Discussion Random Discussion

[VDS66]

I agree with the social intent of the policy - older generations amassing large property portfolios to reduce tax and pricing younger generations out of the market does not fit comfortably to me. Economically, the policy seems to be coming at a time where everything is balanced fairly perilously - hope that you are right and it will be fine.

I will also add that it's not just the social impact.

It's about fixing structural issues within the budget. That's our biggest problem.

Costello had revenue coming out of his arse during the mining boom.

By giving tax cuts (both parties to blame in 2007) and then offering the 50% CGT discount, they embedded long term revenue losses. These are annual recurring losses and are only affordable when revenue is up.

When it isn't, you still have to give away the tax concessions regardless, and you go into deficit... Which we have seen post GFC

Then you have to cut essential services of borrow and increase debt, which is what we have witnessed.

Cutting NG and reigning in CGT means that you don't have to pay for something regardless of revenue levels.

 

[Roylion]

A student studying "Further Mathematics" may well have got 40 or higher.

Then study Further Maths. A raw score of 40 (in itself a ranking of students studying Further Maths) was scaled down to 38 in 2017 for the purposes of calculating the ATAR.

In 2017 a score of 30 (the mean score for any study) in Further Maths fell to 27 for the purposes of calculating the ATAR
In 2017 a score of 30 (the mean score for any study) in Maths Methods rose to 35 for the purposes of calculating the ATAR

So a student studying Maths Methods and gaining the mean score of 30 for that study will be lifted to 35, while a student studying Further Maths and gaining a score of 40 (which means they finished in the top 9% of students for Further Maths in the state), will be reduced to 38 for the purposes of calculating the ATAR.

But you seem to think the system is good. I think it sucks.

Why? Study scores and ATARs are just rankings for the purpose of university course selection.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/p...s/news-story/4ccf75d67435455e9464dda275208caa

So do some others.

Students trying to maximise their state ranking? Yes? And so?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Then study Further Maths. A raw score of 40 (in itself a ranking of students studying Further Maths) was scaled down to 38 in 2017 for the purposes of calculating the ATAR.

In 2017 a score of 30 (the mean score for any study) in Further Maths fell to 27 for the purposes of calculating the ATAR
In 2017 a score of 30 (the mean score for any study) in Maths Methods rose to 35 for the purposes of calculating the ATAR

So a student studying Maths Methods and gaining the mean score of 30 for that study will be lifted to 35, while a student studying Further Maths and gaining a score of 40 (which means they finished in the top 9% of students for Further Maths in the state), will be reduced to 38 for the purposes of calculating the ATAR.



Why? Study scores and ATARs are just rankings for the purpose of university course selection.



Students trying to maximise their state ranking? Yes? And so?

I get that you don't get it.
They are maximising their state rankings by taking easier subject.
So in courses like "Education" they are creating a shortage in teachers capable of teaching the subjects they are short of , because the kids who do those subjects may well get a lower ATAR so why on earth would they do it.

Its not making us smarter.
If all the kids were trying to do real hard stuff, even if some of them failed, then that would be making us smarter.
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...ef-scientist-alan-finkel-20180423-p4zb74.html

https://www.smh.com.au/education/un...es-for-quality-education-20170615-gwrt9u.html

 

[cartel]

I took two easier subjects in year 12 to game the system a bit (further maths and business management). I also did physics, chemistry and maths methods though.

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

 

[Roylion]

I get that you don't get it.

I work in education.

They are maximising their state rankings by taking easier subject.

Scaling evens out the 'hard' subjects and the 'easier' subjects.

So in courses like "Education" they are creating a shortage in teachers capable of teaching the subjects they are short of , because the kids who do those subjects may well get a lower ATAR so why on earth would they do it.

Because careers in science and maths often pay better than teaching.

