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MUFKilda

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Oct 8, 2017
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Great fightback here. Especially from sids.
Yes, a decent total of 284, after being 122-8. Superb 144 from Smith saved your bacon, with a valuable knock from Siddle down the order. England will be kicking themselves for allowing a great position to slip away. It's going to be interesting.
 

joop

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Yes, a decent total of 284, after being 122-8. Superb 144 from Smith saved your bacon, with a valuable knock from Siddle down the order. England will be kicking themselves for allowing a great position to slip away. It's going to be interesting.
Unbelievable innings from Smith, gotta be one of his best.
 

joop

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Great knock by Smith, one of his best. We need to keep the Poms to under 350.
Yeh that’s the problem, after the first 50 or so overs it seemed to flatten out a lot so we really need the bowlers to step up.
Honestly one of the best days of cricket I’ve watched, to fight back from where we were was incredible.
 

Drake Huggins

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I think you are pretty biased in your views but doesn't make you a nazi. I know intellectuals and I have kids at school. There is no conspiracy to convert them into trans or gay, my kids are at a pretty progressive inner city public school. My daughter started at a Christian private school and the indoctrination into religion there as expected is overt, the sex education they receive at public schools is very generic and talks about gay people as normal but far from trying to make them gay against their will.

My wife is studying psychology and the data shows gay and trans people are more likely to commit suicide and suffer mental health issues. Making it normalised stops that. I had gay family friends growing up that we spent lots of time with and I never felt the need to run out and become gay and neither did my brother. We had a family friend who grew up with us, we knew he was gay by the time he was about 5, he was always wanting to play with the girls and dress up like one, he was born that way. We couldn't have straightened him up and he couldn't have converted us. I'm still friends with him, he's good guy.

There are right wing think tanks that push right wing agendas, the left have their own versions. You seem like smart guy, I would suggest you hold your views lightly, as you get older you realise that you can get very myopic in the way you see the world and extreme one sidedness is vary rarely makes you better off.

The works created under academia is a marvel of the western world, it is a knowledge base built on by generations, some studies are madness but like out-there philosophy and oddball studies of obscure things, they don't always seem like they add meaning, sometimes the meaningless stuff is the creative breakthrough that leads somewhere amazing.

The Grievance study is funny but like Sacha Baron-Cohen's show on America there are easy targets, it doesn't mean all academia is flawed and conspiring to poof the world up.


I know politicians, they don't take sides like the public, my Labor party friend is best mates with a Liberal party member. They hang out together in their social life. If you take sides like it's a footy club you are taking it too seriously. Both sides of politics have their good and bad. I like Democratic socialism because I think it creates a cohesive safe society. I understand others don't think it's fair.
Great post, Gringo. My parents grew up in Nazi Germany. My father fought in the Wermacht. His brothers variously served in the U boats, Marine, Luftwaffe and SS. Fou of his seven brothers perished in the war. Two did not return from Russia. He was a prisoner of war until 1949. He never got to return home, which was the former East Germany (DDR). Never got see his parents, sister and brothers after 1943. Needless to say our family lost everything.

My parents and siblings migrated here in 1958. I was an "accident".😀 My brother, who is 20 years older than me, left Australia shortly after my birth and returned to the Bundes Republik (West Germany) and did his national service in the Luftwaffe, met his future wife, had a family and has lived a very good life since.

He loves Australia and has visited frequently over the past 50 years. He lives in a Bucolic Bavarian village called Sonthofen, at the base of the Alps. His observations of Australia and how it has developed in that time are fascinating. He calls Australia the "Island Paradiso". Lucky country indeed.

Both he and my father agreed that the social democratic / Christian values based system has served Germany well. From rebuilding after the war, creating the strongest economy in Europe, to the often thorny issue of reunification, Germany has set a fine example to the rest of the world. They make great cars and have the best engineers. Stand up comics are thin on the ground, however.

My late father taught me that all political systems tend to oligarchy in the long term. He's lived under socialism, (Nazi's were socislists, something that horrifies lefties when you mention this inconvenient truth. The hint is in the name, National Socialist Workers' Party, or Nazi party to you and me.) communism, social democrats and free market democracy.

All have strengths and weaknesses. He gave top rating to our system based in democracy, free elections, capitalism and the Judeo -Christian values. Having experienced all of them first hand, his opinion carried great weight with me. As he often told me, what other country would welcome its enemy a decade after a devastating world conflict and provide the sort of opportunities he received? Canada was runner up.

He always had a soft spot for the poms and yanks as well. Honourable people he called them. Shame we had to go to war with them, he would often say.

