List Mgmt. Rebuild or refresh?

Rebuild or refresh?

  • Rebuild

    Votes: 19 26.8%
  • Refresh

    Votes: 52 73.2%

  • Total voters
    71

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Jonesracing82

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Draft while the older guys like Cotch and Bachar are sliding out the door. Trade guys that want a bit more game time and $, for pick upgrades, or future picks. Keep building and hopefully our drop off will be short and we'll come back hard once our older guys go.
Given our draft hand this yr, i like the idea of trading for future picks, 6 picks in the 1st 3 rds this yr + 4-6 again next yr is a bumper Drafting period. Then keep doing the same each yr. it also allows a full restructure of our cap going fwd. This also allows us to take a project in the rookie Draft(s) as well as some speculative late picks also, we have a good record with the latter in recent yrs. What a great spot to be in.
 

THE_GUN

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If multiple teams go past our best 22 in this years finals the club will have some interesting choices to make. One option I would love the club to consider is along these lines:

Keep the best leaders, and a good group of mature players. But see if there are 1-2 players with currency who can be traded out. Vlastuin to Cats given he already has a residence down there might be one, as unthinkable as it is. 2022 first rounder for him has to be a possibility. No fire sales, no players forced out against their will, just if you can find a situation like this where both the club and player are happy with it, then do it. Who knows, someone like Prestia may be happy to play out his remaining years at a contending club, again, you might get upgraded to a late first round pick for someone like Prestia, especially if we pay some salary.

How I see this type of strategy playing out:

1. We can maximise the leadership skills of guys like Cotchin, Riewoldt, Astbury, Grimes, Houli etc and allow them to play out their careers with complete dignity. The new draftees should benefit from playing their early careers with those guys who know what it takes to be successful.

2. You plummet down the ladder by fielding a team of mainly ageing stars and good draft picks - potential stars of the future, though not necessarily bottoming right out. This should bring in some very valuable high end draft picks over the course of 3 seasons or so. It should also allow us to get into a better salary cap position to set up for our next tilt at success.

3. Use the inevitable top 10 picks to draft at least one high end key back, key forward and at least 2 high end inside mids and perhaps a really good winger. These players hopefully join the likes of Graham, Balta, Bolton, Short, Baker, and the best of our current youngsters to form the basis of our next premiership team. Where we miss at the draft for whatever reason, then and only then you get the shopping trolley out and look at expensive trades or free agents.

We have a fantastic draft hand this year to kickstart this process. All we need to do now is not make the schoolboy error of winning the flag agin. ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚
Stopped reading at โ€˜trade out vlastuinโ€™...
 

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Dr Tigris

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If multiple teams go past our best 22 in this years finals the club will have some interesting choices to make. One option I would love the club to consider is along these lines:

Keep the best leaders, and a good group of mature players. But see if there are 1-2 players with currency who can be traded out. Vlastuin to Cats given he already has a residence down there might be one, as unthinkable as it is. 2022 first rounder for him has to be a possibility. No fire sales, no players forced out against their will, just if you can find a situation like this where both the club and player are happy with it, then do it. Who knows, someone like Prestia may be happy to play out his remaining years at a contending club, again, you might get upgraded to a late first round pick for someone like Prestia, especially if we pay some salary.

How I see this type of strategy playing out:

1. We can maximise the leadership skills of guys like Cotchin, Riewoldt, Astbury, Grimes, Houli etc and allow them to play out their careers with complete dignity. The new draftees should benefit from playing their early careers with those guys who know what it takes to be successful.

2. You plummet down the ladder by fielding a team of mainly ageing stars and good draft picks - potential stars of the future, though not necessarily bottoming right out. This should bring in some very valuable high end draft picks over the course of 3 seasons or so. It should also allow us to get into a better salary cap position to set up for our next tilt at success.

3. Use the inevitable top 10 picks to draft at least one high end key back, key forward and at least 2 high end inside mids and perhaps a really good winger. These players hopefully join the likes of Graham, Balta, Bolton, Short, Baker, and the best of our current youngsters to form the basis of our next premiership team. Where we miss at the draft for whatever reason, then and only then you get the shopping trolley out and look at expensive trades or free agents.

