facilities remain high quality, teachers remain attracted to working at those schools, networks within the community/graduate-parents remain, etc. So as I said, I understand the stance as it's backed by good intentions, but I'm just not visualising any actual change in the situation if it happens. I'd love to hear other thoughts on this if there are some.
My view is that there absolutely needs to be change.
- I see this as an increase in education funding overall with the entire increase only going to the public school system and specifically to the schools that need it most.
- I also think there needs to be some thought going into how we can increase the respect the wider community has for education and the value of teachers within the community. This could be revamping teacher education pathways (which has somewhat already happened with the Masters pathway). In my opinion - respect of teachers and education is a big one. Finland is often mentioned as an exemplar model, but it's also built on a huge level of respect for teachers. I just don't feel we have that here and without it, we will struggle to attract the best people we can to the profession.
- I'd also like to see the state based senior curriculum scrapped (e.g. VCE, HSC, etc) and have that centralised to a national curriculum (note, I'm fine with alternative curriculums being offered by schools - e.g. IB). This would likely free up a fair bit of state funding as we wouldn't need the state level government bodies.
I'd love to hear some alternative views.
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- Jul 27, 2013
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they have always risen. The payroll tax has just given them an excuse for a change. Fees rise act as a class filter.
- Jul 27, 2013
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your ideas all have merit. How far do they get in the staffroom or meetings of the private school that you work at? The bit about the entire increase going to public schools in particular. Give it a try and let us know how you go.
I can't eyeroll at this post enough. I'm actually dizzy now.
- Feb 21, 2006
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We could start by just allocating the public funds to the public schools and then see whether there is in fact a need for additional funding. There may be no need for an increase if the private schools didn't have their hands out for government subsidies.
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