Play Nice Random Chat Thread: Episode III

[Snake_Baker]

No idea snake, like I said a simpletons view on vegan diets. I leave that level of analysis to the scientists.


Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

Let me tell you mate, most of the stuff that has been put forward, although well meaning, are "simpleton views".

Human nutritional needs & optimal metabolics are very complicated symbiotic processes that have no cover all answers. As I already pointed out, individual genetic makeup provides variance, and then there's individual gut microbiota profiles to consider also.

Truths are things like, drinking a glass of saturated sodium arsenite will kill you.
Falsities are things like, you need x amount of minerals only from x source for optimal metabolics.

Whilst I am a big supporter for the ethical considerations of animals, it has to be acknowledged that many of these falsehoods arise from animal rights activists.

 

[Royal Flush]

Let me tell you mate, most of the stuff that has been put forward, although well meaning, are "simpleton views".

Human nutritional needs & optimal metabolics are very complicated symbiotic processes that have no cover all answers. As I already pointed out, individual genetic makeup provides variance, and then there's individual gut microbiota profiles to consider also.

Truths are things like, drinking a glass of saturated sodium arsenite will kill you.
Falsities are things like, you need x amount of minerals only from x source for optimal metabolics.

Whilst I am a big supporter for the ethical considerations of animals, it has to be acknowledged that many of these falsehoods arise from animal rights activists.

If people want to sacrifice their life expectancy and quality of life for the sake of live stock, then good luck to them
They clearly don't realise their self importance within the animal kingdom
Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Snake_Baker]

It's all about the science mate.

"Feelz" aren't facts.

 

[Sopwiths North]

I agree vegan is a disciplinary lifestyle choice. Any form discipline is a good thing including religious.

Long term, vegan diet is not sustainable for human health and well being.

Iron from a vegan diet is not absorbed well. Will be iron defecient.

B12 , your gonna need a shot of it from the doctor

Calcium from a vegan diet not well obsorbed. And will have long term consequences through deficiency.

Omega 3 fats, forget it, you'll need supplements.

Children should never be exposed to vegan diets, and too early a trend to have conclusive scientific study of the harm it could cause their development.

A simpletons view on vegan diets.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

Yeah, my post wasn't actually about lauding regimented discipline, it was about the value of moderation, and particularly with respect to the consumption of meat and its effects on the planet, our health, and the welfare of animals.

Long term, the vegan diet can be perfectly sustainable and healthy. You just need to be a bit more mindful about making sure you're getting enough of the right foods into your body for it to be complete.

Iron: Agree that the heme iron in meat is more readily absorbed than the non-heme iron in plant based foods, but adding vitamin C is all you have to do. Eat some strawberries with your spinach, and you'll get full absorption. Iron deficiencies aren't all about diet either. Most women are iron deficient for a large part of their lives unless they supplement, and it has nothing to do with diet. Almost all my female friends are meat eaters, and almost all of them run low on iron unless they supplement.

B12: You're not "gonna need a shot from your doctor". Unless you're in that demographic of people who truly has trouble processing it by mouth, and that again includes meat-eaters. But yeah, B12 is the one thing you can't get "naturally" in a vegan diet, so it's important to eat foods like fortified nutritional yeast, or just take a B12 capsule each day.

Calcium: beans, nuts, and leafy greens are all excellent sources of calcium. Spinach and chard are high in oxalates, so may decrease absorption, but otherwise there's no issue with calcium in a vegan diet. On the flip-side, when our bodies process animal protein it actually leaches calcium from our bones (hence the high rate of osteoporosis in countries that consume meat and dairy as a large part of their daily diet.)

Omega 3: flax seed, camelina, chia, and olive oil are all excellent sources, as well as avocados, walnuts, and soybeans.

Anyway, like I said, it's all about moderation. As a species, we can't keep on chewing our way through as much meat as we do and expect to keep our planet alive. It's not sustainable.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Yeah, my post wasn't actually about lauding regimented discipline, it was about the value of moderation, and particularly with respect to the consumption of meat and its effects on the planet, our health, and the welfare of animals.