We have a fantastic draft hand this year to kickstart this process. All we need to do now is not make the schoolboy error of winning the flag agin. ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚

This is all theoretical right?

Trade out Vlas! And Prestia!

OK, I like a good trade and draft scenario. But I'd rather keep the ship steady and rebuild as we go. Win another premiership or 2, the schoolboy error as you say. Then see how we go as our older core drops away.
 

TigerTime88

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I think we could just do a refresh at least for a couple of years. Some young first rounders who can make an immediate impact like Rozee and Butters at Port combined with trading in a senior midfield and defender to replace Cotchin and Grimes when they go.
 

Meteoric Rise

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This is all theoretical right?

Trade out Vlas! And Prestia!

OK, I like a good trade and draft scenario. But I'd rather keep the ship steady and rebuild as we go. Win another premiership or 2, the schoolboy error as you say. Then see how we go as our older core drops away.
Yes it is in no way a prediction of what will happen. I think this type of rebuild by the club is highly unlikely. But that is what a radical rebuild done properly might look like.

Just one possible option if they wanted to get serious about setting up another Premiership dynasty. My slight concern is Neil Balmeโ€™s statement that they want to look to remain competitive long term, Geelong style. I am not a big fan of that model.
 

Mr Magic

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If Dusty wants to see his father in the stands at a GF winning for Tigerland it might be wise we go hard in the draft this year to allow sufficient time for the draftees to develop and the list to re-shape while Dusty is in his prime. Bit like Port in recent years I suppose.

Clearly we need to play more youth to regenerate and find more support for Dusty, Bolton and Balta
 

CASEYS9420

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Meteoric Rise

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Anyone catch this from Slobbo "This is a wonderful footy season, no I don't think Richmond can win the Premiership the year" ๐Ÿ˜‚ Its R7. Slobbo's excited


Yes I was getting close to writing our flag chances off to be honest, but Robbo writing us off gave me renewed hope that we probably will win it. ๐Ÿ˜
 

tora tora tora

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Yes it is in no way a prediction of what will happen. I think this type of rebuild by the club is highly unlikely. But that is what a radical rebuild done properly might look like.

Just one possible option if they wanted to get serious about setting up another Premiership dynasty. My slight concern is Neil Balmeโ€™s statement that they want to look to remain competitive long term, Geelong style. I am not a big fan of that model.
I admire Geelong FC's ability to be at the top of the ladder for the last decade. Their unique geography (for an AFL team) has appeal. Dangerfield & Ablett & others wanted to go home there. They cost the club a lot in draft picks. But are talent. Geelong Falcons are a good development organisation. It attracts young talent.
Geelong looks like its going all out for a crack at the flag. Mixed results so far. Underwhelming at first but phenomenal last week.

As Cotch, Houli and Dave etc step out of the picture I'd be using their salary on established talent up to 27, 28 y.o. While continue drafting. Kind of what HFC did.
Drafting is such a long game. 3 years in and RCD is debuting. CCJ played one game.
 

Jonesracing82

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If multiple teams go past our best 22 in this years finals the club will have some interesting choices to make. One option I would love the club to consider is along these lines:

Keep the best leaders, and a good group of mature players. But see if there are 1-2 players with currency who can be traded out. Vlastuin to Cats given he already has a residence down there might be one, as unthinkable as it is. 2022 first rounder for him has to be a possibility. No fire sales, no players forced out against their will, just if you can find a situation like this where both the club and player are happy with it, then do it. Who knows, someone like Prestia may be happy to play out his remaining years at a contending club, again, you might get upgraded to a late first round pick for someone like Prestia, especially if we pay some salary.

How I see this type of strategy playing out:

1. We can maximise the leadership skills of guys like Cotchin, Riewoldt, Astbury, Grimes, Houli etc and allow them to play out their careers with complete dignity. The new draftees should benefit from playing their early careers with those guys who know what it takes to be successful.

