Discussion Random Discussion

[VDS66]

Anyone else watching Tin Star on SBS?

 

[George]

Funny how different people perceive things differently. Not really into the whole left-right paradigm but the only Australian broadcast news I get is the ABC on the Australia Plus channel.
Watching the election coverage I was staggered how often the ABC presenters were cheerleading the ALP. Even the following day, multiple times, ABC presenters were still pushing the ALP narrative.
Perhaps if others see it differently the ABC is managing to strike the balance.

Admittedly found the whole argument around "is it a tax or removal of a concession?" sad but hilarious.

They interviewed both Shorten & Morrison in the weeks leading up to the election. Leigh Sales absolutely grilled Shorten and criticised him on specific policies, going into great detail and trying to make him look stupid. Then a few days later she interviewed Morrison, and asked him the kind of questions Brendan Fevola would ask a Footy Show guest. It was night and day and really very obvious who the ABC and their corporate mates wanted to hold power in this country.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

What about lifting the dole for those living in poverty? Would that bother you?

I'm still waiting for your top 5 list of Abbott's great achievements...

Thinking I have more chance of seen a Saints flag TBH.

I told you why i wasn't going to .
Like your comment about "your tax" going to franking credits. It was only ever going to be tax that the company already paid on the dividends.

Things i'd see as an achievement. ( great)? you probably wouldn't and visa versa.

 

[VDS66]

I told you why i wasn't going to .
Like your comment about "your tax" going to franking credits. It was only ever going to be tax that the company already paid on the dividends.

Things i'd see as an achievement. ( great)? you probably wouldn't and visa versa.

I'll take that as a no? Go on put them out there for discussion. Be a man of conviction.

There's your problem... Selective argument.

Answer the question. Would you be OK with people who pay no tax because they derive income from tax free super having that refund taken away and used in areas that benefit the vulnerable in our society?

It's a pretty straight forward question.

 

[Nutsngum]

I was listening to Raph Epstein on radio tonight, lots of rural Aussies were ringing in, most said climate change was BS and that it was a city persons worry. They want jobs. One guy said climate change was crap because his high school science teacher was a dick head, seemed like the sort of logic that possibly got Morrison back in. It was eye opening as to who votes out there.

The unfortunate truth is that education in rural areas is subpar and its really very rare that the local industries promote any sort of progressive thinking.

Its not popular but a lot of farmers in this country are absolute dumbshits who refuse to adapt to changing conditions and suffer really badly during drought due to it. This isnt new mind you, my grandfather who grew up working on a tobacco farm used to say "you never heard shit from farmers during the good times and every pub had brand new trucks parked out front on saturday nights".

There IS a slow shift in certain agriculture to actually go and study good farming practices thankfully but its really not the norm.

This does sound a like a farmer bashing post which i dont like as I generally find most people out there to be generally good people (if you're white and straight of course) and there is absolutely more that can be done by the powers in the major cities but there is also an arrogance to some of the dumb rhetoric that grinds my teeth down.

 

[gringo2011]

Voted against the abortion pill.

Stood by a convicted paedophile.

Abstained from voting on SSM despite the overwhelming decision of his constituents.

That's just off the top of my head.

The saddest part is that we have people like him and a devout Christian PM, who treat the poorest like ****, underfunded the ndis etc. All the qualities that made Jesus great, yeah?

Raph Epstein had a guy on saying that the areas that voted liberal that weren't rural or in areas with lower rates of degree holders were areas where there were higher percentages of Christians. Christians only have to go to confession and they still get to go to heaven any way. It's a perfect system. I might join, I can act like a mean spirited campaigner all week then come Sunday, duck into a booth with Father Fiddler, a few Hail Marys and I'm cleansed of all my meanness.

Sorry to all the Christians for my blasphemous rant by the way. It's a joke...or not...maybe a snide jab.

 

[VDS66]

The problem with the neo-cons, populists and religious right is they avoid the truth about the status quo regarding the budget and it's structural problems.

The difference in solutions to this problem is that they believe in austerity and middle class welfare, whilst feeding more money to their masters like Murdoch.

Quid pro quo. They make him richer, he uses his influence to keep them in office.

The centrist, social democrats like myself believe that structural problems should be removed... Ongoing costs to the budget such as negative gearing and franking credits which need to be paid for regardless of revenue.