I suppose my point is this. Germany is one of the best long term studies in rebuilding a nation and caring for its citizens. Liberal social attitudes and policies, combined with conservative fiscal control and management. The way they treat the elderly, and older workers provides a skbering comparison with the way we treat ours.

Americans show their patriotism by flying their flag on their houses and front lawns. Germans show theirs by voting for higher taxes which are pumped into welfare, pensions, free education and top class health care. Interesting.

Democracy, as Churchill famously said, "Is the worst possible political system, bar the alternatives." Maybe it was Kyle Sandilands. One of the two.

My point is, our adversarial system causes so much waste. By picking the best of the available systems, logically, you come up with the best solutions. Balance.

The biggest danger to the world is extremism in any form. Left or right. It is a golden rule of life, isn't it? All things in moderation, including politics and religion.

Unfortunately, today only the extreme gets noticed. A self perpetuating cycle of escalation, until entropy reaches its inevitable destination. Chaos. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I loved my late dad, but he's responsible for getting me hooked on the saints, my only source of anger with him. I barracked for Carlscum (I remember 7 carlscum flags) for a year, but he forcibly changed me. Building our home on a block in the shadows of Moorabbin didn't help. What attracted him to the game was the goal umpires' attire. He thought they looked ridiculous.

That, and a young, German blonde bombshell named Ditterich. Who could blame him? At least he saw one premiership. I was here, but too young to remember, other than my mother's fury at him, his Jewish boss and mates who all disappeared for a week! What went on in that week stayed a secret. I wish I had have gone along for the ride!
 

Drake Huggins

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Great knock by Smith, one of his best. We need to keep the Poms to under 350.
Indeed, tb. His last 10 Ashes innings have produced 974 runs at 139. Spooky. Exactly the same as Bradman's record breaking 1930 series. For once, the usually hyperbolic term, "Bradmanesque", is entirely appropriate.
 

Drake Huggins

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I really enjoyed trawling the pommy papers for their usually hysterically hyperbolic response. All viciously attacked Smith as a cheat and wrote how he should have been banned for life over "sandpapergate".

Nothing sweeter than whingeing poms in an ashes series, including my darling missus. The "Barmy Army" was in full cry and booed every milestone. Classy.

The "Barmy Army", boasted, pre match, how they would intimidate the aussies. Hilarious. A bunch of fat, drunken losers, singing the same songs they have for twenty years. At least it's better than Aussie, Aussie, Aussie, oi oi oi crap.

We haven't been this scared since the KISS Army was on the march!😀😀😀😀.

I have a song for them. Sung to something their demographic will understand, the theme from "Neighbours".

Failures!
All you pommies are such failures!
Denly, Burns, Moeen, and Bairstow,
Failures every one of them!
Failures, all you pommies are such failures,
We've got the Ashes and you'll fail again,
Dum, dum, da dum, dum, dum, dum dum, dum, dum, dum........! (repeat)

You've got to admit it's catchy.
 

StFly

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Also idiotic considering his "crime" was simple inaction as captain to curtail it, where it was Warner who wanted to and Bancroft that did the deed. If you're going to rib a bloke for being a cheat, you might wanna check he actually cheated instead of owning that he stuffed up as captain and did nothing.

Also, Warner, poor. Should have been out but wasn't, then was out when he wasn't. Patto's I can understand since he fell over his stance and had NFI where his stumps were but Warner did not have his head in the game at all so a straight failure. Jimmy Anderson only lasting 4 overs and less than an hour, if this game manages 5 days england are stuffed, as they have Broad, Woakes and part time as Stokes bowled poorly for the majority. Umps also had a shocker, so many incorrect calls and wides apparently weren't a thing for a few hours there.
 

sasaint

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Dec 16, 2006
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Great post, Gringo. My parents grew up in Nazi Germany. My father fought in the Wermacht. His brothers variously served in the U boats, Marine, Luftwaffe and SS. Fou of his seven brothers perished in the war. Two did not return from Russia. He was a prisoner of war until 1949. He never got to return home, which was the former East Germany (DDR). Never got see his parents, sister and brothers after 1943. Needless to say our family lost everything.

My parents and siblings migrated here in 1958. I was an "accident".😀 My brother, who is 20 years older than me, left Australia shortly after my birth and returned to the Bundes Republik (West Germany) and did his national service in the Luftwaffe, met his future wife, had a family and has lived a very good life since.

He loves Australia and has visited frequently over the past 50 years. He lives in a Bucolic Bavarian village called Sonthofen, at the base of the Alps. His observations of Australia and how it has developed in that time are fascinating. He calls Australia the "Island Paradiso". Lucky country indeed.

Both he and my father agreed that the social democratic / Christian values based system has served Germany well. From rebuilding after the war, creating the strongest economy in Europe, to the often thorny issue of reunification, Germany has set a fine example to the rest of the world. They make great cars and have the best engineers. Stand up comics are thin on the ground, however.