2. You plummet down the ladder by fielding a team of mainly ageing stars and good draft picks - potential stars of the future, though not necessarily bottoming right out. This should bring in some very valuable high end draft picks over the course of 3 seasons or so. It should also allow us to get into a better salary cap position to set up for our next tilt at success.

3. Use the inevitable top 10 picks to draft at least one high end key back, key forward and at least 2 high end inside mids and perhaps a really good winger. These players hopefully join the likes of Graham, Balta, Bolton, Short, Baker, and the best of our current youngsters to form the basis of our next premiership team. Where we miss at the draft for whatever reason, then and only then you get the shopping trolley out and look at expensive trades or free agents.

We have a fantastic draft hand this year to kickstart this process. All we need to do now is not make the schoolboy error of winning the flag agin. ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚
This the definition of "doing a LOLthorn". no thx! We draft & add these kids in while Vlas/Pres etc are in thier prime
 

Jonesracing82

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Yes it is in no way a prediction of what will happen. I think this type of rebuild by the club is highly unlikely. But that is what a radical rebuild done properly might look like.

Just one possible option if they wanted to get serious about setting up another Premiership dynasty. My slight concern is Neil Balmeโ€™s statement that they want to look to remain competitive long term, Geelong style. I am not a big fan of that model.
I'd much rather the way we are aiming to do it (which has been the plan since '10) than doing what Norf have done for example. They have gutted what there was of thier Club & it'll take many yrs to get anywhere near being a contender. Cats have traded in ready made, we look to be doing it via the Draft which is very much the better long term way of doing it. We have seen what Butters/Duursma/Rozee have done for Port, we can add similar talent to our current side if we nail the Draft, that'd keep us up for a long time indeed
 

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Jonesracing82

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Jonesracing82

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I admire Geelong FC's ability to be at the top of the ladder for the last decade. Their unique geography (for an AFL team) has appeal. Dangerfield & Ablett & others wanted to go home there. They cost the club a lot in draft picks. But are talent. Geelong Falcons are a good development organisation. It attracts young talent.
Geelong looks like its going all out for a crack at the flag. Mixed results so far. Underwhelming at first but phenomenal last week.

As Cotch, Houli and Dave etc step out of the picture I'd be using their salary on established talent up to 27, 28 y.o. While continue drafting. Kind of what HFC did.
Drafting is such a long game. 3 years in and RCD is debuting. CCJ played one game.
It'd be different to HFC as they traded out of the Draft yr on yr & while it worked at the time, look at them now. Getting ready made is what FA is for but we must also be using the Draft for the longer term as well.
 

Mr Magic

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Club shouldnโ€™t be focused on a 4th & three peat

Play the kids & prepare for life after the old campaigners


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

One cannot take things for granted. Evolution is necessary to survive.

I just seen on a program some people overseas are paying 125K for virtual horses based on algorithm breeding and racing.

To maintain the rage in the future RFC needs new and quality talent coming in through the draft to compliment and revitalise our aging stars not to mention boost the hopes of contemporary Bolton, Balta and co's aspirations as well as attracting other stars as a viable future force. Look at Mundy, anything is possible and some posters where having a crack at me trying to get him as a FA despite his age in recent years
 
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PaulBulluss

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It's a tough spot, good arguments for either option.

Personally, I'm against the idea of refreshing/topping up, in principle. Someone mentioned Geelong, while it's true they've managed to stay at the top, their finals record until last season's GF run has been poor since their last premiership in 2011. There's a big difference between being just a perennial top four side and genuine flag contender.

In a perfect world, I'd take a rebuilding phase of 3-5 years with a view to creating a list that's going to genuinely contend after that period, and not just play finals.

Obviously, there's much to consider. I'm sure the club knows or has a good idea about what some of the older guys are planning to do in the next 1-2 years. I'm sure they're monitoring the kids that will come through the next couple of drafts. And they'd have a gauge of everyone currently on the list.

