Play Nice Random Chat Thread V

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ferball

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China's fishing fleet is their economic vanguard. Once countries do not stop them over fish, China will then say everything else is fair game, next will come the oil platforms.

The point is, America doesn't need the oil. Since they started to frack they unearthed so much oil that they are now a net exporter of oil. You no longer need massive concentrated deposits when you can flush it out from wide area.

Oil is such is a pissweak reason to kill millions of people and cause so much harm, it is going to be a short-term resource. The world is moving away from fossil fuels, if you are going to be fighting over any natural resource, it would make more sense to fight over rare earths, lithium, etc.
Fracking is not economically viable with the price under 55-60 bucks a barrell. Which is only happened again since the start of Feb. How much infrastructure shut while it was unviable?
 

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SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay

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During 1982 Boyce was interviewed by the Australian Channel Nine TV program, “60 Minutes.” He alleged that the CIA had engineered Whitlam’s downfall, and that senior CIA officials referred to Governor-General Sir John Kerr, who dismissed Whitlam’s government, as “our man Kerr.”

After the interview was aired on “60 Minutes,” Boyce’s revelations were systemically blacked out in the mass media.
...
Speaking to “Dateline,” Boyce again stated that the CIA had agents inside the unions who assisted the operation against the Whitlam government. He hinted that he had further information about the CIA’s machinations, but feared official reprisal. “Doing this interview is about as far as I’m going to stick my neck out,” he said. “My problem is that if I get convicted of anything, I go back to prison forever.”
There's been a complete official blackout on reporting the truth of what happened to Whitlam.

Boyce was reading the NSA cables from Pine Gap (not the embassy cables, my bad before), the actual super secret cables.


I know folks find it hard to process the notion that we are just a minor province of a distant empire, but that's what we are and always will be.

First London, then Washington, almost certainly Beijing in the next 50 years.

They only want our resources - from wool and wheat or iron ore and coal to lithium and copper.

They occasionally want our manpower to go fight in shitty foreign adventures from Belgium in 1917 to Vietnam in 1967 to whatever China will want us for.

They generally don't care who in charge of sending the resources and men as long as it is done reliably and cheaply.

They'll happily step in and remove that governing elite if they fail or threaten to fail, just as London did with the Rum Corps in the early 1800s, Washington did in 1975 and Beijing will do in the future.

If you honestly think Beijing led hegemony would see life in Australia be much different, you're kidding yourselves. They don't care that we play funny football and love the beach.

What, they are going to flood the country with Chinese migrants?

Er, the Liberal party already did that.

Oh what, they'll buy up our land and assets?

Er, the Liberal party already did that.

And it was Labor under Kaeting that set the ground for the Libs to do it, so it was a bipartisan sell out.
 

Tas

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Fracking is not economically viable with the price under 55-60 bucks a barrell. Which is only happened again since the start of Feb. How much infrastructure shut while it was unviable?


So what you are saying is that there is such an oversupply of oil that it has crashed the price so fracking is not appealing. But, if oil became more scarce, and it goes past $50 a barrel then the USA would have massive reserves to fall back on... so there is no need to continue these oil wars, the only people benefitting from them are those in the immediate who are getting kickbacks from it, it isn't helping securing their country at all.
 

Snake_Baker

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So what you are saying is that there is such an oversupply of oil that it has crashed the price so fracking is not appealing. But, if oil became more scarce, and it goes past $50 a barrel then the USA would have massive reserves to fall back on... so there is no need to continue these oil wars, the only people benefitting from them are those in the immediate who are getting kickbacks from it, it isn't helping securing their country at all.

Ferbs was just being intulechewall.
 

Tas

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Oil isn't going anywhere for military purposes for centuries.

The US already deposed a democratic government in Bolivia for its lithium.
Oil isn't going anywhere any time soon, but it isn't immediately scarce either, there are a lot of suppliers so you can be a western nation, a communist nation, a dictatorship and you can access oil. Pissing off America is going to make access more difficult.

The art of politics is stringing people along so foreign nations think you are playing along and this is something China did masterfully... before Xi. Then he came out and laid out his plan for world domination, that has so far gone down like a lead balloon. World domination is not something you announce decades in advance, it was just an invitation for everyone who enjoys the status quo to now work against you. Declare war when you are ready to start shooting.