Long term, the vegan diet can be perfectly sustainable and healthy. You just need to be a bit more mindful about making sure you're getting enough of the right foods into your body for it to be complete.

Iron: Agree that the heme iron in meat is more readily absorbed than the non-heme iron in plant based foods, but adding vitamin C is all you have to do. Eat some strawberries with your spinach, and you'll get full absorption. Iron deficiencies aren't all about diet either. Most women are iron deficient for a large part of their lives unless they supplement, and it has nothing to do with diet. Almost all my female friends are meat eaters, and almost all of them run low on iron unless they supplement.

B12: You're not "gonna need a shot from your doctor". Unless you're in that demographic of people who truly has trouble processing it by mouth, and that again includes meat-eaters. But yeah, B12 is the one thing you can't get "naturally" in a vegan diet, so it's important to eat foods like fortified nutritional yeast, or just take a B12 capsule each day.

Calcium: beans, nuts, and leafy greens are all excellent sources of calcium. Spinach and chard are high in oxalates, so may decrease absorption, but otherwise there's no issue with calcium in a vegan diet. On the flip-side, when our bodies process animal protein it actually leaches calcium from our bones (hence the high rate of osteoporosis in countries that consume meat and dairy as a large part of their daily diet.)

Omega 3: flax seed, camelina, chia, and olive oil are all excellent sources, as well as avocados, walnuts, and soybeans.

Anyway, like I said, it's all about moderation. As a species, we can't keep on chewing our way through as much meat as we do and expect to keep our planet alive. It's not sustainable.

This is typical of what happens when politics grabs science in a head lock.

 

[Royal Flush]

Yeah, my post wasn't actually about lauding regimented discipline, it was about the value of moderation, and particularly with respect to the consumption of meat and its effects on the planet, our health, and the welfare of animals.

Long term, the vegan diet can be perfectly sustainable and healthy. You just need to be a bit more mindful about making sure you're getting enough of the right foods into your body for it to be complete.

Iron: Agree that the heme iron in meat is more readily absorbed than the non-heme iron in plant based foods, but adding vitamin C is all you have to do. Eat some strawberries with your spinach, and you'll get full absorption. Iron deficiencies aren't all about diet either. Most women are iron deficient for a large part of their lives unless they supplement, and it has nothing to do with diet. Almost all my female friends are meat eaters, and almost all of them run low on iron unless they supplement.

B12: You're not "gonna need a shot from your doctor". Unless you're in that demographic of people who truly has trouble processing it by mouth, and that again includes meat-eaters. But yeah, B12 is the one thing you can't get "naturally" in a vegan diet, so it's important to eat foods like fortified nutritional yeast, or just take a B12 capsule each day.

Calcium: beans, nuts, and leafy greens are all excellent sources of calcium. Spinach and chard are high in oxalates, so may decrease absorption, but otherwise there's no issue with calcium in a vegan diet. On the flip-side, when our bodies process animal protein it actually leaches calcium from our bones (hence the high rate of osteoporosis in countries that consume meat and dairy as a large part of their daily diet.)

Omega 3: flax seed, camelina, chia, and olive oil are all excellent sources, as well as avocados, walnuts, and soybeans.

Anyway, like I said, it's all about moderation. As a species, we can't keep on chewing our way through as much meat as we do and expect to keep our planet alive. It's not sustainable.

Like I said, all those vitamins can be obtained from a vegan diet, but the quality of obsorbtion, will be more likely to have a negative impact long term on human health then a positive impact or meeting the bare minimum nutritional requirements.
Nothing can come close to marine source omega 3fats.
This is why I wouldn't gamble on children's development with a vegan diet.

There is barely a food echo system on the planet that is purely vegan based. Sure someone will point out a tribe somewhere in the mountains of the Himalayas to disprove this idea.

When it comes to animal cruelty, I watched a doco on a sth American tribes that went out on the hunt for sloths. They caught, killed and ate them. It was disturbing and confronting.
But raising chickens for eggs and proteins, I can't see how this even comes close in comparison.

Animal activism of live stock seems to be come from a privileged position of first world nations that have an abundance of choice in food.

