QAFL 2021

[smy1305]

Both WA teams have nga academies, but I’ve no idea how they work in with their clubs.

I know WA colts lose all their private school kids to PSA footy during the season. But I believe WAFL seniors takes precedence over PSA.

Not many kids play reserves. They’re either in the colts team or senior wafl team.

Wouldn't be a mountain of kids in these academies obviously. Suppose bottom line is that AFL aspirations gain traction among kids here bc of alliance with academies a lot of the time. If we just waited for the best athletes to gravitate to the sport then we could be waiting a while still. We need to give them some reason. Now anyone can dispute who should / should not be in these squads but I must admit I prefer the Swans model of a big base that captures more rather than less players. Identifying kids at 12yrs is fraught with danger. So is making parallels with a kids motivation and capacity to get to training if they live 100-300km away vs the boy who lives within walking distance. Its a massive distance that both academies take in and nowhere else in Australia would this be the case. Still think the academies have a pretty good strike rate all things considered and yeah, some might get missed but if they are capable they will get picked up later on.

 

[Tiger2000]

Without naming names, are you thinking clubs of the feline variety?
Points cap only aiding the clubs that can recruit and pay for the privilege. Reducing the points cap by 30% wouldn't impact the majority, but might even things up.

The felines are the only two clubs that charge at the gate for home and away games (Surfers to a lesser extent with a parking fee) and it has always irked me on principle. I wonder where that money ends up? I stand to be corrected, but surely some of it never finds its way into the books and "unofficially" lands in the pockets of some handy recruits?

 

[briztoon]

Wouldn't be a mountain of kids in these academies obviously. Suppose bottom line is that AFL aspirations gain traction among kids here bc of alliance with academies a lot of the time. If we just waited for the best athletes to gravitate to the sport then we could be waiting a while still. We need to give them some reason. Now anyone can dispute who should / should not be in these squads but I must admit I prefer the Swans model of a big base that captures more rather than less players. Identifying kids at 12yrs is fraught with danger. So is making parallels with a kids motivation and capacity to get to training if they live 100-300km away vs the boy who lives within walking distance. Its a massive distance that both academies take in and nowhere else in Australia would this be the case. Still think the academies have a pretty good strike rate all things considered and yeah, some might get missed but if they are capable they will get picked up later on.

I believe the WA nga academies have decent numbers of indigenous kids in them, at least equal to the Lions academy in terms of numbers per age group.

 

[Still Me]

Wouldn't be a mountain of kids in these academies obviously. Suppose bottom line is that AFL aspirations gain traction among kids here bc of alliance with academies a lot of the time. If we just waited for the best athletes to gravitate to the sport then we could be waiting a while still. We need to give them some reason. Now anyone can dispute who should / should not be in these squads but I must admit I prefer the Swans model of a big base that captures more rather than less players. Identifying kids at 12yrs is fraught with danger. So is making parallels with a kids motivation and capacity to get to training if they live 100-300km away vs the boy who lives within walking distance. Its a massive distance that both academies take in and nowhere else in Australia would this be the case. Still think the academies have a pretty good strike rate all things considered and yeah, some might get missed but if they are capable they will get picked up later on.

Smy the entire QLD Academy system is thwarted with issues and my son has now been a victim.

Despite being included in Academy last year as an over age this year Lions have at least 5-6 over age players and Suns had no room so he got flicked to kerb.

After 3 solid years of QAFL Senior Footy he can’t get a gig at VFL Level when numerous Academy Players getting gigs when they no where near ready and most don’t even play Senior Footy at QAFL Level.

These kids get in These systems and no one even contacts club to see how they are performing or even watches them to assess whether they should be actually still in there as years go bye.

As stated on this forum there is numerous kids playing QAFL that aren’t aligned with any Academy or VFL Clubs.

The entire system needs an overhaul and more contact with coaches at QAFL Level to ascertain what kids should be used as top up players at both Suns and Lions.

They wonder why they aren’t competing at VFL Level?