Of course Morales was replaced with a puppet. Because, a) it is easy to in the Americas and b) you don't go around saying sh*t like "how nice would it be for the three South American countries to industrialise our lithium, as a people and as a state. From here we can decide the price of lithium for everyone." unless you want the CIA waterboarding you and your family.

You just make the deals on the side between nations in trade discussions and people will figure out your are price controlling when you are price controlling.
 
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ferball

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So what you are saying is that there is such an oversupply of oil that it has crashed the price so fracking is not appealing. But, if oil became more scarce, and it goes past $50 a barrel then the USA would have massive reserves to fall back on... so there is no need to continue these oil wars, the only people benefitting from them are those in the immediate who are getting kickbacks from it, it isn't helping securing their country at all.
Specifically I was saying Venezuela may be a more secure option than fracking if it comes to war with China.

But i agree with your general point.

I guess the point of oil wars is you get to use other people's oil and keep yours in reserve so you've still got some when everyone else runs out.

Dunno if there is an oversupply or not. There was a massive release of non US oil reserves in the last couple of years that helped drive the price below what was viable for shale and fracking. How much of the infrastructure is still there is the question. The world was alot more stable then so its unlikely these prices will drop again.

I have a mate who ran an oil exploration rig in the middle east for a while in Yemen in what they call the Rub'al Khali. It means empty quarter. I don't think there is an oil field there right now but he was adamant they found oil and plenty of it. The rig he was on cost over a million bucks a day and was there for over a year plotting out fields. That's alot of money to spend.
 

Kangaroos4eva

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There's been a complete official blackout on reporting the truth of what happened to Whitlam.

Boyce was reading the NSA cables from Pine Gap (not the embassy cables, my bad before), the actual super secret cables.


I know folks find it hard to process the notion that we are just a minor province of a distant empire, but that's what we are and always will be.

First London, then Washington, almost certainly Beijing in the next 50 years.

They only want our resources - from wool and wheat or iron ore and coal to lithium and copper.

They occasionally want our manpower to go fight in shitty foreign adventures from Belgium in 1917 to Vietnam in 1967 to whatever China will want us for.

They generally don't care who in charge of sending the resources and men as long as it is done reliably and cheaply.

They'll happily step in and remove that governing elite if they fail or threaten to fail, just as London did with the Rum Corps in the early 1800s, Washington did in 1975 and Beijing will do in the future.

If you honestly think Beijing led hegemony would see life in Australia be much different, you're kidding yourselves. They don't care that we play funny football and love the beach.

What, they are going to flood the country with Chinese migrants?

Er, the Liberal party already did that.

Oh what, they'll buy up our land and assets?

Er, the Liberal party already did that.

And it was Labor under Kaeting that set the ground for the Libs to do it, so it was a bipartisan sell out.
I could swear we have already debated the Whitlam dismissal, if so, feel free to disregard the below.

Curran was given access to a lot of brand new declassified stuff, which suggested that what Boyce had was basically CIA/NSA hand wrangling with no higher intelligence or political support.

https://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2015/s4246417.htm


JAMES CURRAN: There is a lot of paranoia and it takes several forms.

One of its most visible manifestations is the attack on the American ambassador, Marshall Green, who had been in Korea when a coup had occurred there.

He had been in Indonesia at the time that Sukarno had fallen, and was very much seen by some on the Labor left as the CIA's hatchet man.

Now, Whitlam delays for quite some time in coming out to defend Marshall Green - and this is a question, I think, of serious lack of judgement on Whitlam's part given the troubles that had plagued the alliance before that time.

And senator Bill Brown, the Labor senator from Victoria who makes this allegation against Green is absolutely convinced that the CIA is trying to set him up and is trying to destabilise the party.

He's convinced that Green was agitating at the 1974 election amongst big business, that they come out more firmly in support of the Liberal Party. There's a general sort of climate that the Labor government is under threat.

I've not found any significant evidence to show that the CIA were actively involved in the destabilisation of the Labor government, but I have found evidence which suggests that there was a serious effort to try and - as the put it - get at Whitlam.

But they pulled back from what they called...

MARK COLVIN: What do you mean, 'get at'?

JAMES CURRAN: Well this is what's left undefined. Now, it may well be in one case, towards the end of 1974, Whitlam was due in New York to go to the general assembly of the United Nations. They wanted to take him aside and, as one official put it, read him the facts of life.