My late father taught me that all political systems tend to oligarchy in the long term. He's lived under socialism, (Nazi's were socislists, something that horrifies lefties when you mention this inconvenient truth. The hint is in the name, National Socialist Workers' Party, or Nazi party to you and me.) communism, social democrats and free market democracy.

All have strengths and weaknesses. He gave top rating to our system based in democracy, free elections, capitalism and the Judeo -Christian values. Having experienced all of them first hand, his opinion carried great weight with me. As he often told me, what other country would welcome its enemy a decade after a devastating world conflict and provide the sort of opportunities he received? Canada was runner up.

He always had a soft spot for the poms and yanks as well. Honourable people he called them. Shame we had to go to war with them, he would often say.

I suppose my point is this. Germany is one of the best long term studies in rebuilding a nation and caring for its citizens. Liberal social attitudes and policies, combined with conservative fiscal control and management. The way they treat the elderly, and older workers provides a skbering comparison with the way we treat ours.

Americans show their patriotism by flying their flag on their houses and front lawns. Germans show theirs by voting for higher taxes which are pumped into welfare, pensions, free education and top class health care. Interesting.

Democracy, as Churchill famously said, "Is the worst possible political system, bar the alternatives." Maybe it was Kyle Sandilands. One of the two.

My point is, our adversarial system causes so much waste. By picking the best of the available systems, logically, you come up with the best solutions. Balance.

The biggest danger to the world is extremism in any form. Left or right. It is a golden rule of life, isn't it? All things in moderation, including politics and religion.

Unfortunately, today only the extreme gets noticed. A self perpetuating cycle of escalation, until entropy reaches its inevitable destination. Chaos. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I loved my late dad, but he's responsible for getting me hooked on the saints, my only source of anger with him. I barracked for Carlscum (I remember 7 carlscum flags) for a year, but he forcibly changed me. Building our home on a block in the shadows of Moorabbin didn't help. What attracted him to the game was the goal umpires' attire. He thought they looked ridiculous.

That, and a young, German blonde bombshell named Ditterich. Who could blame him? At least he saw one premiership. I was here, but too young to remember, other than my mother's fury at him, his Jewish boss and mates who all disappeared for a week! What went on in that week stayed a secret. I wish I had have gone along for the ride!
Great post. Agree post war Germany is a great model. So are the Scandinavian systems, in particular Iceland. But also add Singapore. A lot to learn about selflessness and looking after the community. Also lived in the US. Beautiful country being destroyed by the ratbag Trump and his cronies #MoscowMitch. Sad
 

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gringo2011

Premium Gold
Nov 12, 2011
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Great post, Gringo. My parents grew up in Nazi Germany. My father fought in the Wermacht. His brothers variously served in the U boats, Marine, Luftwaffe and SS. Fou of his seven brothers perished in the war. Two did not return from Russia. He was a prisoner of war until 1949. He never got to return home, which was the former East Germany (DDR). Never got see his parents, sister and brothers after 1943. Needless to say our family lost everything.

My parents and siblings migrated here in 1958. I was an "accident".😀 My brother, who is 20 years older than me, left Australia shortly after my birth and returned to the Bundes Republik (West Germany) and did his national service in the Luftwaffe, met his future wife, had a family and has lived a very good life since.

He loves Australia and has visited frequently over the past 50 years. He lives in a Bucolic Bavarian village called Sonthofen, at the base of the Alps. His observations of Australia and how it has developed in that time are fascinating. He calls Australia the "Island Paradiso". Lucky country indeed.

Both he and my father agreed that the social democratic / Christian values based system has served Germany well. From rebuilding after the war, creating the strongest economy in Europe, to the often thorny issue of reunification, Germany has set a fine example to the rest of the world. They make great cars and have the best engineers. Stand up comics are thin on the ground, however.

My late father taught me that all political systems tend to oligarchy in the long term. He's lived under socialism, (Nazi's were socislists, something that horrifies lefties when you mention this inconvenient truth. The hint is in the name, National Socialist Workers' Party, or Nazi party to you and me.) communism, social democrats and free market democracy.

All have strengths and weaknesses. He gave top rating to our system based in democracy, free elections, capitalism and the Judeo -Christian values. Having experienced all of them first hand, his opinion carried great weight with me. As he often told me, what other country would welcome its enemy a decade after a devastating world conflict and provide the sort of opportunities he received? Canada was runner up.

He always had a soft spot for the poms and yanks as well. Honourable people he called them. Shame we had to go to war with them, he would often say.