 

[LaggingBehind]

Wouldn't be a mountain of kids in these academies obviously. Suppose bottom line is that AFL aspirations gain traction among kids here bc of alliance with academies a lot of the time. If we just waited for the best athletes to gravitate to the sport then we could be waiting a while still. We need to give them some reason. Now anyone can dispute who should / should not be in these squads but I must admit I prefer the Swans model of a big base that captures more rather than less players. Identifying kids at 12yrs is fraught with danger. So is making parallels with a kids motivation and capacity to get to training if they live 100-300km away vs the boy who lives within walking distance. Its a massive distance that both academies take in and nowhere else in Australia would this be the case. Still think the academies have a pretty good strike rate all things considered and yeah, some might get missed but if they are capable they will get picked up later on.

Sorry SMY, whilst I understand, and support, the reasons for the Northern Academies, and I also acknowledge the difficulties mentioned with distance etc I have to challenge the good strike rate comment. Other than 2015 which was a good draft year for QLDers I challenge that we (QLD) have a significantly better strike rate with producing AFL draftees in the decade with Academies (and with 2 AFL additional teams) than the decade previous. And before I'm struck down the issue of drop out from local footy when players miss drafting after graduating from the Academy has never been appropriately addressed. How can these selected potential stars not find any satisfaction in local footy? In my opinion that's because there are no KRAs in the Academy on graduating kids still being in the game locally afterwards. KRAs solely based on draftees is the issue and as suggested I would call the strike rate there borderline ok as opposed exceptional.

In regards the other code potential players I'd love to see how this needle in a haystack actually works if the players isn't drafted. i.e what is the investment into the local landscape? i.e. some.basketball kid at state titles is identified and resources plowed into him. Also why does some athlete who doesn't love the game get the bells and whistles and is hand feed the coaching of the game, why can't a decent footballer be trained in the athletic prowess?

So I love the intent of the Academies and hope for its success in helping develop the game in the northern states. But watching half a dozen 'kids' attending a QAFL preseason training session where the majority of these kids are ressies level at best and are well behind the group in their footy development they have to opt out of running sessions due to their Academy workload simply says to them "You, without ever achieving anything, but based on potential, are too good for local footy".

I do not agree that the players do an entire preseason with the Academies and then much of the playing season removed from club culture (which has had room for improvement, and still does). Can the program be more inclusive with the QAFL clubs? Then maybe all this education and elite performance is spread further, and potentially to more dedicated players? The players then don't play for multiple teams and maybe they develop some other community skills. Maybe turn a sausage on the BBQ for the game they're sitting out of because they need to "rest" for a game in 5 days for the Academy game where there are 30 players on each side because of the fear they personally may be missed in the search for the 3-4 drafted.

Anyway, how were the local games on the weekend? Its a good comp

 

[smy1305]

Sorry SMY, whilst I understand, and support, the reasons for the Northern Academies, and I also acknowledge the difficulties mentioned with distance etc I have to challenge the good strike rate comment. Other than 2015 which was a good draft year for QLDers I challenge that we (QLD) have a significantly better strike rate with producing AFL draftees in the decade with Academies (and with 2 AFL additional teams) than the decade previous. And before I'm struck down the issue of drop out from local footy when players miss drafting after graduating from the Academy has never been appropriately addressed. How can these selected potential stars not find any satisfaction in local footy? In my opinion that's because there are no KRAs in the Academy on graduating kids still being in the game locally afterwards. KRAs solely based on draftees is the issue and as suggested I would call the strike rate there borderline ok as opposed exceptional.

In regards the other code potential players I'd love to see how this needle in a haystack actually works if the players isn't drafted. i.e what is the investment into the local landscape? i.e. some.basketball kid at state titles is identified and resources plowed into him. Also why does some athlete who doesn't love the game get the bells and whistles and is hand feed the coaching of the game, why can't a decent footballer be trained in the athletic prowess?

So I love the intent of the Academies and hope for its success in helping develop the game in the northern states. But watching half a dozen 'kids' attending a QAFL preseason training session where the majority of these kids are ressies level at best and are well behind the group in their footy development they have to opt out of running sessions due to their Academy workload simply says to them "You, without ever achieving anything, but based on potential, are too good for local footy".