Sure , save the whales, dolphins, monkeys ect from commercial farming for human consumption.
But lay of the chickens and cattle.

I saw a a doco also on a tofu farmer.
It's a profitable crop for him. His major consumers are vegans and activists.
But he says he shoots everything insight to protect his harvest.
Birds, marcupials and any living creature that threatens his crop.
He kills to provide food for those that are activists






Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

[giantroo]

 

[Snake_Baker]

Adaptation at it's finest.

Biology wins again.

 

[Del191229]

Nowhere are the tariffs felt more keenly than by US soybean farmers. Such exports to China have dropped 70% from 27.7m tons in September 2017 to May 2018 to 7m tons in the same nine-month period in 2018 and 2019, according to an analysis by the University of Missouri.

“Words and Twitters and tweets, that doesn’t pay the farmers’ bills,” Gary Wertish, president of the Minnesota Farmers Union, told CNN last week. “That doesn’t solve the problem we’re dealing with.”

On CNN on Sunday, Navarro was presented with a comment from the president of the Iowa Soybean Association, Lindsay Greiner, who said government subsidies “are a poor remedy for trade”.

'I don't see a recession': Trump and advisers reject talk of economic disaster

Peter Navarro and Larry Kudlow dispute market indicators and insist tariffs are hurting China not US

www.theguardian.com

If Trump thinks him being an arseh*le to Ilhan Omar is going to distract those farmers, he's seriously deluding himself.

 

[Val Keating]

'I don't see a recession': Trump and advisers reject talk of economic disaster

Peter Navarro and Larry Kudlow dispute market indicators and insist tariffs are hurting China not US

www.theguardian.com

If Trump thinks him being an a-hole to Ilhan Omar is going to distract those farmers, he's seriously deluding himself.

Didn’t heaps of his voters come from rural areas, especially farmers?

 

[Del191229]

Didn’t heaps of his voters come from rural areas, especially farmers?

Yep yep yep.

Its not a thing like in Australia where you have to flip the voters, in the US it is about turnout.

If they decide "screw this guy, shouldn't have believed him, they're all crooks" and don't vote for him, then he's screwed.

 

[Sopwiths North]

Like I said, all those vitamins can be obtained from a vegan diet, but the quality of obsorbtion, will be more likely to have a negative impact long term on human health then a positive impact or meeting the bare minimum nutritional requirements.
Nothing can come close to marine source omega 3fats.
This is why I wouldn't gamble on children's development with a vegan diet.

There is barely a food echo system on the planet that is purely vegan based. Sure someone will point out a tribe somewhere in the mountains of the Himalayas to disprove this idea.

When it comes to animal cruelty, I watched a doco on a sth American tribes that went out on the hunt for sloths. They caught, killed and ate them. It was disturbing and confronting.
But raising chickens for eggs and proteins, I can't see how this even comes close in comparison.

Animal activism of live stock seems to be come from a privileged position of first world nations that have an abundance of choice in food.

Sure , save the whales, dolphins, monkeys ect from commercial farming for human consumption.
But lay of the chickens and cattle.

I saw a a doco also on a tofu farmer.
It's a profitable crop for him. His major consumers are vegans and activists.
But he says he shoots everything insight to protect his harvest.
Birds, marcupials and any living creature that threatens his crop.
He kills to provide food for those that are activists






Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

I'm not sure how we would "farm" whales, dolphins, and monkeys, but as for "farming" tofu - I'm assuming you mean soybeans - your statement that the major consumers of soy crops are "vegans and activists" is patently untrue. Roughly 70 percent of the world's soy is fed to livestock. Only 6 percent is turned into human food (tofu, etc.)

Re your reiteration of the tribes who hunt sloths - I'll reiterate that I'm not critical of animals being part of a naturally occurring food chain. That is normal, it's how ecosystems work and thrive. What I'm referring to is the industrialisation of meat production on a massive scale, and its very real and harmful consequences.

The fast food industry is a major culprit, and the people who eat at those places are hardly "the privileged". If you enjoy watching docos, check out "Meat Inc.", "Forks Over Knives", amongst others. There's some really informative stuff out there.