Its not making us smarter.
If all the kids were trying to do real hard stuff, even if some of them failed, then that would be making us smarter.
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/atar-should-be-simplified-or-even-abolished-says-chief-scientist-alan-finkel-20180423-p4zb74.html

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...ef-scientist-alan-finkel-20180423-p4zb74.html

Dr Alan Finkel makes superficial statements in regards to the ATAR such as:

"the reality is not what it is but what it’s perceived to be".
"let's at least simplify the ATAR so that every single parent and every single teacher and every single career adviser can understand it".

The ATAR is complicated because a whole host of factors are takien into consideration when trying to fairly rank students for possible university selection.

Probably Finkel's most accurate statement
"As a tool for university selection, ATAR might be fantastic......"

That's exactly what it is for. No more, no less.

And as someone who has been heavily involved in helping students choosing studies at VCE level, the advice has always been:
- look at the pre-equisites for the university course / field you want to get into (if the student knows what course / field they want to get into). Those pre-requisites are set by the universities.
- if a student dosen't know exactly what they want to do after Year 12, keep options open by taking at least one maths and science at a Year 12 level
- choose studies that there is an interest in, as that will most likely translate into greater effort and interest, leading to a better performance.

Very rarely does the scaling of a study come into consideration, unless a student is having to make a choice between two studies they have an equal interest or aptitude in. Doing poorly in a study that one has no interest in because it is scaled up has little to no advantage over a student doing well in a study that is scaled down.

https://www.smh.com.au/education/un-agency-ranks-australia-39-out-of-41-countries-for-quality-education-20170615-gwrt9u.html

So what point are you trying to make about senior school by referencing this article about education for 15 year olds and under?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I get that you work in Education and its all dandy.
Great job sir.

Far be it for anyone to criticise such a perfect system.

Sorry for posting the fraudulent news articles.

 

[Roylion]

I took two easier subjects in year 12 to game the system a bit (further maths and business management). I also did physics, chemistry and maths methods though.

So in 2017 a raw score of 40 (top 9% in the state) in all of them, (and adding English) would have seen adjusted scores coming in at 38, 37, 42, 44 and 47 and 39 for English. ATAR of 96.80.

Mean score of 30 for all the above mentioned studies would have seen 27, 26, 32, 34, 35 (and 28 for English) as adjusted scores. ATAR of 75.55.

Had Chemistry, Physics and Maths Methods not been studied and say replaced with 'easier' subjects, say Health and Human Development, Geography and Physical Education, and the same mean 30 score had been achieved, adjusted scores of 27, 26, 26, 29, 27 (28 for English) would have been applied. The ATAR would have been 61.50.

 

[Roylion]

I get that you work in Education and its all dandy.
Great job sir.

I deal with VCE student selections and have done so for some time.

Far be it for anyone to criticise such a perfect system.

Far be it for anyone to explain the system to you, when it's clear you have a number of misconceptions about it.

Now can you tell me if there's any other use for the ATAR other than as a university selection tool?

Sorry for posting the fraudulent news articles.

Make it clear what point you're trying to make about Year 12 results.

 

[MUFKilda]

I haven't lifted a finger for Christmas yet: no cards or presents bought and no preparations done at all. The wife put the decorations up and has organised the Christmas food and drink. I just can't be bothered this year, but I'll need to do something soon. It's a pain in the arse.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

https://www.afr.com/news/policy/edu...erent-ways-to-select-students-20180319-h0xowf

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-21/university-admissions-atar-is-outdated/9567862

 

[Roylion]

https://www.afr.com/news/policy/edu...erent-ways-to-select-students-20180319-h0xowf

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-21/university-admissions-atar-is-outdated/9567862

https://www.theage.com.au/education...ust-has-an-image-problem-20181218-p50n04.html

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I took two easier subjects in year 12 to game the system a bit (further maths and business management). I also did physics, chemistry and maths methods though.

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

Just humor me Cartel.
How much did the Further Maths count towards your score at the end and how much did your Methods?

 

[cartel]

Just humor me Cartel.
How much did the Further Maths count towards your score at the end and how much did your Methods?

