We could. What would you suggest to then do if the wealthy schools remain the wealthy schools as per my opinion at the start of that post?
Public vs Private School funding
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Chief
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If teaching resources are more evenly distributed and public schools are funded properly, that's their thing.
But schools like Churchie in Brisbane aren't in particularly "rich" areas.
My kids primary school is in a pretty nice middle class area with good parental involvement and fund raising. It's already better off than many 30 minutes drive away.
It's already happening. Just the highest end is locked and gobbling up teachers to the detriment of all other schools.
This kind of supports the point I'm trying to make. If we reassign the independent schools to instead be public schools, the facilities they currently have would remain, and they would now be receiving a significant increase in state funding (as they're now part of the state system) with the school fee savings going back into the pockets of those that are generally already well-off. We would continue to have the schools that are much better in terms of facilities and parental contributions. These would continue to attract teachers away from other schools.
It may even change the demographic of the suburb the school is in. Potentially, people would look to move to the Brisbane area to have their children attend Churchie if it became a zoned school (much like the Balwyn area in Melbourne having fairly insane property prices, which is heavily influenced by the Balwyn High School zoning).
Chief
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So tax them more and spend it on poorer schools?
So the Education Department can assign teachers to schools that need them.
Yes it does happen. See State High and Mansfield High in Brisbane.
The point seems to be "suck it up, rich people will take what they want so why try to be fair?
Staffing allocation and resourcing should definitely be done centrally in the public system.
- Jul 27, 2013
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There are 400-500 schools in Victoria alone. You want someone in Melbourne offices to staff them like they did in the 1960's. No idea of local needs and context. Great idea
There are 400-500 schools in Victoria alone. You want someone in Melbourne offices to staff them like they did in the 1960's. No idea of local needs and context. Great idea
The alternative is clearly not working and leading to perverse outcomes. Where are the best teachers needed? If schools continue to be responsible for funding teachers, they'll continue appointing graduates over more experienced teachers so they can use the difference on other things.
The evidence is clear - devolved responsibility for staffing is not working in Victoria.
And the first local need is teach kids. 2+2=4 in every single square centimetre of Victoria.
Chief
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There's probably something to be done that lies somewhere between a free for all and the Soviet State.There are 400-500 schools in Victoria alone. You want someone in Melbourne offices to staff them like they did in the 1960's. No idea of local needs and context. Great idea
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If the private schools remain wealthy without receiving government funding and rely solely on fees and donations/contributions I don't have a problem with that. It's the receiving of public funds while public schools are under-resourced that I think is obscene.
But if they're government schools would they pay tax? Sorry, this is definitely one area that I'm weak on. I think they pay payroll tax but that's all I know of.
Not sure about this. In my perspective, this is a sure fire way to have teachers leaving the profession in even greater numbers if they had their choice of where they work taken away.
This is not the point I'm trying to get across. My point is that the education divide, in my eyes, is not as simple as funding. It's an easy thing to target, but I often don't hear discussion about what it will all look like afterwards (if we abolish the independent system). Yes, absolutely jack the funding up and give that increased funding to where it's needed most. But, in my eyes, we would have a more significant improvement in education outcomes if we focus on improving the respect of education/teachers/school as a country as a whole. How do we do that? That's an excellent question and one that I have thought of for a while without many lightbulb moments being achieved.
Unfortunately, I don't think the system will ever be "fair". For instance, I just can't see the same level of education being achieved in the more remote areas of the country.
And what if the parents aren't high income earners but just live in the area so are zoned for the school?
The danger with this, though, is we just promote further education divide than we already have.
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What evidence is that?
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I must be thick. Can you explain exactly how the gap will get wider if govt funding to private schools is reduced?
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true. Its probably moot until the supply of willing applicants is established anyway
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In the scenario I replied to the private schools survived and remained wealthy. This would likely only be the absolute top end of the scale of private schools. So, in my view that means only the absolute elite end up going to a very small selection of schools.
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i'm definitely thick. Ive no idea what that means.
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He's saying that we can't have a fairer system because rich people.
- Mar 16, 2002
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How about looking at other countries that have successfully created a public school system? With out the need for a private system… a system that spends less and gets better results for all!!!!
Isn’t that the aim?
That's not what I'm saying at all.
I'm trying to have conversation around this topic that is looking further than just, 'private schools are bad, so let's scrap them'. What does that look like afterwards?
But instead, I'm getting met with a whole lot of pretty low level responses from some (note, not all)... and yet I'm the one getting a lecture from others about 'bad faith' posting.
If you lot don't want discussion. That's all fine with me.
Absolutely we should. That would be the dream and one that I'd happily be in. I even mentioned Finland in an earlier post about this. To me, a significant difference between us and them is that they have a huge level of respect for teachers and education within their culture, something that I think we severely lack and is a main issue in holding back our progress in education.
I think we need to focus on shifting that AND THEN look at changing the education landscape. Without a change in our culture towards education, I just see other changes causing us as a whole to go backwards.
It's a scenario where funding is removed from private schools and some end up surviving based purely on their fees. In that situation, I'd guess that only the absolute elite schools survive, attracting only the elite families, allowing them to have a parent body who can fund even more extreme resource building and pilfering (top teachers), creating a bigger education divide.
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- Mar 16, 2002
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This cultural shift in Finland is well documented …. It happened because governments lead the change.
Oh and they don’t have Murdoch and chit media like we have.
And this is what we need. Cultural shift lead by government (I've mentioned this before). Then I think we can look at a full system revamp. I do worry that shifting our culture in this regard will be somewhat more challenging than in Finland and other cultures.
Without any cultural shift, I just can't visualise a positive education change accompanied with system change.
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