People can argue as much as they like, but austerity and trickle down economics do not work. It didn't work under Thatcher and Reagan, and it doesn't work now.

You can only cut back on essentials and service to much.

Otherwise you entrench poverty and inequality, leadingvto an angry fractured society and subsequent crime and violence that goes with it.

These are just inconvenient truths that the right ignore. Then they accuse us of drinking the kool aide.

 

[mightymalaka]

I'll take that as a no? Go on put them out there for discussion. Be a man of conviction.

There's your problem... Selective argument.

Answer the question. Would you be OK with people who pay no tax because they derive income from tax free super having that refund taken away and used in areas that benefit the vulnerable in our society?

It's a pretty straight forward question.

 

[VDS66]

Oh and I might add that I'm a small business owner...

 

[gringo2011]

The unfortunate truth is that education in rural areas is subpar and its really very rare that the local industries promote any sort of progressive thinking.

Its not popular but a lot of farmers in this country are absolute dumbshits who refuse to adapt to changing conditions and suffer really badly during drought due to it. This isnt new mind you, my grandfather who grew up working on a tobacco farm used to say "you never heard **** from farmers during the good times and every pub had brand new trucks parked out front on saturday nights".

There IS a slow shift in certain agriculture to actually go and study good farming practices thankfully but its really not the norm.

This does sound a like a farmer bashing post which i dont like as I generally find most people out there to be generally good people (if you're white and straight of course) and there is absolutely more that can be done by the powers in the major cities but there is also an arrogance to some of the dumb rhetoric that grinds my teeth down.

My family made their fortune through farming in the old days. In the late 19th century and early 20th century we exported a heaps and provided our local market with everything we could produce. The climate was more predictable and lots got rich. The farm kids went to good city private schools and looked down on townies who were living off the money spent by farmers in towns and their economies were based on that wealth too. Opening up trade so that imported food and clothing and free markets made farming on a small scale really unprofitable. My family members left farming haven't got it so good any more. Some stopped their dairy farms because they were making a few hundred dollars a week for a 7 day a week job starting at dawn once costs were done and hay was brought. In good times farms can still make really good money but the debts that you rack up in between can make it 10 years to recover from a few bad years.

The Latrobe Valley got the electrical trades but also a lot of social housing for the poor which created a kind of welfare society and the lack of money circulating made the towns boring and hard to find work. Power plants and mines closed, Drugs arrived and there is now a class of welfare dependent people who have given up hope. Taking them off welfare makes them desperate as well as poor, no industry will take up enough slack to employ them all and the ones that do go off and get degrees in the city come back with a HECS debt and get work in government agencies or smaller businesses in town with limited growth opportunities.

That's the reality in most of regional Australia unfortunately. No-one has answers and everyone wants it how it was. It just isn't happening any time soon. Same shit in the US as well. The European migrants that came here in the old days were leaving their countries for the same reason. Regional work dries up, towns start to get depressed and the young move away leaving them to turn back into dust. Coal, Renewables etc will never fix it. Tourism is probably the only little crumb they might get to save them.

 

[VDS66]

https://www.smh.com.au/federal-elec...abbott-s-immense-talents-20190520-p51pa9.html

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

I was listening to Raph Epstein on radio tonight, lots of rural Aussies were ringing in, most said climate change was BS and that it was a city persons worry. They want jobs. One guy said climate change was crap because his high school science teacher was a dick head, seemed like the sort of logic that possibly got Morrison back in. It was eye opening as to who votes out there.

I think it is very much a inner city persons worry:

Take the booth by booth in Melbourne. Lots of swinging towards labor in the inner suburbs. Once you start getting out to the outer suburbs it goes blue.
The Age summed it up today:

Terry Rawnsley, a partner at consultancy firm SGS Economics and Planning, said the influx of younger, better-paid people in the inner cities of the nation's capitals was changing their political nature in a development that was unlikely to stop.

"People living in the inner city are feeling more comfortable with the economic outlook," he said.

"They've got professional jobs, they understand that disruption is part of the future and they're confident they've got the skills to deal with it."

Mr Rawnsley said it was very different for people in manufacturing or retail with question marks over their long-term future.