Not boasting here, but I got 50 in further maths. I can't remember what I got with methods, think it was low 40s before scaling. Further counted for more in my score, I did it because it was relatively easy to score highly.

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

 

[cartel]

So in 2017 a raw score of 40 (top 9% in the state) in all of them, (and adding English) would have seen adjusted scores coming in at 38, 37, 42, 44 and 47 and 39 for English. ATAR of 96.80.

Mean score of 30 for all the above mentioned studies would have seen 27, 26, 32, 34, 35 (and 28 for English) as adjusted scores. ATAR of 75.55.

Had Chemistry, Physics and Maths Methods not been studied and say replaced with 'easier' subjects, say Health and Human Development, Geography and Physical Education, and the same mean 30 score had been achieved, adjusted scores of 27, 26, 26, 29, 27 (28 for English) would have been applied. The ATAR would have been 61.50.

I don't reminder the precise reasoning behind the atar implications having done it over a decade but I was confident in my ability to score highly in bus management and further maths. I chose subjects based on deliberate strategy to open up more university courses and maximise my score.

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Not boasting here, but I got 50 in further maths. I can't remember what I got with methods, think it was low 40s before scaling. Further counted for more in my score, I did it because it was relatively easy to score highly.

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

So if you were choosing just one mathematics class, Further would be more strategic, even though you were capable of doing methods and learning more. If you had chosen just one, the universities would have considered you more selectable with the "further".

That was my understanding of it.
The adjustment simply isn't enough.

 

[Nutsngum]

So if you were choosing just one mathematics class, Further would be more strategic, even though you were capable of doing methods and learning more. If you had chosen just one, the universities would have considered you more selectable with the "further".

That was my understanding of it.
The adjustment simply isn't enough.

From memory many university courses have a pre-requisite of a certain level of mathematics in VCE. Generally its methods.

 

[St Kilda Death]

 

[VDS66]

Forget uni. Use the money as a deposit for a home... It's a buyers market.

Everything you need to learn is on YouTube these days.

Who needs a degree?

 

[cartel]

So if you were choosing just one mathematics class, Further would be more strategic, even though you were capable of doing methods and learning more. If you had chosen just one, the universities would have considered you more selectable with the "further".

That was my understanding of it.
The adjustment simply isn't enough.

I did both as many courses I was interested in needed methods as a pre requisite. I enjoyed both, it did end up though that further helped my score more. I did do it in year eleven, so had more time to devote to it than methods though.

I agree that the atar isn't the only route to career success. I don't really like the articles though that come out year on year saying it doesn't really matter, as it diminishes the achievement of those that end up doing well. And there is a lot of blood, sweat and tears put into it.

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

 

[gringo2011]

Forget uni. Use the money as a deposit for a home... It's a buyers market.

Everything you need to learn is on YouTube these days.

Who needs a degree?

You probably are better off leaving school and doing a trade realistically. In Europe there are double degree holders pouring coffee. It's supply and demand where if there are 10,000 law jobs in Melbourne and another 2000 get qualified every year then you have an over supply pretty quickly and the boomers don't want to retire until they are in their 70s so they tend to not open up quickly enough.

The kids that hold the stop signs on building sites and tram drivers earn more than some of my mates who are scientists with PHDs.

 

[Highlander35]

Without extending this any further than it needs to, you really should have learned just about everything you need to be a functional member of society at the end of Year 10: there's a reason it splits into VCE and VCAL, or whatever it's being called now.

At that stage it simply becomes a game for the Mainstream Schooling. You select and perform in subjects which (a) Generate the highest ATAR, (b) Don't restrict your options for pursuing higher education that interests you and (c) Make life at whatever Education Institute you end up at easier. Anyone who doesn't look at it this way has missed the point.