I do not agree that the players do an entire preseason with the Academies and then much of the playing season removed from club culture (which has had room for improvement, and still does). Can the program be more inclusive with the QAFL clubs? Then maybe all this education and elite performance is spread further, and potentially to more dedicated players? The players then don't play for multiple teams and maybe they develop some other community skills. Maybe turn a sausage on the BBQ for the game they're sitting out of because they need to "rest" for a game in 5 days for the Academy game where there are 30 players on each side because of the fear they personally may be missed in the search for the 3-4 drafted.

Anyway, how were the local games on the weekend? Its a good comp

I think if you look at the strike rate of the academies vs say WA draftees then it looks ok imo. Not saying the system is perfect (because it isn't) and certainly one of the biggest issues is pumping up tyres of kids who have done very little with their career to date (in fact had a conversation with a lad at one stage myself who was swanning around at training, pulling various excuses about why he couldn't train etc and wondering why he wasn't playing senior footy at even Div 1 level that it wasn't me that he had to gain traction with but the blokes over there that had played 200 senior games and won 4 B&F's - that's where the faith had to come from bc they were the blokes who would be running out with him - they couldn't give a rats toss if said player was in the academy or even State squad).
I'm of the pinion that you teach the kids to love the game first and not focus on the extrinsic rewards at all. This will help drop out rates too. I know it might be hard being a Lions coach but you nearly have to steer away from talking too much about playing at the top level and what will be will be. Not that different from a coach talking about the result / ladder all the time vs the process of getting there.
Definitely agree with making the program more inclusive with QAFL clubs - I look at the quality of coaching (certainly head coaches) and can't understand why they wouldn't be consulted or leant on more than they possibly are.

Regarding the comp - excellent comp. Teams 1-9 are really competitive and the run home will be tight with multiple positions in the 8 still up for grabs.

 

[Miller1971]

There isn't a 100 in the U18s squad. More like 30. Of which possibly 5-8 are half a chance. Thats rep footy tbh and has always been that way no matter how much you want to slice or dice it. I'd be interested to know how they run things in WA or SA with their under agers. Obviously both comps much stronger than QAFL footy so playing well as a top ager near guarantees drafting but they don't run academies do they? So for the state team how long do they stay together and outside of the National carnival do they play anyone else?

They start with close to 100, then cut them adrift on a weekly basis, usually without any 'after sales support' either. There are guys playing VFL for the Lions and Suns, who go back to QAFL clubs and play 2s, or even Colts.

Here is the link to the 2021 in-take. 120 kids in the u19 program...!!!

https://resources.lions.com.au/aflc-bl/document/2020/11/19/6f4de6ff-f608-4368-8718-67fa9f6a052f/2021-L3.pdf

On the weekend, I watched the live stream between Morningside and Sherwood and the 2 best players on the ground were 18 year olds, neither of whom are in their respective academies. Kid called John Baker kicked 5 for Sherwood, and had 20+ disposals playing mid/fwd and I looked him up and he is still eligible for Colts! Nathan Colenso was the only reason Morningside weren't beaten by 20 goals, had 30+ touches through the middle and kicked 2 or 3 goals.

Meanwhile, the RESERVES game between the same 2 clubs featured multiple kids who have regularly played VFL this season, and both the Colts and Reserves games featured another 8-10 who are involved in the academy program.

This alone should set off alarm bells in the talent ID and development world, but I doubt they even have any awareness at all.

In reality they should be embarassed, but there is no geneuine governance or oversight in what goes on. They get pats on the back for the kids they find (not hard when you put together a group of 120) but there is no effort to identify who they have missed, and bring them in as appropriate. There should absolutely be consultation with QAFL coaches and footy directors where upcoming talent is discussed, identified and nurtured.

Can't tell me O'Brien, Lynn, Malceski, Fletcher, Moore etc wouldn't have some pretty good insight, in fact likely better hands on knowledge than the lunatics in the academy.

Both WA teams have nga academies, but I’ve no idea how they work in with their clubs.

I know WA colts lose all their private school kids to PSA footy during the season. But I believe WAFL seniors takes precedence over PSA.

Not many kids play reserves. They’re either in the colts team or senior wafl team.