But by this time, the Americans are less concerned about Whitlam's policy directions in Asia. They're less concerned about the intelligence installations.

That seems to have died down, and you even get a sort of a talking about the mellowing of Gough Whitlam. He's learned to be a dignified PM rather than an outraged MP.

He's learned that Australia's policy direction in Asia shouldn't always cut across that of the United States. So there's a settling down.


MARK COLVIN: How close do we get at this period to the end of the ANZUS alliance, and how close to the withdrawal of Pine Gap itself?

JAMES CURRAN: Well, what had worried the Americans was that Whitlam, in early November 1975, charged that senior opposition figures - Doug Anthony and Malcolm Fraser in particular - were in the pay packet of the CIA.

And the allegation related to the fact that when Anthony was junior minister in the Coalition government, he had rented his house in Canberra to a man called Richard Stallings, who later went on to be the first head, the CIA head, of the ground station at Pine Gap.

Whitlam, to cut a long story short, is threatening to go into the Parliament and reveal the name of this gentleman, and reveal the name of other covert CIA officers in Australia.

Now in many ways, the press had already done it for him in early November 1975. But still, the threat to go in there in Parliament on the morning of November 11th was real, and he wasn't going to pull back despite the protestations of the defence secretary Arthur Tange, who was apoplectic at this.

The CIA head of the East Asia division in Washington, Ted Shackley, was also very concerned, sent a strident cable back through to his counterparts in Canberra saying that "if there is a public revelation of CIA officials by the prime minister, then we have to consider, is there really a future to this intelligence relationship with Australia?"
 
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SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay

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Of course Morales was replaced with a puppet. Because, a) it is easy to in the Americas and b) you don't go around saying sh*t like "how nice would it be for the three South American countries to industrialise our lithium, as a people and as a state. From here we can decide the price of lithium for everyone." unless you want the CIA waterboarding you and your family.

You just make the deals on the side between nations in trade discussions and people will figure out your are price controlling when you are price controlling.
I see you're right up on these affairs hey.
 

Snake_Baker

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Now, Whitlam delays for quite some time in coming out to defend Marshall Green - and this is a question, I think, of serious lack of judgement on Whitlam's part given the troubles that had plagued the alliance before that time.
I suspect Gough was keeping a low profile whilst he was attempting to nationalise the countries resources.

Someone balanced film maker should do a doco on what would have occurred if he had succeeded.
 

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Val Keating

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Oil isn't going anywhere for military purposes for centuries.

The US already deposed a democratic government in Bolivia for its lithium.
Did you see the story where the Mexican cartels pushed out a company that wanted to mine the lithium in Mexico and have said that it’s there’s? Those cartels are more powerful then people realise
 

SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay

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I suspect Gough was keeping a low profile whilst he was attempting to nationalise the countries resources.

Someone balanced film maker should do a doco on what would have occurred if he had succeeded.
If he'd succeeded in nationalising the iron ore, my God, we'd be rich beyond measure.
 

ferball

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Did you see the story where the Mexican cartels pushed out a company that wanted to mine the lithium in Mexico and have said that it’s there’s? Those cartels are more powerful then people realise
They have mobile comms networks - their own towers on hills. They build their own infrastructure.
 

SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay

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Did you see the story where the Mexican cartels pushed out a company that wanted to mine the lithium in Mexico and have said that it’s there’s? Those cartels are more powerful then people realise
Yeah, those cartels have gone quasi state a while ago.

The Zetas were ex special forces like decided to get rich, and that was ages ago.
 

Kangaroos4eva

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Yeah, those cartels have gone quasi state a while ago.

The Zetas were ex special forces like decided to get rich, and that was ages ago.
Probably a few good reasons why Pablo lasted as long as he did.

I remember watching a doco a while back about how a lot of the ex-far-right paramilitary groups in Colombia from yesteryear are now some of the principle drug dealers in the country.
 

Kangaroos4eva

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I suspect Gough was keeping a low profile whilst he was attempting to nationalise the countries resources.

Someone balanced film maker should do a doco on what would have occurred if he had succeeded.
Definitely reevaluated his foreign policy a tad bit too after the sharp reaction from Nixon. He toned down a some of it by the end of 1974, but he still had a good go at whittling down foreign subsidiary influence, particularly in the mines.
 

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