I suppose my point is this. Germany is one of the best long term studies in rebuilding a nation and caring for its citizens. Liberal social attitudes and policies, combined with conservative fiscal control and management. The way they treat the elderly, and older workers provides a skbering comparison with the way we treat ours.

Americans show their patriotism by flying their flag on their houses and front lawns. Germans show theirs by voting for higher taxes which are pumped into welfare, pensions, free education and top class health care. Interesting.

Democracy, as Churchill famously said, "Is the worst possible political system, bar the alternatives." Maybe it was Kyle Sandilands. One of the two.

My point is, our adversarial system causes so much waste. By picking the best of the available systems, logically, you come up with the best solutions. Balance.

The biggest danger to the world is extremism in any form. Left or right. It is a golden rule of life, isn't it? All things in moderation, including politics and religion.

Unfortunately, today only the extreme gets noticed. A self perpetuating cycle of escalation, until entropy reaches its inevitable destination. Chaos. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I loved my late dad, but he's responsible for getting me hooked on the saints, my only source of anger with him. I barracked for Carlscum (I remember 7 carlscum flags) for a year, but he forcibly changed me. Building our home on a block in the shadows of Moorabbin didn't help. What attracted him to the game was the goal umpires' attire. He thought they looked ridiculous.

That, and a young, German blonde bombshell named Ditterich. Who could blame him? At least he saw one premiership. I was here, but too young to remember, other than my mother's fury at him, his Jewish boss and mates who all disappeared for a week! What went on in that week stayed a secret. I wish I had have gone along for the ride!

Great read but, Nazi socialism wasn't really actual socialism other than name. Hitler destroyed unions and was as hard right as they come. He was a text book fascist who made himself a chancellor king.

 

Enclosed_Animal

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Jun 14, 2015
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Same here in Sweden, it's brilliant.

Next 3 days are over 30. I actually bought a house with a pool and outdoor bar area 4 years ago that all my family and mates in Australia laughed at when I bought it and sent them pictures as they thought you only get to use it for 3 months and even then it isn't usually very hot. But the last 2 summers have been amazing and, as it doesn't get dark until late here, you get your money's worth if the weather is good.

Can't wait for Saturday. 31 degrees, I have friends over for a BBQ with the Saints scheduled to play at 1115 in the morning and a fridge full of cold beer.... it certainly beats watching the footy on cold Melbourne's winter night ;).
You (or anyone from the forum) is always welcome over mate: the thing I've found though is not many Australians have Sweden on their itinerary list when they come to Europe if they don't have family or friends here (there are a surprising number of "love refugees" from Australia here...quite a big community so you do meet the odd Australian) . They should though, especially in summer.

It is a beautiful part of the world. When my friends come over they can't believe how nice it is- I sold my apartment in Stockholm and moved out of the city and live in complete isolation in a great house in the forest pretty much but I am at my desk in the city within 50 minutes because the trains are so good making it pretty idyllic and, while I'd like to move back to Australia one day, I'd really miss it here now because of the amazing nature and lifestyle. Great work/life balance, plenty of leave etc.

I can't tell you how much I miss watching footy with people that understand the game though. I'm watching with a South African and Pom tomorrow (at least the Pom lived in Australia and knows the rules) but it's not the same so I'd always welcome a Saints stranger with open arms if they ever made it this far up north when coming through Europe. :)
Just this week I applied for a position in Oslo. Potentially there for 3 years starting 2020.

Assuming I get it, you keen to catch up for the odd Saints game (hopefully sometime in Septemberish)?
 

NarklesHelmet

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Just this week I applied for a position in Oslo. Potentially there for 3 years starting 2020.

Assuming I get it, you keen to catch up for the odd Saints game (hopefully sometime in Septemberish)?
Good luck!

Oslo's a great place, have a bloke I went to school with a couple of years below me who lives there and loves it.

Absolutely, if you get it, hit me up, would definitely be up for watching some matches :).
 

Enclosed_Animal

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Good luck!

Oslo's a great place, have a bloke I went to school with a couple of years below me who lives there and loves it.

Absolutely, if you get it, hit me up, would definitely be up for watching some matches :).
Great to hear mate! I used to live in Edinburgh and set up a pretty fun crew to watch sport with. Keen to have that outlet again (not to mention the excuse to get away for a weekend)!
 

Drake Huggins

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Great read but, Nazi socialism wasn't really actual socialism other than name. Hitler destroyed unions and was as hard right as they come. He was a text book fascist who made himself a chancellor king.

Just as all socialists and communists do, Gringo. Totalitarianism exists at both ends of the spectrum. The Nazis were socialists and very effective. Germany was a mess when they took over. Weimar, the Treaty of Versailles and world economic conditions condemned German society to an awful fate.

