Discussion Random Discussion

[gringo2011]

It's grim. I was a young copper when the Ash Wednesday fires hit. That was horrific. This is 100 times worse. I've never seen anything like it. Exhausted fire fighters, grieving and frightened people. Exhaustion, physical and mental is the norm.

The sense of uncertainty is palpable. Nobody really knows exactly what's going on. As I've said before, I've only got a holiday shack to lose. Some have lost everything. Heartbreaking. At least there is a spirit of camaraderie that only disasters seem to bring out in us.

God I hope the forecast of rain hurries up and comes true. I see the Sikhs have gone to Wang to feed people. They are a wonderful mob.

Yeah we lost our holiday house in the Black Saturday fires. It's inconvenient more than disastrous but it's still pretty traumatic. So many good memories are lost and they can't be put back. I can't imagine the loss of your primary residence. It would cause serious long term distress. It would be hard to be there and trust the bush too.

I was stuck in in Ulladulla during a bushfire and the flames came so close to town that the sky was red during the day and the hills glowed all night. The people were in a state of hysteria, it was kind of upbeat despite the feeling like we might all die. My mum lives in Daylesford and was at a party last year when there was a fire trapping them in Hepburn. She said the same thing happened, there was a kind of party vibe despite massive fear.

My dad was in what used to be called the forestry commission and he said that during firefighting they'd get really adrenalised and would get through for a week or so the get seriously depressed afterwards. Imagine that comedown after all he help goes and life goes back to normal for people left in the aftermath. It must be emotionally intense.

Those Sikh guys are legends, they do the rounds of Melbourne feeding the homeless restaurant quality food out of their own pockets.

 

[bergholt]

I know some of you think blaming the Greens is simplistic, but for safety's sake, it might be better if they stayed west of Warragul for a time.

Pretty easy to blame the Greens out in working-class coal-mining country, who knows if it's true or not but the Bayesian prior for Greens being to blame is already pretty close to 100% before any evidence is considered.

 

[gringo2011]

If you can get over the very partisan editorial, this was a good policy. I hope the government implement something similar.

What a competent government would have done ... - The AIM Network

Who said there’s no difference between Labor and the LNP? I thank Henry Johnston for pointing me to this media release by Bill Shorten (on [...]

theaimn.com

 

[gringo2011]

Gina Rinehart company revealed as $4.5m donor to climate sceptic thinktank

Billionaire’s company gave significant donations to the Institute of Public Affairs in 2016 and 2017

www.theguardian.com

 

[Johnnyrayflamingo]

Australia’s most deadly and destructive bushfires

Don't you dare go telling Johnny Ray we haven't had bushfires before and bad ones.

1. Listen to fire experts like Packham, Jurskis and the current firies on the front
2. Learn off the aboriginals techniques and apply them
3. Get land management done properly in the off season
4. Put more funding and people into hazard reduction
5. Piss off The greenies and any protesters from bushfire discussion for good

The bushfires won't be stopped but they can be reduced and minimised.

 

[Johnnyrayflamingo]

6. Send firebugs and arsonists on a way one trip to Baghdad
7. Give 10 year prison sentences to any protestor who interferes with hazard reduction in the bushfire off season e.g. chains or glues themselves to trees

 

[jwikked]

6. Send firebugs and arsonists on a way one trip to Baghdad
7. Give 10 year prison sentences to any protestor who interferes with hazard reduction in the bushfire off season e.g. chains or glues themselves to trees

Punishing firebugs! Why haven’t we thought of that.
We need to make bushfires illegal as soon as possible. Someone alert the Prime Minister

 

[StFly]

Punishing firebugs! Why haven’t we thought of that.
We need to make bushfires illegal as soon as possible. Someone alert the Prime Minister

As a representative of bug kind I feel the term is a misnomer and should be suspended post haste, they shall now be refused to as "some homo-sapiens igniting things" or S.H.I.T for short.

End the tyranny on bug kind today.

#6: #nomoreshit

 

[Johnnyrayflamingo]

Punishing firebugs! Why haven’t we thought of that.
We need to make bushfires illegal as soon as possible. Someone alert the Prime Minister

I say harsher penalties mate. Send the bastards to be groundskeepers for the Irqai national soccer side.

 

[pebblesofsand]

]

Australia’s most deadly and destructive bushfires

Don't you dare go telling Johnny Ray we haven't had bushfires before and bad ones.