Our oceans have become our dumping ground and our toilet. The orca has the highest levels of mercury in its system in comparison to all other mammals, and we sit at the food chain apex just like them. I'll take flax over fish oil to get my omega 3's.

Here's a handy little chart showing the carbon footprint various foods leave:







And here's what happened today in Iceland. A ceremony, and a plaque laid, commemorating Ojokull, the first glacier lost to climate change:

 

[Royal Flush]

I'm not sure how we would "farm" whales, dolphins, and monkeys, but as for "farming" tofu - I'm assuming you mean soybeans - your statement that the major consumers of soy crops are "vegans and activists" is patently untrue. Roughly 70 percent of the world's soy is fed to livestock. Only 6 percent is turned into human food (tofu, etc.)

Re your reiteration of the tribes who hunt sloths - I'll reiterate that I'm not critical of animals being part of a naturally occurring food chain. That is normal, it's how ecosystems work and thrive. What I'm referring to is the industrialisation of meat production on a massive scale, and its very real and harmful consequences.

The fast food industry is a major culprit, and the people who eat at those places are hardly "the privileged". If you enjoy watching docos, check out "Meat Inc.", "Forks Over Knives", amongst others. There's some really informative stuff out there.

Our oceans have become our dumping ground and our toilet. The orca has the highest levels of mercury in its system in comparison to all other mammals, and we sit at the food chain apex just like them. I'll take flax over fish oil to get my omega 3's.

Here's a handy little chart showing the carbon footprint various foods leave:


View attachment 730039




And here's what happened today in Iceland. A ceremony, and a plaque laid, commemorating Ojokull, the first glacier lost to climate change:


View attachment 730041

That's one long bow, meat production and climate change. Lost all credibility with that one.
Kind of a new angle isn't it?


I'm not debating that fish oil is the best source of omega 3 , because it is.


Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Sopwiths North]

That's one long bow, meat production and climate change. Lost all credibility with that one.
Kind of a new angle isn't it?


I'm not debating that fish oil is the best source of omega 3 , because it is.


Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

Umm, no, not new at all, and completely factual. You might want to do a bit of research before you type these things. Honestly, I'm not trying to be snippy here, but please, educate yourself a little first. There's a lot of very good information out there.

 

[Val Keating]

I read/heard somewhere that animal farming (might just be farming in general) make up about 25% of the emissions causing climate change.

There’s no doubt that we’re farming and consuming way too much meat. It’s unnatural.

 

[Themanbun]

I know the discussion earlier was re: optimal diets for athletes, but since it had ventured into 'everyday average Joe' territory I'm going to throw it out there that the vast majority of people, and I'd say especially those on omnivorous diets, pay zero attention to the micronutrient content of their diet.

 

[Val Keating]

UNITED NATIONS UN Climate Change Summit 2019

UN climate change report: land clearing and farming contribute a third of the world’s greenhouse gases

The world has no hope of reaching the goals of the Paris Agreement without seriously reducing emissions from agriculture, forestry and land clearing.

theconversation.com

Emissions from land use, largely agriculture, forestry and land clearing, make up some 22% of the world’s greenhouse gas emissions. Counting the entire food chain (including fertiliser, transport, processing, and sale) takes this contribution up to 29%.

The report, which synthesises information from some 7,000 scientific papers, found there is no way to keep global warming under 2℃ without significant reductions in land sector emissions.

Land puts out emissions – and absorbs them
The land plays a vital role in the carbon cycle, both by absorbing greenhouse gases and by releasing them into the atmosphere. This means our land resources are both part of the climate change problem and potentially part of the solution.

Improving how we manage the land could reduce climate change at the same time as it improves agricultural sustainability, supports biodiversity, and increases food security.

While the food system emits nearly a third of the world’s greenhouse gases – a situation also reflected in Australia – land-based ecosystems absorb the equivalent of about 22% of global greenhouse gas emissions. This happens through natural processes that store carbon in soil and plants, in both farmed lands and managed forests as well as in natural “carbon sinks” such as forests, seagrass and wetlands.

There are opportunities to reduce the emissions related to land use, especially food production, while at the same time protecting and expanding these greenhouse gas sinks.