My old man recalled his dad coming home at midday from his job and giving his twice daily paid wages to his mum, so she could shop for food before prices pushed it out of reach by COB. People wallpapered their homes with banknotes because it was cheaper than buying actual wallpaper.

Hyperinflation was a nightmare, similar to what Venezuala is experiencing now. Massive unemployment. In thirties Germany, my parents told me people were too frightened to eat in public for fear of being robbed of their food. Cigarettes were snatched from people's mouths.

What a lot of people don't realise is that the communists nearly beat the Nazis into power in 1933. A cigarette paper in it. Pitched battles in the street, murder, and political mayhem were the norm.

From this emerged the socialists. I have read Mein Kampf in the original German. To say there has been a bit lost in translation is an understatement! A deliberate rewriting of history is a generous interpretation.

Here's food for thought. The Nazis introduced Arbeitsdienst, which was the mobilization of labour in the population. It created full employment and raised German Manufacturing to new levels.

The Nazis introduced the world's first national anti-smoking campaign. Hitler believed it was a degenerate habit. My dad being an athlete, never smoked. The trade-off and incentive in the military was that your cigarette allowance was paid to you as salary in lieu of the smokes.

Mothers were rewarded with free annual stays in health spas and cruises. "Erholungs" or recovery stints. Animal cruelty was heavily punished. The Nazis made today's PETA activists look like pussies when it came to animal rights activism. They had less difficulty killing people. Hitler closed many abattoirs, which he found disgusting. Auschwitz anyone?

Full employment soon returned. There were no homeless. Public Housing projects sprang up everywhere. The economic miracle saw Hitler awarded the title "Man of the Year" in 1938. This fact was removed from official records after the war and only re-emerged after reunification. The yanks, poms, and most of Europe beat a path to his door to learn his methods. Henry Ford, Walt Disney, the Royal Family, and senior British politicians were in the fan club. Rabid antisemites all of them. If not for the holdout, Churchill, we'd all be eating sauerkraut and sausages and speaking German.

The Russians were major trading partners until Hitler double-crossed them. Caucasus oil was too great a temptation. Sound familiar?

Dad always said it wasn't the Russian winter that destroyed Germany's chances of victory. It was Hitler breaking his pact with the Soviets. From being the major supplier of wheat, steel, and oil, they simply withdrew. Can't win a war without bullets, weapons, food or fuel. In many towns in the former Soviet Union, the Wehrmacht were greeted as heroes, the swastika and hammer and sickle side by side on public buildings. That changed in 1941.

He would know. He was there. Sure the freezing conditions played their part, but the lack of resources issue played a greater part.

In the end, the policies of the Nazis were true to their socialist roots. I run a training exercise in the corporate space, where I trot out their policies and ask people if they are left or right and if they would support these policies. Of course, I don't tell them the origin. It's amazing how many endorse and praise them until the big reveal. Jaws then hit tables.

In the end, who was the greater fascist or totalitarian? Stalin? Mao? Hitler? Same creatures, same fundamentals, different labels. Being in the "right side" of history helps as well. Remember Lech Walesa, Gringo? What did his Soviet masters do about his attempts to unionize the trades and docks? Mao? His record in human rights abuses speaks for itself. Unions? Start them at your peril, under a totalitarian regime.

It might be time to have that dinner, complete with copious amounts of red. It would be fascinating to learn more about your beliefs and how they were formed. Always willing to listen, brother.
 
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Drake Huggins

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What about those umpires in the test match? Another litany of howlers. Worse than the AFL umpires. Time to hand the whole thing over to technology. One umpire at the bowlers end to call no balls. The incumbents can't even get that right so I'd do away with them altogether. Send appeals to the video bunker. The video evidence is far more accurate than the humans will ever be. Evidence is all the howlers the humans make.

I know it would seem strange not to have an official on the ground, but the technology is greater than the human. AI the future of sports umpiring? Errors would be minimal compared to the fiasco we've seen in this test so far. Save on wages, errors etc. What do we need the square leg umpire for anyway? You know it makes sense.
 
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Drake Huggins

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Great read but, Nazi socialism wasn't really actual socialism other than name. Hitler destroyed unions and was as hard right as they come. He was a text book fascist who made himself a chancellor king.

I found this quote that you might find interesting, Gringo2011.

"We are socialists. We are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and are determined to destroy this system under all conditions." – Adolf Hitler May 1, 1937 Speech in the Reichstag (German parliament) It was Hitler or Kyle Sandilands. One of the two!

Sounds a lot like what the modern-day socialist would say, don't you think? I know we are getting into semantics here, but my parents were deeply suspicious and contemptuous of socialism and communism. Those two systems, German and Russian, combined to rob them of everything, the consequences of which still echo down the decades for my family to today. My father described Hitler as "that socialist idiot" and a hypocrite.
 