1. Listen to fire experts like Packham, Jurskis and the current firies on the front
2. Learn off the aboriginals techniques and apply them
3. Get land management done properly in the off season
4. Put more funding and people into hazard reduction
5. Piss off The greenies and any protesters from bushfire discussion for good

The bushfires won't be stopped but they can be reduced and minimised.

Mate stop it - all you are doing is proving you've simply got no idea.

I asked you a series of very simple questions about (1) Packham analysis which you haven't answered which suggests that aside from repeating trite meaningless statements you really have no grasp of the complexity of the issue.

Let's try (2). At the start of white colonisation of Victoria there were about 150,000 aboriginals in Victoria. Can you explain to me how that few people actually "managed" the fire risk in the 225,000 sq km of Victoria?

You could possibly say that they "managed" tiny tiny sections but the rest burnt and regenerated just like today and as a result still we have eucalypt forests. You do know that they are dependent on fire for their survival don't you?

Let's try (3) So if the conditions are too dry (you do know we are in a drought don't you) can you explain how the land managers can safely carry out "controlled" burns?

Lets try (4) I agree so tell me how much extra tax are you prepared to pay?

Again I wait with interest for responses to basic questions and once again I don't expect to get them.

 

[bergholt]

Again I wait with interest for responses to basic questions and once again I don't expect to get them.

Unfortunately our mate Johnnyrayflamingo isn’t one to reply to others except with partisan crap - he’s got his brain turned off when he thinks about this stuff. On some things he’s right, on some he’s wrong, but impossible to respect him because he doesn’t engage in polite rational discussion.

 

[pebblesofsand]

How morally bankrupt must you be to release an ad spruiking your belated response to a crisis which has killed many people and left hundreds possibly thousands homeless and then set it to a tinny Casio ringtone. FMD what have we done to warrant such s*** politicians.

Scott Morrison's political ad is a bizarre act of self-love as firefighters battle to save Australia | Katharine Murphy

The prime minister’s promotional video was staggeringly objectionable and highlights his failure to lead

www.theguardian.com

This is closer to the truth.

 

[Drake Huggins]

Pretty easy to blame the Greens out in working-class coal-mining country, who knows if it's true or not but the Bayesian prior for Greens being to blame is already pretty close to 100% before any evidence is considered.

It goes back to the period between March and June last year, Bergholt. Green activists actively stopped burn off's by chaining themselves to trees and physically preventing the planned management actions. Some on here deny this. Typical.

They should check the photographs and videos taken by the Bairnsdale local rag and TV stations and put on the front pages and nightly news. They should also chat to the local firies, who tell us that because of these actions and government inaction for fear of upsetting these fools, only 9 of 375 burns went ahead.

I know there are a number of factors involved and it's complicated but the first rule of bushfire fighting is to reduce fuel loads. No fuel, no fire.

The other nonsense pedalled by the Greens is that climate change is largely to blame. Unfortunately for them, it is now officially estimated that over 80% of the fires burning in Victoria have been deliberately lit. Just as has been the case in the past. 16 people have been charged so far and there'll be more to come, once investigations are completed. Disgraceful really. There should be a mandatory minimum sentence of 10 years imprisonment for any arsonist who starts a bushfire.

I know that''s a case of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted, but it will at least reduce rates of recidivism. Around 70% of arsonists continue lighting fires, even after arrest and imprisonment. Better methods of detection are a greater deterrent than heavy penalties. The belief you will be caught offending is the most effective deterrent.

And please, I know there are a lot of intelligent and educated people on this site, but there seems to be a whiff of condescension in all of this directed at "working class bogans" who apparently don't understand the complexities and issues.

What they do understand is the reality of losing lives, property and their lifestyles. Unlike the superior inner city intellectuals, activists and various hangers on who deride them, they have been forced to suffer the consequences of government incompetence, idiotic Greens' policies that place even the plight of animals ahead of exposing humans to this risk, and misinformation. There is a lot of shock and anger atm. Understandably so. The locals, including farmers and the local aboriginal community seem to have a pretty strong grasp about what the causes are. Their input has been largely ignored for years, in deference to advice given by activists, academics and bureaucrats.

The scale of suffering in this is unprecedented in this state's history. The true horror will only be realised in the aftermath. If you want to help, donate your time or money. It would be most appreciated. Even by the working class bogans.