Many clubs, including Melbourne based AFL clubs have NGA academies. they are supplementary to their footy development and there as a finishing school, not to replace their footy clubs. They go there on an adhoc basis when time allows, instead of at the complete expense of their other footy committments.

The Lions academy should be the same. Once weekly sessions in summer, and designed specifically not to interfere with club commitments.

Even as young as 12 and 13 they are now taking kids out of their club training, its disasterous.

 

[smy1305]

They start with close to 100, then cut them adrift on a weekly basis, usually without any 'after sales support' either. There are guys playing VFL for the Lions and Suns, who go back to QAFL clubs and play 2s, or even Colts.

Here is the link to the 2021 in-take. 120 kids in the u19 program...!!!

https://resources.lions.com.au/aflc-bl/document/2020/11/19/6f4de6ff-f608-4368-8718-67fa9f6a052f/2021-L3.pdf

On the weekend, I watched the live stream between Morningside and Sherwood and the 2 best players on the ground were 18 year olds, neither of whom are in their respective academies. Kid called John Baker kicked 5 for Sherwood, and had 20+ disposals playing mid/fwd and I looked him up and he is still eligible for Colts! Nathan Colenso was the only reason Morningside weren't beaten by 20 goals, had 30+ touches through the middle and kicked 2 or 3 goals.

Meanwhile, the RESERVES game between the same 2 clubs featured multiple kids who have regularly played VFL this season, and both the Colts and Reserves games featured another 8-10 who are involved in the academy program.

This alone should set off alarm bells in the talent ID and development world, but I doubt they even have any awareness at all.

In reality they should be embarassed, but there is no geneuine governance or oversight in what goes on. They get pats on the back for the kids they find (not hard when you put together a group of 120) but there is no effort to identify who they have missed, and bring them in as appropriate. There should absolutely be consultation with QAFL coaches and footy directors where upcoming talent is discussed, identified and nurtured.

Can't tell me O'Brien, Lynn, Malceski, Fletcher, Moore etc wouldn't have some pretty good insight, in fact likely better hands on knowledge than the lunatics in the academy.



Many clubs, including Melbourne based AFL clubs have NGA academies. they are supplementary to their footy development and there as a finishing school, not to replace their footy clubs. They go there on an adhoc basis when time allows, instead of at the complete expense of their other footy committments.

The Lions academy should be the same. Once weekly sessions in summer, and designed specifically not to interfere with club commitments.

Even as young as 12 and 13 they are now taking kids out of their club training, its disasterous.

Yep - can't disagree with any of that. Good points Miller. Mind you Josh Hunt isn't a lunatic imo nor is James Gellie or Jason Tornay There are good people involved in both programs.

 

[Still Me]

Yep - can't disagree with any of that. Good points Miller. Mind you Josh Hunt isn't a lunatic imo nor is James Gellie or Jason Tornay There are good people involved in both programs.

Dont think they are problem as they only following guidelines and structure in place.

QAFL is a credit to all the clubs this year as standard has been good and really still anyone’s flag in my opinion.

 

[Miller1971]

Yep - can't disagree with any of that. Good points Miller. Mind you Josh Hunt isn't a lunatic imo nor is James Gellie or Jason Tornay There are good people involved in both programs.

My understanding is that the like of Hunt have very little to do with who is in the academy, they just coach the kids that are delivered to them.

Probbaly half the problem is that the process in identifying who should be there is incredibly flawed and has no oversight from any key stakeholder.

 

[briztoon]

Still Me, smy1305, Miller1971 have you guys ever spoken to, or emailed the Lions head of football? Not head of the academy, but head of football operations.

If you believe there should be changes, the push for changes should be coming from people and parents and clubs involved in industry.

Also Still Me, word on the Lions board is that next year, the Lions reserves will be looking for mature age talent as well as academy kids. I don’t know if your boy has an agent, but might be worth trying to get his name forward.

 

[goalkicker11]

Still Me, smy1305, Miller1971 have you guys ever spoken to, or emailed the Lions head of football? Not head of the academy, but head of football operations.

If you believe there should be changes, the push for changes should be coming from people and parents and clubs involved in industry.

Also Still Me, word on the Lions board is that next year, the Lions reserves will be looking for mature age talent as well as academy kids. I don’t know if your boy has an agent, but might be worth trying to get his name forward.