"Here, people are fighting to put food on the table. Those in the inner city have got the incomes and confidence to worry about social issues like the state of the environment," he said.

https://www.theage.com.au/federal-e...0-p51peo.html?js-chunk-not-found-refresh=true

It really should be something that has everyone on board with. I guess with the lean years where money gets tighter self interest comes first.

 

[Nutsngum]

My family made their fortune through farming in the old days. In the late 19th century and early 20th century we exported a heaps and provided our local market with everything we could produce. The climate was more predictable and lots got rich. The farm kids went to good city private schools and looked down on townies who were living off the money spent by farmers in towns and their economies were based on that wealth too. Opening up trade so that imported food and clothing and free markets made farming on a small scale really unprofitable. My family members left farming haven't got it so good any more. Some stopped their dairy farms because they were making a few hundred dollars a week for a 7 day a week job starting at dawn once costs were done and hay was brought. In good times farms can still make really good money but the debts that you rack up in between can make it 10 years to recover from a few bad years.

The Latrobe Valley got the electrical trades but also a lot of social housing for the poor which created a kind of welfare society and the lack of money circulating made the towns boring and hard to find work. Power plants and mines closed, Drugs arrived and there is now a class of welfare dependent people who have given up hope. Taking them off welfare makes them desperate as well as poor, no industry will take up enough slack to employ them all and the ones that do go off and get degrees in the city come back with a HECS debt and get work in government agencies or smaller businesses in town with limited growth opportunities.

That's the reality in most of regional Australia unfortunately. No-one has answers and everyone wants it how it was. It just isn't happening any time soon. Same **** in the US as well. The European migrants that came here in the old days were leaving their countries for the same reason. Regional work dries up, towns start to get depressed and the young move away leaving them to turn back into dust. Coal, Renewables etc will never fix it. Tourism is probably the only little crumb they might get to save them.

Opening up trade isnt the only reason farmers are fighting to make profits either. Big corporations like the supermarkets and their suppliers have such a stranglehold that they can pretty much demand the lowest possible price and then some for produce. On top of that, theyre also renowned for failing to pay outstanding bills and debts with farmers until basically threatened with legal action.

I absolutely feel symptathy for the position a lot of people are in. I just wish that all parties involved would actually work together to try and solve the issues that are effecting everyone. Its so damn hard when you have 5 generations of Nationals supporters voting in an MP who does absolutely sweet **** all for their constituents (ive heard a million stories of current MPs who are just awful representatives).

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Franking credits and Negative Gearing are effictevly both government subsidies on personal investments. Why either exist really boggles my mind and it is absolutely important to remove them from the system.

What was stupid though was going to the election with these notions. The average Australian doesn't really understand these systems and therefore can have it spun in a way that can come back and bite you.

That coupled with Labor's completely inadequate campaigning in rural and marginalised areas cost them dearly. They coasted on the idea that hard done by workers will "naturally vote labor" when they provided them little reason to actually do so.

The coalition did **** all as well mind you but support for the nationals is so ingrained that they already have a lot of that tied up anyway and they can boast about creating mining jobs (they actually will create barely any employment naturally) and the like because they have no vested interest in tackling climate change issues at all.

I expect the next three years to be an utter waste of time and money from Scomo, just like the Liberal tenure so far. My only hope is they don't **** up TOO much more like they already did with the NBN and the encryption laws.



Comparing Shorten to Keating is a little unfair. Keating was as quick witted as they came and had absolutely no qualms in annihating his opposition at any opportune time. Whether you entirely agree with what he did as PM he was a VERY strong leader and suffered at the end really with fall out of the 90s recession and the long ass Labor tenure by that point.

So if you are the sole owner of a business. You don't collect any wages from it.
Your business makes 10K , and pays 3K tax.

You should now pay tax on the $7K profit you collect at your marginal rate?

Seems like a pretty big chunk to the government.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Carbon tax /carbon credit in our domesic situation is nonsense.
Its a global phenomenon.
Any such system needs to somehow include a carbon count for exports, and a carbon count for imports.
BUt how do we know if the company that made your new widget used solar energy or coal? How do we know how efficient the ship was.

( SHips make more greenhouse gas than all of australia ).

 

[Gangnam Saint]

Sadly I agree with George .

It's all perception but I am always amazed at how tribal people become.
All going to the same place ultimately, it's just about how quickly you want to circle round the plug hole.