 

[Drake Huggins]

BTW. If you want to help, contact the Salvos, Red Cross, or Givit. Check their FB pages and those of relevant local governments. Things such as clothing, tents, linen, food (non perishable) , money etc. are welcome. Don't come down unannounced as you'll probably get turned away. Unfortunately there are a lot of "rubber neckers", voyeurs and creeps who want to see the devastation first hand. They're only putting themselves and others in danger.

If you can help with animal rescue and care, contact the RSPCA. The effect on local wildlife has been devastating.

I hope you can help. The locals need it. My place is relatively safe at Paynesville, as Bairnsdale provides a natural fire break.

The Prince's Highway is closed to traffic from East Bairnsdale. Every town beyond that point has been pretty much abandoned. It's drizzling lightly atm. I hope the rain keeps coming.

 

[gringo2011]

This is a classic case of "Coroners' Court Syndrome". Someone has to die before the appropriate action is taken. I thought we'd learned from Black Saturday.

We've been caught out again. Perhaps the conditions were too extreme for the levels of preparation and planning. FIIK. Once again, mother nature and political inaction have combined to pull our collective pants down. There are a lot of angry people here right now.

I know some of you think blaming the Greens is simplistic, but for safety's sake, it might be better if they stayed west of Warragul for a time. Politicians needn't bother either. I'm told there's a long way to go and there may be worse to come. Good grief!

It's one of those arguments that apportions blame to one group with very limited power. Much like blaming crime rates on refugees. When we want to cut down a tree on our property we have to make sure it's not an endangered species which means most of the eucalypts and it can't be over a certain size unless it's near a house, shed or fence line. If you want to remove a single tree you can apply by permit with a reason. It's inconvenient and annoying but the reason you have to is because some greedy or stupid people have cleared significant amounts of bush to the point of no return. I could reframe the argument to say that farmers over clearing made it hard for the rest of us. Or corrupt developers building into the bush fringe who make it impossible to burn off in certain areas, or greedy politicians who take kick backs for all kinds of corrupt acts.

Most of the hold ups for building for us are bushfire planning overlays after Black Saturday where some of the corrupt practices were exposed and made the councils much more stringent in their administration of long standing laws.

We have cleared more land in Australia in our short history than just about any other country, we need trees and forrest to clean the air so we can't just cut it all down. We need to actually have some plans in place to deal with fires in the future. The cost of buying equipment and paying staff would be a tiny amount compared to what the rebuild will cost. We know someone who writes insurance policy. They are getting to the point where they can't afford to keep paying out. They have closed all Australian offices and he works remote but based in Singapore now. The governments are going to have to act, not pass blame along.

 

[gringo2011]

Morrison government paid empathy consultant $190,000

In a week of senate estimates marked by obfuscation, one official revealed the cost of teaching bureaucrats to interact humanely with farmers facing drought.

www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au

 

[pebblesofsand]

It goes back to the period between March and June last year, Bergholt. Green activists actively stopped burn off's by chaining themselves to trees and physically preventing the planned management actions. Some on here deny this. Typical.

They should check the photographs and videos taken by the Bairnsdale local rag and TV stations and put on the front pages and nightly news. They should also chat to the local firies, who tell us that because of these actions and government inaction for fear of upsetting these fools, only 9 of 375 burns went ahead.

I know there are a number of factors involved and it's complicated but the first rule of bushfire fighting is to reduce fuel loads. No fuel, no fire.

The other nonsense pedalled by the Greens is that climate change is largely to blame. Unfortunately for them, it is now officially estimated that over 80% of the fires burning in Victoria have been deliberately lit. Just as has been the case in the past. 16 people have been charged so far and there'll be more to come, once investigations are completed. Disgraceful really. There should be a mandatory minimum sentence of 10 years imprisonment for any arsonist who starts a bushfire.

I know that''s a case of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted, but it will at least reduce rates of recidivism. Around 70% of arsonists continue lighting fires, even after arrest and imprisonment. Better methods of detection are a greater deterrent than heavy penalties. The belief you will be caught offending is the most effective deterrent.

And please, I know there are a lot of intelligent and educated people on this site, but there seems to be a whiff of condescension in all of this directed at "working class bogans" who apparently don't understand the complexities and issues.