Last edited:

gringo2011

Premium Gold
Nov 12, 2011
25,261
55,551
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Just as all socialists and communists do, Gringo. Totalitarianism exists at both ends of the spectrum. The Nazis were socialists and very effective. Germany was a mess when they took over. Weimar, the Treaty of Versailles and world economic conditions condemed German society to an awful fate.

My old man recalled his dad coming home at midday from his job and giving his twice daily paid wages to his mum, so she could shop for food before prices pushed it out of reach by COB. People wallpapered their homes with bank notes because it was cheaper than buying actual wallpaper.

Hyperinflation was a nightmare, similar to what Venezuala is experiencing now. Massive unemployment. In thirties Germany, my parents told me people were too frightened to eat in public for fear of being robbed of their food. Cigarettes were snatched from people's mouths.

What a lot of people don't realise is that the communists nearly beat the Nazis into power in 1933. A cigarette paper in it. Pitched battles in the street, murder and political mayhem were the norm.

From this emerged the socialists. I have read Mein Kampf in the original German. To say there has been a bit lost in translation is an understatement! A deliberate rewriting of history is a generous interpretation.

Here's food for thought. The Nazis introduced Arbeitsdienst, which was the mobilisation of labour in the population. It created full employment and raised German Manufacturing to new levels.

The Nazis introduced the world's first national anti-smoking campaign. Hitler believed it was a degenerate habit. My dad being an athlete, never smoked. The trade off and incentive in the military was that your cigarette allowance was paid to you as salary in lieu of the smokes.

Mother's were rewarded with free annual stays in health spas and cruises. "Erholungs" or recovery stints. Animal cruelty was heavily punished. The Nazis made today's PETA activists look like pussies when it came to animal rights activism. They had less difficulty killing people. Hitler closed many abbottoirs, which he found disgusting. Auschwitz anyone?

Full employment soon returned. There were no homeless. Public Housing projects sprang up everywhere. The economic miracle saw Hitler awarded the title "Man of the Year" in 1938. This fact was removed from official records after the war and only re-emerged after reunification. The yanks poms, and most of Europe beat a path to his door to learn his methods. Henry Ford, Walt Disney, the Royal Family and senior British politicians were in the fan club. Rabid anti semites all of them. If not for the hold out, Churchill, we'd all be eating saurkraut and sausages and speaking German.

The Russians were major trading partners until Hitler double crossed them. Caucasus oil was too great a temptation. Sound familiar?

Dad always said it wasn't the Russian winter that destroyed Germany's chances of victory. It was Hitler breaking his pact with the Soviets. From being the major supplier of wheat, steel and Oil, they simply withdrew. Can't win a war without bullets, weapons, food or fuel. In many towns in the former Siviet Union, the Wehrmacht were greeted as heroes, the swastika and hamner and sickle side by side on public buildings. That changed in 1941.

He would know. He was there. Sure the freezing conditions played their part, but the lack of resources issue played a greater part.

In the end the policies of the Nazis were true to their socialist roots. I run a training exercise in the corporate space, where I trot out their policies and ask people if they are left or right, and if they would support these policies. Of course I don't tell them the origin. It's amazing how many endorse and praise them until the big reveal. Jaws then hit tables.

In the end, who was the greater fascist or totalitarian? Stalin? Mao? Hitler. Same creatures, same fundamentals, different labels. Being in the "right side" of history helps as well. Remember Lech Walesa, Gringo? What did his Soviet masters do about his attempts to unionise the trades and docks? Mao? His record in human rights abuses speaks for itself. Unions? Start them at your peril, in reality.

It might be time to have that dinner, complete with copious amounts of red. It would be fascinating to learn more about your beliefs and how they were formed. Always willing to listen, brother.

I have read a fair bit on the nazis and their policies, they used the socialist call to take power but only long enough to take power away from unions and workers once they had won it and then became totalitarian. Agree on the Russians. Amazingly late 19th and early 20th century Germany were proper progressives, vegetarianism, sanitariums where they used the sun to change moods or illnesses, psychoanalysis, manufacturing, design etc. The reparations from WWI meant they were decimated in what they were able to achieve afterwards. Weimar republic had most of that progressive stuff in it, Hitler stole the progression and claimed it for his modern republic. The Nazis used socialism to rise to power at a time when there was no work, as soon as they could they put in slave labour that wasn't paid, I don't think that was a union idea.

Definitely despots, fascists, totalitarians are cut from the same cloth, it needs a whole lot to go right but all have a leader with all the worst traits in one package. Trump has some is the scary thing, not that I'm saying he'll ever get t that level. Countries like the US are happy to rule by financial imperialism rather than invade. Interestingly western democracies only really became a thing in the 19th century and so far there is no real evidence that the people choose any better than chance. Much like St Kilda choosing coaches. It's a shame we have come to a fork in the road with the capitalist system and the manipulation and distractions seem to have lead us up a the wrong road.