But it is also immediately obvious that the land sector cannot achieve these goals by itself. It will require substantial reductions in fossil fuel emissions from our energy, transport, industrial, and infrastructure sectors.

Overburdened land
So, what is the current state of our land resources? Not that great.

The report shows there are unprecedented rates of global land and freshwater used to provide food and other products for the record global population levels and consumption rates.

For example, consumption of food calories per person worldwide has increased by about one-third since 1961, and the average person’s consumption of meat and vegetable oils has more than doubled.

The pressure to increase agricultural production has helped push about a quarter of the Earth’s ice-free land area into various states of degradation via loss of soil, nutrients and vegetation.

Simultaneously, biodiversity has declined globally, largely because of deforestation, cropland expansion and unsustainable land-use intensification. Australia has experienced much the same trends.

Climate change exacerbates land degradation
Climate change is already having a major impact on the land. Temperatures over land are rising at almost twice the rate of global average temperatures.

Linked to this, the frequency and intensity of extreme events such as heatwaves and flooding rainfall has increased. The global area of drylands in drought has increased by over 40% since 1961.

These and other changes have reduced agricultural productivity in many regions – including Australia. Further climate changes will likely spur soil degradation, loss of vegetation, biodiversity and permafrost, and increases in fire damage and coastal degradation.

Water will become more scarce, and our food supply will become less stable. Exactly how these risks will evolve will depend on population growth, consumption patterns and also how the global community responds.

Overall, proactive and informed management of our land (for food, water and biodiversity) will become increasingly important.

 

[Royal Flush]

Umm, no, not new at all, and completely factual. You might want to do a bit of research before you type these things. Honestly, I'm not trying to be snippy here, but please, educate yourself a little first. There's a lot of very good information out there.

This is how climate change activists totally harm the cause and polarise the issue. You can find research disproving commercial meat production contributes to climate change equally to that it does.
we are really splitting hairs here (in terms of impact) , and while parts of the world suffer from malnutrition, It smells of a first world vegan movement.

How cruelty to animals and climate change are intertwined into a vegan movement on human food consumption is ambitious to say the least.

Dont get into Carbon Footprints, because it opens up a can of worms you wont be able to close.

 

[Sopwiths North]

This is how climate change activists totally harm the cause and polarise the issue. You can find research disproving commercial meat production contributes to climate change equally to that it does.
we are really splitting hairs here (in terms of impact) , and while parts of the world suffer from malnutrition, It smells of a first world vegan movement.

How cruelty to animals and climate change are intertwined into a vegan movement on human food consumption is ambitious to say the least.

Dont get into Carbon Footprints, because it opens up a can of worms you wont be able to close.

Actually, a "First World vegan movement" as you call it is the exact thing that would help us be able to feed the entire world and alleviate starvation. Instead of feeding 70 per cent of our world's soy crops to livestock that the First World minority goes on to consume, we could easily feed everyone on the planet with it.

Could you please post the research you allude to that disputes the connection between mass scale meat production and climate change?

 

[Royal Flush]

Actually, a "First World vegan movement" as you call it is the exact thing that would help us be able to feed the entire world and alleviate starvation. Instead of feeding 70 per cent of our world's soy crops to livestock that the First World minority goes on to consume, we could easily feed everyone on the planet with it.

Could you please post the research you allude to that disputes the connection between mass scale meat production and climate change?

Sorry mate, this conversations gone too science fiction for me

Crazy jehovah

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

[ferball]

Calcium from a vegan diet not well obsorbed. And will have long term consequences through deficiency.

Omega 3 fats, forget it, you'll need supplements.

Okay, calcium is not an "absorption" issue, it's a vegan dietary shortfall.

What is the difference in iron absorption profiles?

It doesn't have to be a dietry shortfall if you plan what you eat carefully. Also ... dairy - ie milk is considered a legit source of calcium in this discussion, am I right? What about Soy milk, even if its fortified with calcium?