What they do understand is the reality of losing lives, property and their lifestyles. Unlike the superior inner city intellectuals, activists and various hangers on who deride them, they have been forced to suffer the consequences of government incompetence, idiotic Greens' policies that place even the plight of animals ahead of exposing humans to this risk, and misinformation. There is a lot of shock and anger atm. Understandably so. The locals, including farmers and the local aboriginal community seem to have a pretty strong grasp about what the causes are. Their input has been largely ignored for years, in deference to advice given by activists, academics and bureaucrats.

The scale of suffering in this is unprecedented in this state's history. The true horror will only be realised in the aftermath. If you want to help, donate your time or money. It would be most appreciated. Even by the working class bogans.

Mate - I've got no doubt your heart is in the right place and you're down here volunteering which is great but please please please check your facts before you post and pass on absolute nonsense.

Drake Huggins
"chat to the local firies, who tell us that because of these actions and government inaction for fear of upsetting these fools, only 9 of 375 burns went ahead."

This is so much rubbish as to be complete bulls***. 73 burns were carried out last year covering 90,000 hectares. All of these burns were planned in consultation with the communities, the local CFA and aboriginal groups. One planned burn was significantly altered in East Gippsland because of the concerns of local residents. It was reduced from 375 to 9 hectares - do those figures ring a bell?

Drake Huggins
"Unfortunately for them, it is now officially estimated that over 80% of the fires burning in Victoria have been deliberately lit."

Reality - one person has been charged with starting a fire near Johnsonville and the Mill Park fire is suspected to have been deliberately lit - nearly every other fire started through dry lightning strikes. That is not 80%

You say you were a former detective so it staggers me the extent you appear to value gossip over facts.

 

[Stewart66]

How morally bankrupt must you be to release an ad spruiking your belated response to a crisis which has killed many people and left hundreds possibly thousands homeless and then set it to a tinny Casio ringtone. FMD what have we done to warrant such s*** politicians.

Scott Morrison's political ad is a bizarre act of self-love as firefighters battle to save Australia | Katharine Murphy

The prime minister’s promotional video was staggeringly objectionable and highlights his failure to lead

www.theguardian.com

This is closer to the truth.

Suprised Hillsong choir wasn’t in the background , give me Greg Mullins everyday of the week

Surely we change his name to Nero.

 

[gringo2011]

It goes back to the period between March and June last year, Bergholt. Green activists actively stopped burn off's by chaining themselves to trees and physically preventing the planned management actions. Some on here deny this. Typical.

They should check the photographs and videos taken by the Bairnsdale local rag and TV stations and put on the front pages and nightly news. They should also chat to the local firies, who tell us that because of these actions and government inaction for fear of upsetting these fools, only 9 of 375 burns went ahead.

I know there are a number of factors involved and it's complicated but the first rule of bushfire fighting is to reduce fuel loads. No fuel, no fire.

The other nonsense pedalled by the Greens is that climate change is largely to blame. Unfortunately for them, it is now officially estimated that over 80% of the fires burning in Victoria have been deliberately lit. Just as has been the case in the past. 16 people have been charged so far and there'll be more to come, once investigations are completed. Disgraceful really. There should be a mandatory minimum sentence of 10 years imprisonment for any arsonist who starts a bushfire.

I know that''s a case of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted, but it will at least reduce rates of recidivism. Around 70% of arsonists continue lighting fires, even after arrest and imprisonment. Better methods of detection are a greater deterrent than heavy penalties. The belief you will be caught offending is the most effective deterrent.

And please, I know there are a lot of intelligent and educated people on this site, but there seems to be a whiff of condescension in all of this directed at "working class bogans" who apparently don't understand the complexities and issues.

What they do understand is the reality of losing lives, property and their lifestyles. Unlike the superior inner city intellectuals, activists and various hangers on who deride them, they have been forced to suffer the consequences of government incompetence, idiotic Greens' policies that place even the plight of animals ahead of exposing humans to this risk, and misinformation. There is a lot of shock and anger atm. Understandably so. The locals, including farmers and the local aboriginal community seem to have a pretty strong grasp about what the causes are. Their input has been largely ignored for years, in deference to advice given by activists, academics and bureaucrats.

The scale of suffering in this is unprecedented in this state's history. The true horror will only be realised in the aftermath. If you want to help, donate your time or money. It would be most appreciated. Even by the working class bogans.