That’s the point why does he need a agent when he’s playing good footy under the lions noses.

 

[briztoon]

That’s the point why does he need a agent when he’s playing good footy under the lions noses.

Just trying to help mate. I’m assuming most players use an agent when negotiating with an AFL club.

Discussion on the Lions board was that the Lions tried to sign some mature age players for the reserves this season (I’m guessing our ex players who were delisted), but they all signed for Aspley.

Maybe a proactive agent might have been able to push some of his clients forward to the Lions, after hearing the Lions missed their primary targets.

 

[Still Me]

Just trying to help mate. I’m assuming most players use an agent when negotiating with an AFL club.

Discussion on the Lions board was that the Lions tried to sign some mature age players for the reserves this season (I’m guessing our ex players who were delisted), but they all signed for Aspley.

Maybe a proactive agent might have been able to push some of his clients forward to the Lions, after hearing the Lions missed their primary targets.

We contacted Lions halfway during the year and they responded saying they had to play their Academy kids.

That’s where in lies the problem. There needs to be a pool of kids 19-22 that are allocated to Lions and Suns via their QAFL Clubs that can be used as VFL or Ressies top up players.

That would make more sense and give QLD kids a chance. For sure they still look at the good kids that they are looking to draft but playing kids that are numbers 10-15 in your Academy at that level isn’t going to cut it.

Anyway on a different note did anyone happen to notice the Aspley Facebook page that had the survey on it?

Been taken down now but looks like they definitely weighing up options for next year?

 

[Time to retire]

Aspley have been big under achievers this year. Started off ok and a couple of close losses, but way off the mark now. Should be doing better with the cattle they have.

 

[smy1305]

My understanding is that the like of Hunt have very little to do with who is in the academy, they just coach the kids that are delivered to them.

Probbaly half the problem is that the process in identifying who should be there is incredibly flawed and has no oversight from any key stakeholder.

Yeah but thats always just an opinion. Like selecting a team on Saturday. I would think that if I was the head coach and I didn't feel a kid was up to the grade then I would say so. And surely they go and watch local footy too - their opinions should rate.

 

[LaggingBehind]

We contacted Lions halfway during the year and they responded saying they had to play their Academy kids.

That’s where in lies the problem. There needs to be a pool of kids 19-22 that are allocated to Lions and Suns via their QAFL Clubs that can be used as VFL or Ressies top up players.

That would make more sense and give QLD kids a chance. For sure they still look at the good kids that they are looking to draft but playing kids that are numbers 10-15 in your Academy at that level isn’t going to cut it.

Anyway on a different note did anyone happen to notice the Aspley Facebook page that had the survey on it?

Been taken down now but looks like they definitely weighing up options for next year?

Are you talking about the one where they were essentially trying mustering support to come back to QAFL?

 

[smy1305]

Still Me, smy1305, Miller1971 have you guys ever spoken to, or emailed the Lions head of football? Not head of the academy, but head of football operations.

If you believe there should be changes, the push for changes should be coming from people and parents and clubs involved in industry.

Also Still Me, word on the Lions board is that next year, the Lions reserves will be looking for mature age talent as well as academy kids. I don’t know if your boy has an agent, but might be worth trying to get his name forward.

Well David Noble designed the program structure last year. He's a pretty good football person. Again these are just opinions, not silver bullets. I've said it previously but I think the academies get a pretty good strike rate. If you look at certain TAC sides it is not dissimilar.

 

[smy1305]

Just trying to help mate. I’m assuming most players use an agent when negotiating with an AFL club.

Discussion on the Lions board was that the Lions tried to sign some mature age players for the reserves this season (I’m guessing our ex players who were delisted), but they all signed for Aspley.

Maybe a proactive agent might have been able to push some of his clients forward to the Lions, after hearing the Lions missed their primary targets.

Maybe those mature age players were going to get paid more for doing far less at Aspley?

 

[Miller1971]

Still Me, smy1305, Miller1971 have you guys ever spoken to, or emailed the Lions head of football? Not head of the academy, but head of football operations.

If you believe there should be changes, the push for changes should be coming from people and parents and clubs involved in industry.