Check out China's social credit scoring system, this is what we have waiting for us.

 

[Yawkey way]

I was listening to Raph Epstein on radio tonight, lots of rural Aussies were ringing in, most said climate change was BS and that it was a city persons worry. They want jobs. One guy said climate change was crap because his high school science teacher was a dick head, seemed like the sort of logic that possibly got Morrison back in. It was eye opening as to who votes out there.

You would be surprised at how many people hold fairly strange beliefs and also by just how many have no interest in politics at all.

Some of the things I’ve heard defy belief, people who can’t name the PM and the leader of the opposition let alone their local member. The most amusing is that quite a few think their somehow voting for or against Trump. I guess that’s a result of the ridiculous amount of coverage he gets here. I’m still glad Australia has compulsory voting, imo it beats the alternative.

 

[Yawkey way]

Anyone else watching Tin Star on SBS?

Is it any good??

 

[Stewart66]

It's all perception but I am always amazed at how tribal people become.
All going to the same place ultimately, it's just about how quickly you want to circle round the plug hole.

Check out China's social credit scoring system, this is what we have waiting for us.

No mate , what I get angry about is the blatant waste of money Governments from all over the world .
Unfortunately the petty arguments should be all put aside , if there is a good idea be it for the betterment
of the country forget this Liberal Vs Labor crap do it .

We wont never will .

Just me use some examples I would’ve liked to happen..


Huawei should have them competing with Telstra for 5G ... network the whole country forget the spying crap
everyone needs to wake up , self interest is at work .

Australia should have purchased the Russian aircraft for its defence , rather than a half baked job the Yanks
were offering , we didn’t do it , self interest is at work.

Rather than farming like we’ve done for 100 years , degrading the continent, it’s rivers , it’s remaining rain forest.
We flood the Oceans with plastic , could have (should have ) our own recycling industries the technology is
there , all the trains , trams should be have been solar 20 years ago , been fortunate to travel the World .
These are all sustainable long term industries, we should be the food bowl of Asia , growing stuff they want as
Asian varieties of vegetables, we don’t only small amount, no vision .
We allow massive amounts of water to flow back into the Ocean rather capturing it , turning it to Hydro power
and rehydration of the land , sending it South.
All human waste disposal, should have been sent inland for soil regeneration, huge tracts of land reforestation .

China is going to be number 1, go to Africa , India they are on the ground there huge.

We don’t do it , why ? self interest keep the minions subservient.

 

[VDS66]

Is it any good??

So far so good.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Jesus man this isn’t the Richo thread lol bloody negativity on here driving me mad
We will be ok mate I only have to look and listen to my two kids and there friends to realise we wil be fine, so much more tuned into most things then my age bracket was

Our whole political system lacks good strong leadership but it’s poor labelling people red knecks - stupid ect because they didn’t vote a certain way

oh look dont get me wrong .. i have great faith in the younger generation to fix the wrongs of this generation i see the winds of change in that generation that will change the direction the thing of it is i feel this generation are doing their darndest to knock that out of them ...

 

[VDS66]

So if you are the sole owner of a business. You don't collect any wages from it.
Your business makes 10K , and pays 3K tax.

You should now pay tax on the $7K profit you collect at your marginal rate?

Seems like a pretty big chunk to the government.

Again, selective arguing.

It's the refund for those not paying tax that is inequitable.

I notice you haven't answered my question.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

1. Wrong
https://www.master-and-more.eu/en/top-40-education-systems-in-the-world/
My problem with it is we always talk about improving it in terms of dollars. More money=more education. That doesn't necessarily follow.

2. Wrong
https://www.beckershospitalreview.c...ries-with-the-best-public-health-systems.html


3. Wrong
https://www.budde.com.au/Research/Global-Telecoms-Maturity-Index-Top-20-Countries
( the USA for example have great internet in New York, but don't hope for too much in the back woods ).

4. Yes we are like most countries of our size and wealth.
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-the-most-dependent-on-fossil-fuels.html
Unfortunately we will need to BUILD alternative energy systems....then we have this problem.

http://www.primecapital.com/the-high-cost-of-building-in-australia/


Fact is we do ok for a place that can't do much except dig for minerals, and grow food ( often not even processed ie...live sheep export ).