If the club figures it can bring in top end talent through FA next year and have most of our A graders back at their best (or near to it) then they'd have to consider topping up. We're not getting another Martin anytime soon and the rest of the cast has shown it can play its role, so it would be crazy not to try for another flag. However, I wouldn't like to see them risk it with someone who is a potential A grader in FA, sacrifice picks and then have it all fall apart when our older guys hit the wall and the FA player(s) flop.

So, essentially, I have no effing clue what we should do. :D
 

THE_GUN

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The beauty of this Richmond era is that we have actually been rebuilding whilst winning flags

2017 - Coleman-Jones , Balta , Naish , Miller , Baker , Higgins (traded) 2 players already best 22
2018 - Collier - Dawkins , Ross , Turner , English (turner/English delisted only due to list cuts) Ross about to play his 20th game
2019 - Dow , Cumberland , Martyn , Ralpsmith , Nyuon , Stack , Pickett
2020 - Ryan , Rioli , Mansell


17 players still on the list
1 traded out
2 players delisted (only due to list cuts)

17 out of 20 players drafted in the last 4 years remain at the club & 5 picks inside 40 in this years draft with 3 inside 25
we are averaging drafting 5 players a year.

I dont think i have ever seen premiership teams go this far into the draft before and we are going to utilize 5 picks this year in the most deepest draft in years
 
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YeOldTiger

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The beauty of this Richmond era is that we have actually been rebuilding whilst winning flags

2017 - Coleman-Jones , Balta , Naish , Miller , Baker , Higgins (traded) 2 players already best 22
2018 - Collier - Dawkins , Ross , Turner , English (turner/English delisted only due to list cuts) Ross about to play his 20th game
2019 - Dow , Cumberland , Martyn , Ralpsmith , Nyuon , Stack , Pickett
2020 - Ryan , Rioli , Mansell


17 players still on the list
1 traded out
2 players delisted (only due to list cuts)

17 out of 20 players drafted in the last 4 years remain at the club & 5 picks inside 40 in this years draft with 3 inside 25
we are averaging drafting 5 players a year.

I dont think i have ever seen premiership teams go this far into the draft before and we are going to utilize 5 picks this year in the most deepest draft in years
Sounds like a plan.
 

Bird Man

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It's a tough spot, good arguments for either option.

Personally, I'm against the idea of refreshing/topping up, in principle. Someone mentioned Geelong, while it's true they've managed to stay at the top, their finals record until last season's GF run has been poor since their last premiership in 2011. There's a big difference between being just a perennial top four side and genuine flag contender.

In a perfect world, I'd take a rebuilding phase of 3-5 years with a view to creating a list that's going to genuinely contend after that period, and not just play finals.

Obviously, there's much to consider. I'm sure the club knows or has a good idea about what some of the older guys are planning to do in the next 1-2 years. I'm sure they're monitoring the kids that will come through the next couple of drafts. And they'd have a gauge of everyone currently on the list.

If the club figures it can bring in top end talent through FA next year and have most of our A graders back at their best (or near to it) then they'd have to consider topping up. We're not getting another Martin anytime soon and the rest of the cast has shown it can play its role, so it would be crazy not to try for another flag. However, I wouldn't like to see them risk it with someone who is a potential A grader in FA, sacrifice picks and then have it all fall apart when our older guys hit the wall and the FA player(s) flop.

So, essentially, I have no effing clue what we should do. :D
exactly right, Geelong and Hawthorn have fallen to this method.

It also took Sydney to go down for a short while (and academy) to now be exciting prospect for the next couple of years.
 

Dr Tigris

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While you're in the zone go as hard as you can.

But we've also seen that drafting and developing kids can get you very good talent, while you're on top. Balta, Shai. baker, Aarts ;) .

I say go as hard as you can to win another premiership or 2. And as much as possible bring through younger players. When Cotch and Bachar go we'll have decent talent to bring in, surrounded by a damn good team. Get another Shai or 2 and we'll be a contended for years.