Also Still Me, word on the Lions board is that next year, the Lions reserves will be looking for mature age talent as well as academy kids. I don’t know if your boy has an agent, but might be worth trying to get his name forward.

I am not directly involved in any club football, just an interested onlooker frustrated by the process.

Has the head of football ever bothered to speak to a QAFL coach or football director or club president?

That’s the point why does he need a agent when he’s playing good footy under the lions noses.

Exactly.

Just trying to help mate. I’m assuming most players use an agent when negotiating with an AFL club.

Discussion on the Lions board was that the Lions tried to sign some mature age players for the reserves this season (I’m guessing our ex players who were delisted), but they all signed for Aspley.

Maybe a proactive agent might have been able to push some of his clients forward to the Lions, after hearing the Lions missed their primary targets.

They tried to sign Ryan Bastinac and Matt Eagles (and possibly also Corey Lyons would have made sense) - but offered up very little and they top up from the academy and don't pay those kids at all, and then send them to the middle of nowhere to train once a week.

We contacted Lions halfway during the year and they responded saying they had to play their Academy kids.

Want some reasonably mature talent, or just some players with runs on the board in senior footy that are 18+ ? They just need to watch 1-2 rounds of footy. Obsession with academy is stupid.

Nathan Colenso, Tom Baulch, Josh Coombes, Will Fletcher, Riley Greene, Ethan Kerr, Caleb Franks, Mitch Crawley, Will McKenzie all spring to mind, and thats just the blokes in Brisbane.

Yeah but thats always just an opinion. Like selecting a team on Saturday. I would think that if I was the head coach and I didn't feel a kid was up to the grade then I would say so. And surely they go and watch local footy too - their opinions should rate.

Has anyone here EVER seen Josh Hunt present at a QAFL Senior game ever?? (Or Colts for that matter, given thats where most academy kids are playing...)

 

[LaggingBehind]

Well David Noble designed the program structure last year. He's a pretty good football person. Again these are just opinions, not silver bullets. I've said it previously but I think the academies get a pretty good strike rate. If you look at certain TAC sides it is not dissimilar.

In fairness there are 12 TAC Cup programs

 

[LaggingBehind]

Enough about Academies. How about the QAFL comp games this weekend?
Sherwood still in the hunt for finals and have Wilston Grange, Morningside now have to win against rivals Mt Gravatt to keep their finals place, Maroochydore equally as desperate to win at home against a strong Redlands side who are still eyeing a top 2 finish, top of the ladder Labrador and Palmy always a arm wrestle, whilst Noosa trek down to Broady. The in form Surfers have the bye.

 

[Thommo 42]

I am not directly involved in any club football, just an interested onlooker frustrated by the process.

Has the head of football ever bothered to speak to a QAFL coach or football director or club president?

I'm a club president and never spoken to anyone from Lions or the academy other than Josh Hunt ringing me once to get Jack Briskey registered so he could train with Collingwood.

Nathan Colenso, Tom Baulch, Josh Coombes, Will Fletcher, Riley Greene, Ethan Kerr, Caleb Franks, Mitch Crawley, Will McKenzie all spring to mind, and thats just the blokes in Brisbane.

While I dont necessary disagree with you and your general theory...

Colenso, Baulch, Greene, Crawley and MacKenzie are all on VFL lists as far as I'm aware. Just not getting a game because the clubs they are at got around the development list rules by signing ex AFL listed players in the 22 and under category.

Makes sense, as they clearly trying to build strongest list possible and win games of footy, butnprobably not what the rule was designed for.

Has anyone here EVER seen Josh Hunt present at a QAFL Senior game ever?? (Or Colts for that matter, given thats where most academy kids are playing...)

I havent, but doesnt mean he hasnt been there.

 

[Still Me]

Are you talking about the one where they were essentially trying mustering support to come back to QAFL?

Yes Lagging did you see it as well?

 

[QAFLFAN]

I find it interesting that people make a statement about clubs but don’t actually name the club or players . Eg $100k salary cap claims or for that matter going over this $57k or $60k salary cap ..
As an outsider it’s interesting to watch the comments ..

just come out and say what you really want to say !