Taking myself for example: Across Years 11 and 12, I had Undertaken Standard English, Texts and Traditions, History Revolutions, Maths Methods, Specialist Maths and Physics. I don't remember study scores, but I got 94 and change for the Raw Atar. I know if I actually cared, I could have probably got higher. But most, if not all of the courses I was interested in undertaking had Engineering or Science involved. What that meant was that Methods was a guaranteed requirement for entry into the course, If not undertaken at VCE, one of your electives had to be filled with a Remedial Unit that was the equivalent of Specialist, and Physics was one or the other.

Uni's aren't idiots either. Specialized courses in Particular. My Brother was trying to get into a course that had a clearly in Score in the high 80s and he achieved in the low 70s, but still got a first round offer. Why? Because rather than picking subjects which would get him higher scores, he undertook subjects that he was interested in, AND were relevant to said course, in addition to sending in a portfolio of relevant work to the Universities and other institutions.

Anyone treating Years 11 & 12 as anything but a time for self discovery and an opportunity to make any higher education interests easier is just playing the wrong game entirely.

 

[VDS66]

You probably are better off leaving school and doing a trade realistically. In Europe there are double degree holders pouring coffee. It's supply and demand where if there are 10,000 law jobs in Melbourne and another 2000 get qualified every year then you have an over supply pretty quickly and the boomers don't want to retire until they are in their 70s so they tend to not open up quickly enough.

The kids that hold the stop signs on building sites and tram drivers earn more than some of my mates who are scientists with PHDs.

Pretty much this.

Agree 100%

Am telling my kids to look at the jobs of the future not the present.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Forget uni. Use the money as a deposit for a home... It's a buyers market.

Everything you need to learn is on YouTube these days.

Who needs a degree?

school and myself really didnt agree all that much as a 16 yearold the idea of chasing girls and becoming the next silverchair was all that consumed my time as a student i can confidently say i did not do one hour of homework or study for exams there were certain subject is excelled in just off my basic knowledge of the subject ... by year 11 i was told by the school it was probobly not worth anyones time me continuing so i went and got a trade ... stupidly i chose the electrical trade i passed but the idea of climbing into roof spaces really didnt excite me so when it came to getting an apprenticeship i struggled ... i ended up leaving the trade and working in a warehouse crushing boxes to pay the bills. along that way i figured out i had a pretty good knack for talking to people and selling.. i ended up being a sales rep for a major mining company , unfortunatly the GFC hit and i got made redundant but i landed on my feet with my sales skills eventually ive ended back at the company i got made redundant from and am now running 11 workshops for component rebuilds ...
the moral of the story is education is important but an adaptability to make the most of what is directly infront of you is even more important , where you think you will end up as a 16year old and where you do end up are often very very far apart... become a good person first and opportunities arrive just being smart is often not enough

 

[gringo2011]

Pretty much this.

Agree 100%

Am telling my kids to look at the jobs of the future not the present.

My 16 year old daughter wants to be a detective despite getting excellent academic results, my wife is glad she doesn't want to do law despite it being her best subject but the elitist w***er in her doesn't want her to do a job with out esteem. I couldn't care less, if you want to do something you should go for it. I reckon you are better off doing creative pursuits myself. Computers and robots can't create the same as people and the way kids are hothoused overseas doesn't lend it's self to creative thinking. I hope they work for themselves one day though, it's a great luxury.

 

[mightymalaka]

My 16 year old daughter wants to be a detective despite getting excellent academic results, my wife is glad she doesn't want to do law despite it being her best subject but the elitist w***er in her doesn't want her to do a job with out esteem. I couldn't care less, if you want to do something you should go for it. I reckon you are better off doing creative pursuits myself. Computers and robots can't create the same as people and the way kids are hothoused overseas doesn't lend it's self to creative thinking. I hope they work for themselves one day though, it's a great luxury.

" The Elitist w***er in her " lol.......I'm sure she'll be pleased with that label!

Your daughter wanting to be a detective is an interesting choice!
Shows that she clearly has a strong sense of justice and morals!
Kudos to her parents for installing that into her.
How does Papa Gringo feel about this choice of vocation?