I worked in Germany and it's really hard to imagine how such a sane stable nation went so far down a dark road. The Hitlers never just wake up one day and become popular, there is always a lead up. I visited Neuschwanstein castle last time I was there. You look at Ludwig II and his crazy history glossing and dreams of German supremacy based on the sentimentality of Wagner and De Neibelung and other sagas. It was already rising then. Hitler just happened to land at the right time where the people were so broken, a despot that would manipulate them for his own gain while tickling their balls worked a treat.

Disagree with unions, plenty of what we have now was because of union people taking a hit for future generations. My family were British aristocracy and got rich off others toil, it would have been better for me if it never happened but not all unions are bad. They get a bad rep but they are no different to anywhere where there is power. Police, governments even schools.

It's amazing how many people don't see the erosion, Trump refers to Central Americans as vermin and an infestation. We have people in prison camps for "our safety", not many ever question it. We forget our own genocidal history etc.

Hyperinflation was insane, I ave some steps I inherited and there are old Weimar stamps that have been overprinted from like Pfennig to 100,000s of marks. Venezuela is scary because they were a perfect storm of irresponsible financial management, US trade sanctions for nationalising their oil industry and oil prices crashing. They learnt not to mess with US financial interests the hard way. Ironically the policy has sent them to the US where they are considered an infestation. It's crazy world.

Anyway that was a bit more of an essay than I meant it to be, the short of it is that I don'r agree the Nazis were ever true socialists in anything other than an opportunist way. Progressive policy is considered left wing but I think it was also a symptom of modernisation in the west. Communism was always the yin to capitalism's yang and without communism the right would have been more hard arsed and not needed to play socialist.
 

gringo2011

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I found this quote that you might find interesting, Gringo2011.

"We are socialists. We are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and are determined to destroy this system under all conditions." – Adolf Hitler May 1, 1937 Speech in the Reichstag (German parliament) It was Hitler or Kyle Sandilands. One of the two!

Sounds a lot like what the modern-day socialist would say, don't you think? I know we are getting into semantics here, but my parents were deeply suspicious and contemptuous of socialism and communism. Those two systems, German and Russian, combined to rob them of everything, the consequences of which still echo down the decades for my family to today. My father described Hitler as "that socialist idiot" and a hypocrite.

Absolutely he used the terminology of the socialists to get into power. As soon as he had power he abandoned the unions and put the leaders in jail. He was an imperialist narcissist who played every one to get where he wanted to go. I read recently Trumps ex wife said he slept with a copy of the speeches of Hitler next to his bed. Politicians lying for they own gain isn't new.
 

Drake Huggins

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I have read a fair bit on the nazis and their policies, they used the socialist call to take power but only long enough to take power away from unions and workers once they had won it and then became totalitarian. Agree on the Russians. Amazingly late 19th and early 20th century Germany were proper progressives, vegetarianism, sanitariums where they used the sun to change moods or illnesses, psychoanalysis, manufacturing, design etc. The reparations from WWI meant they were decimated in what they were able to achieve afterwards. Weimar republic had most of that progressive stuff in it, Hitler stole the progression and claimed it for his modern republic. The Nazis used socialism to rise to power at a time when there was no work, as soon as they could they put in slave labour that wasn't paid, I don't think that was a union idea.

Definitely despots, fascists, totalitarians are cut from the same cloth, it needs a whole lot to go right but all have a leader with all the worst traits in one package. Trump has some is the scary thing, not that I'm saying he'll ever get t that level. Countries like the US are happy to rule by financial imperialism rather than invade. Interestingly western democracies only really became a thing in the 19th century and so far there is no real evidence that the people choose any better than chance. Much like St Kilda choosing coaches. It's a shame we have come to a fork in the road with the capitalist system and the manipulation and distractions seem to have lead us up a the wrong road.

I worked in Germany and it's really hard to imagine how such a sane stable nation went so far down a dark road. The Hitlers never just wake up one day and become popular, there is always a lead up. I visited Neuschwanstein castle last time I was there. You look at Ludwig II and his crazy history glossing and dreams of German supremacy based on the sentimentality of Wagner and De Neibelung and other sagas. It was already rising then. Hitler just happened to land at the right time where the people were so broken, a despot that would manipulate them for his own gain while tickling their balls worked a treat.

Disagree with unions, plenty of what we have now was because of union people taking a hit for future generations. My family were British aristocracy and got rich off others toil, it would have been better for me if it never happened but not all unions are bad. They get a bad rep but they are no different to anywhere where there is power. Police, governments even schools.