The industrial revolution was not handed out on a platter by a government. Big COMPANIES used printing presses to displace their pen and paper writers. IT SAVED THEM MONEY. Australia has been great at not using technology to improve things. We are littered with factories and the like that were built in the 50's and 60's and never really updated to a large degree. Technology here costs a lot. Construction here costs a lot. No-one anywhere pays so much money for a little piss-ass desalination plant like Victoria built.

Technology has not been provided by any government its been driven by big companies.
Technology is not invented by some clever guy in his shed. And if it did, he'd sell it to a big company overseas.
We have no big companies. We have made Australia a "yukky" place for such companies. We'd outsource mining if it was possible.
We don't provide an environment where businesses can thrive. We prefer to consider them evil.

Course you have to do it for yourself. No place anywhere will give you everything.

You seem to want to just spend money.
We don't make stuff in Australia, so the costs of Medical equipment , solar equipment.
If we spend more than we have, we end up like Greece. Then all your complaints will become reality.

Or are you suggesting we bump up the GST and double the income tax?

its an opinion so it is most certainly not wrong ...
education is a friggin joke teachers teaching kids to pass a test set by the gov. my nephews have just this week done their Naplan testing the efforts my sisters have had to put into reassuring them its ok because of the internal pressure put on them from the school on this test is shocking and im talking about 10 yearolds ... we dont educate kids in this country we prep them to pass a friggin test.. kids dont get the education we once got yes they are smart but they dont learn the skills to be functional humans ... i know a fair bit about this my sister developed the education program Connected Education that is trying to improve what is broken ..

health care is a sham.. we have a public system where the wait time is seeing people die before getting treatment , we have a society where ambos are among the highest attacked public servants and we have professionals leaving the industry every day because the conditions are so poor ..

maybe you are happy at being 62nd on the worlds list for suitable internet speed .. we had the plan in place to fix that but we went the tight arse option that ended up costing us more ... seriously when i think back to the NBN cluster i cannot understand how anyone ever could trust the libs to know what they are doing ...

im not saying we dont do ok ... but Feck me shouldnt we aim for higher than ok...
government certainly plays a huge part in technology and innovation through scientific research the fact that millions is cut from departments like the CSIRO ...

honestly i do feel we need to take a step back financially to redirect the ship ... fears like "housing prices will plument" well sorry but maybe that needs to happen ..

 

[VDS66]

And here we go again...

https://thenewdaily.com.au/money/finance-news/2019/05/21/rba-rate-cut-apra-economy/

 

[VDS66]

its an opinion so it is most certainly not wrong ...
education is a friggin joke teachers teaching kids to pass a test set by the gov. my nephews have just this week done their Naplan testing the efforts my sisters have had to put into reassuring them its ok because of the internal pressure put on them from the school on this test is shocking and im talking about 10 yearolds ... we dont educate kids in this country we prep them to pass a friggin test.. kids dont get the education we once got yes they are smart but they dont learn the skills to be functional humans ... i know a fair bit about this my sister developed the education program Connected Education that is trying to improve what is broken ..

health care is a sham.. we have a public system where the wait time is seeing people die before getting treatment , we have a society where ambos are among the highest attacked public servants and we have professionals leaving the industry every day because the conditions are so poor ..

maybe you are happy at being 62nd on the worlds list for suitable internet speed .. we had the plan in place to fix that but we went the tight arse option that ended up costing us more ... seriously when i think back to the NBN cluster i cannot understand how anyone ever could trust the libs to know what they are doing ...

im not saying we dont do ok ... but Feck me shouldnt we aim for higher than ok...
government certainly plays a huge part in technology and innovation through scientific research the fact that millions is cut from departments like the CSIRO ...

honestly i do feel we need to take a step back financially to redirect the ship ... fears like "housing prices will plument" well sorry but maybe that needs to happen ..

Here's a few ideas...

Firstly we as a society need to decide if we want to go down the USA model of user pays or a Scandinavian style of social democracy where you are happy to pay tax because you actually see the benefits of his it is spent.

Secondly, given our relatively small.population, we are over governed with 3 levels of government. What a waste of money and duplication.

Thirdly, reduce the size of state governments and create national policies.

Fourthly, Federal gov to look after health and education thereby ending the blame game.

Fifthly, set up a government essential service authority and take back control over power, water etc.

Government isn't a business and isn't there to make a profit.

that's just start...