You don't mean this, I tried to find it. It's 2 people who are local residents worried about baby birds. FFS if two grandparents with cardboard signs make a green protest I'd hate to see what a real protest gets reported as. It must be considered rioting.

ABC deleting facebook posts on how protesters stop prescribed burns “more worried about climate change” than wildfires « JoNova

joannenova.com.au

 

[Moral Decay]

I wonder if the empathy consultant has contributed or done any work to help with fire relief?

 

[pebblesofsand]

Suprised Hillsong choir wasn’t in the background , give me Greg Mullins everyday of the week

Surely we change his name to Nero.

Yeah except that rather than a fiddle Morrison's sitting with the cricketers playing one of these.

 

[pebblesofsand]

I wonder if the empathy consultant has contributed or done any work to help with fire relief?

Ahh good to hear from you - how are things up there? Safe and well I hope. Looked terrible for your area yesterday - hope things are OK. I see the fire got close to Omeo yesterday. Looks like it nearly got into Mt Sam - thats too close for comfort.

 

[bergholt]

The other nonsense pedalled by the Greens is that climate change is largely to blame. Unfortunately for them, it is now officially estimated that over 80% of the fires burning in Victoria have been deliberately lit. Just as has been the case in the past. 16 people have been charged so far and there'll be more to come, once investigations are completed. Disgraceful really.

No idea if that's true, and I agree that climate change is unlikely to have had much impact on these fires. But clearly bad fires need a point of ignition, then conditions to help them take off. Fuel load is one part of "conditions", as you said. Another is dryness and atmospheric conditions - which are obviously affected by climate change.

So whether or not these fires are related, in the future there we'll see fires worse worse than they should have been because the climate is hotter and dryer.

And please, I know there are a lot of intelligent and educated people on this site, but there seems to be a whiff of condescension in all of this directed at "working class bogans" who apparently don't understand the complexities and issues.

I grew up in the country, I still have family and good mates out there. I'd still be there if there were any jobs in my field.

So my condescension is based in some level of personal experience. Plenty of country people choose actively not to give a shit about politics. They vote conservative (usually for the Nationals) because their parents and grandparents did. They hate the Greens and anyone who cares about the environment because everyone around them does. They pick random reasons for everything being worse than the old days - like immigration, or greenies, or gays.

Some of these things are justified. Mates up near Shep have seen some pretty solid problems with new immigrants being dumped up there when there are no jobs. I don't begrudge them being anti-immigration - until we can find a way to build a decent broad-based Australian economy we should probably all be anti-immigration.

But pretending that country people's gut reactions based on the tiniest amounts of data are somehow always valid? That's going too far for me. If they do the work to have a well-founded opinion, and are willing to discuss it and think about it, then I'll listen. But if they're just going to say things like "idiotic Greens policies" when the only place the Greens have held government in the entire country is a couple of councils in inner Melbourne, I'm going to have trouble paying them any respect.

 

[Moral Decay]

Ahh good to hear from you - how are things up there? Safe and well I hope. Looked terrible for your area yesterday - hope things are OK. I see the fire got close to Omeo yesterday. Looks like it nearly got into Mt Sam - thats too close for comfort.

The wind change saved Omeo, fire was barrelling across looked gone for all money 10 mins maybe a bit more.
Fire reports for top of the Gap were wrong, same for Swifts Creek - Ensay back road.
Ensay people very angry, fire fighters every where then the wind change came and they were abandoned, fires left to a lot of old men in shitty old 4wds and slip ons while the best equipment buggered off because it was too dangerous.
Me and mine are doing fine, lots of burnt leaves but nothing more.
Old mate at Brookville fire got ti his back yard but local boys put it out.
Need lots of rain.
How are you coping?

 

[cartel]

Extremely smoky up here on the border.

How morally bankrupt must you be to release an ad spruiking your belated response to a crisis which has killed many people and left hundreds possibly thousands homeless and then set it to a tinny Casio ringtone. FMD what have we done to warrant such s*** politicians.

Scott Morrison's political ad is a bizarre act of self-love as firefighters battle to save Australia | Katharine Murphy

The prime minister’s promotional video was staggeringly objectionable and highlights his failure to lead

www.theguardian.com

This is closer to the truth.

Bloke is a first class f-wit and must have absolute clowns advising him if they thought this was a good idea. The last few weeks will be a defining moment in his political career.