It's amazing how many people don't see the erosion, Trump refers to Central Americans as vermin and an infestation. We have people in prison camps for "our safety", not many ever question it. We forget our own genocidal history etc.

Hyperinflation was insane, I ave some steps I inherited and there are old Weimar stamps that have been overprinted from like Pfennig to 100,000s of marks. Venezuela is scary because they were a perfect storm of irresponsible financial management, US trade sanctions for nationalising their oil industry and oil prices crashing. They learnt not to mess with US financial interests the hard way. Ironically the policy has sent them to the US where they are considered an infestation. It's crazy world.

Anyway that was a bit more of an essay than I meant it to be, the short of it is that I don'r agree the Nazis were ever true socialists in anything other than an opportunist way. Progressive policy is considered left wing but I think it was also a symptom of modernisation in the west. Communism was always the yin to capitalism's yang and without communism the right would have been more hard arsed and not needed to play socialist.
I didn't mean to give the impression I'm anti-union, Gringo. Far from it. Unions have achieved far more than what they're given credit for. I think people forget how poor working conditions and pay levels were for the working classes.
Through effort and persistence, our society is more egalitarian and living standards have improved.

Unions came into existence through dire necessity. As Marcus Aurelius said, "Without discomfort and conflict we cease to learn and develop. The obstacle in the way, eventually becomes the way." I think it was him, but it might have been Grant Denyer. Not sure.

Trump's original family name was Trumpf. Donnie's crooked dad changed it. Having a German name in the US was bad for business between the world wars.

His grandfather came from Bavaria, one of the strongholds of early Nazism. He dodged national service for the Bavarian army back in the late 19th century, so upon his return after making his fortune in the states, he was promptly deported!

Apparently grandad was a kind and generous man. Trump's father turned out to be a crook, gaining favours and wealth on the backs of corrupt government officials.


The apple didn't fall far from the tree in Don's case. Agree with you about the tactics and behavioural traits Trumpf displays now. It reminds me of someone.......
 
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MUFKilda

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Great read but, Nazi socialism wasn't really actual socialism other than name. Hitler destroyed unions and was as hard right as they come. He was a text book fascist who made himself a chancellor king.

The first people the Nazis went after taking power was the left: the Social Democrats, KPD and trade unionists. They were the earliest inhabitants of the concentration camp system. Just because their party was named the National Socialists, we must be clear there was nothing socialist about the Nazis, and it's important to note that National is the first word in the party name. Socialism is by definition internationalist; the Nazi were ultra nationalist and Marxism (and the USSR in particular) was their nemesis. The USSR also called itself socialist and was no such thing, but that's another story. No socialist can base their views upon racial hierarchy and social Darwinism. National Socialism bore no relation at all to anything remotely left wing, despite the claims of some far right websites in recent years, which purposely misconstrue political theory.
 

MUFKilda

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I found this quote that you might find interesting, Gringo2011.

"We are socialists. We are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and are determined to destroy this system under all conditions." – Adolf Hitler May 1, 1937 Speech in the Reichstag (German parliament) It was Hitler or Kyle Sandilands. One of the two!

Sounds a lot like what the modern-day socialist would say, don't you think? I know we are getting into semantics here, but my parents were deeply suspicious and contemptuous of socialism and communism. Those two systems, German and Russian, combined to rob them of everything, the consequences of which still echo down the decades for my family to today. My father described Hitler as "that socialist idiot" and a hypocrite.
The Nazis regarded both capitalism and Marxism as Jewish conspiracies for world domination, which certainly isn't socialism. Furthermore, the Nazis didn't try to destroy capitalism in Germany; rather they used the classical fascist model of harnessing big business towards what they perceived the national interest., namely military build up. Private enterprise was not prohibited, unless it was Jewish private enterprise. it's essential to always remember they advocated competition in all forms, ultimately the competition between the races for survival. The Nazi critique of any political idea was always rooted in race and nationality.
 

SaintsSeptember

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Absolutely he used the terminology of the socialists to get into power. As soon as he had power he abandoned the unions and put the leaders in jail. He was an imperialist narcissist who played every one to get where he wanted to go. I read recently Trumps ex wife said he slept with a copy of the speeches of Hitler next to his bed. Politicians lying for they own gain isn't new.
Communism would be great if no-one was greedy and everyone was nice to everyone else.
 

gringo2011

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Communism would be great if no-one was greedy and everyone was nice to everyone else.

Also if the people who used an uprising to obtain power didn't get paranoid about more uprisings and oppress or kill any potential up-risers. There definitely seems to be an inbuilt greedy campaigner gene in humanity.
 
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