Its not like many of us are getting our milk from its farm gate source. Odds are nearly everyone reading this gets their milk from supermarkets 90% of the time. (If it wasn't for some of the Gippslanders on or around dairy country I'd say everyone.) No different to buying soy or almond milk at a supermarket. Same with cheese, yoghurt and other dairy or dairy replacement products.

Youre we're all dependent on the same networks of production and distribution whatever your diet these days. Its one of the reasons its possible to make such a variety of vegan foods and distribute/market them so easily, even in places as (seemingly) unlikely as Dubbo or Casino. So you can buy vegan replacement products at the supermarket and get the same benefits from them that their non vegan originals have. If you consider that a supplement its a pretty sketchy definition of a supplement.

Omega 3 - replaceable with certain grains nuts and oils. You could grow seaweed or algae in a fishtank and extract your own oil reasonably easily if it was that big an issue. As easy as accessing fish products away from the coast or supplements of any form from a chemist.


Criticising supplements for vegans as some form of "artificial" without recognising the artificiality of the entire network of production and distribution that you are dependent on is short sighted. Those supplements will be as available as all the non vegan foods you depend on until you don't need them any more or the entire system collapses, and if that ever happens it won't just be the vegans in trouble.

I'm not a vegan but I live with one.

 

[ferball]

Like I said, all those vitamins can be obtained from a vegan diet, but the quality of obsorbtion, will be more likely to have a negative impact long term on human health then a positive impact or meeting the bare minimum nutritional requirements.
Nothing can come close to marine source omega 3fats.
This is why I wouldn't gamble on children's development with a vegan diet.

There is barely a food echo system on the planet that is purely vegan based. Sure someone will point out a tribe somewhere in the mountains of the Himalayas to disprove this idea.

When it comes to animal cruelty, I watched a doco on a sth American tribes that went out on the hunt for sloths. They caught, killed and ate them. It was disturbing and confronting.
But raising chickens for eggs and proteins, I can't see how this even comes close in comparison.

Animal activism of live stock seems to be come from a privileged position of first world nations that have an abundance of choice in food.

Sure , save the whales, dolphins, monkeys ect from commercial farming for human consumption.
But lay of the chickens and cattle.

I saw a a doco also on a tofu farmer.
It's a profitable crop for him. His major consumers are vegans and activists.
But he says he shoots everything insight to protect his harvest.
Birds, marcupials and any living creature that threatens his crop.
He kills to provide food for those that are activists






Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

Like I said I live with a vegan and some of your agruments are right on - especially the dependence of the whole lifestyle on western affluence. And shooting birds to protect your soy crops. But we have western affluence so why not use it to make as many things "better" as we can. Especially because the argument about land use. The land where I live is used for cattle. It could feed shitloads more people with fruit and vegetable production and still be used to produce some animal protein if we managed our society in better different ways.

 

[ferball]

This is how climate change activists totally harm the cause and polarise the issue. You can find research disproving commercial meat production contributes to climate change equally to that it does.

Have you got that research?

I would agree about carbon footprints and all large scale food production, vegan or not fwiw.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Like I said I live with a vegan and some of your agruments are right on - especially the dependence of the whole lifestyle on western affluence. And shooting birds to protect your soy crops. But we have western affluence so why not use it to make as many things "better" as we can. Especially because the argument about land use. The land where I live is used for cattle. It could feed s**tloads more people with fruit and vegetable production and still be used to produce some animal protein if we managed our society in better different ways.

Good luck changing diet.

Not that I horse in this race, but I always thought that certain minor militant elements have really hurt the vegan image.

Also don’t see the wider majority of people reducing their meat intake.

 

[ferball]

Good luck changing diet.

Not that I horse in this race, but I always thought that certain minor militant elements have hurt the vegan image.

Extremism isn't popular with the masses but faux health is and veganism is pure faux health whatever its real health benefits (i'm not arguing one way or the other either. I get enough of that shit at home.)

There is one ridge line here you could fill with avo trees and provide enough omega 3, 6 and 9 to keep half of Melbourne healthy for 50 years for example. (You could sail the avos to melbourne to lower the carbon footprint and enable them a good time to ripen properly.) This place grows good avos and you don't need those low oil commercial varieties to produce well.