We're on the edge of a full rebuild whilst winning titles. It isn't either or, it's trying to do both.
 

Moppey

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To me refresh means basically now and Rebuild should mean longer term. I dont believe either should be mutually exclusive of each other. We should be doing both all the time. Refresh goes along the lines of bringing in proven ready to go players to cover a position fill a need or even give kids time to develop.

Rebuild is finding good young players developing those that are good enough with the goal to get a certain number of games into them in a certain amount of time and cutting those and going again with those who dont come on enough.

Imo we missed our chance to refresh for this year. I think with the age demographic of the best 22 the last draft/off season was the last chance to refresh while we had have a good chance of winning another flag. I mean a logical thing like taking a mature KPD as there is no backup in the system for Balta or Astbury would have been a good refresh type scenario this yr .

When we ignored trades and F/A and basically went with what we had on the list , apart from a few kids later in the draft we opted out of refresh. . We traded out of the early round of the draft so we could go there this year. I would say we are going youth this year and that would imply Rebuild in the knowledge that with the current best 22 at an average age of 27 plus this yr is probably the last realistic crack at success.

Just imagine it is say 2024 2025 and we have managed to keep all of our vets and mature players. By 2025 The age of the following would be.
Martin 34, Lambert 33, Cotchin 35, Houli 36, Pickett 33, Grimes 33, Riewoldt 36, Edwards 36, Astbury 34. Every chance all of them are gone by then.

Then theres the mature players blokes aged 25 thru 28 atm.
Aarts 30, Nankervis 30, Broad 32, McIntosh 31, Lynch 32, Caddy 32, Prestia 32, Vlastuin 30. If all managed to stay on the list to 2025 that would be 17 30 plus year olds . The point is in all likely hood by 2025 the vast majority will be gone or if still there in decline.
Over the next 4 yrs to cover for these losses it will be a combination of youth rebuild and refresh ready to go good proven players to cover for short comings add ready to go depth, and allow some of the kids who will need time to develop in the two's.

Finally some are saying we have got games into our juniors and im not sure that is the case.
The juniors make up the biggest body of players at any club usually.
We currently have 16 players aged 21 and under and only Balta 36 games and Stack 26 games have more than 20 games to their credit. After those two there is Ross with 19 games and then comes a big chasm with Dow at just 2 games, the rest have played either one game or none at all.

We also have 9 Development players aged between 22 and 24 that completes our 24 and under group. To me the development players are the juniors we have deemed good enough to keep after the initial 3 or so yrs. They are players who still have development improvement left in them.

We have managed to get good amount of games into 5 of the nine development players they are
Castagna 24yr/ 103 games, Rioli 24yr/100 gms, Graham 23yr/61 gms, Bolton 22yr/53gms, Baker 23yr/48 gms.
The other four are Chol 24/21gms, Naish 23yr/3gms, DES 23yr/9gms, Garthwaite 22yr/9gms.

In 3 or 4 yrs time along with a few of the juniors who are getting games it will be this group who takes over from the Mature and vets on the list.
There are some obvious questions to ask but i will leave it there.

Imo we are at a point where we must find ways to get games into players in critical areas and if we dont currently have the players for key areas then we now need to start getting them into our system. Critical areas, well look at the Development types we have two players who have got to 100 games and they are both limited small forwards.
 
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Mr Magic

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To me refresh means basically now and Rebuild should mean longer term. I dont believe either should be mutually exclusive of each other. We should be doing both all the time. Refresh goes along the lines of bringing in proven ready to go players to cover a position fill a need or even give kids time to develop.

Rebuild is finding good young players developing those that are good enough with the goal to get a certain number of games into them in a certain amount of time and cutting those and going again with those who dont come on enough.

Imo we missed our chance to refresh for this year. I think with the age demographic of the best 22 the last draft/off season was the last chance to refresh while we had have a good chance of winning another flag. I mean a logical thing like taking a mature KPD as there is no backup in the system for Balta or Astbury would have been a good refresh type scenario this yr .

When we ignored trades and F/A and basically went with what we had on the list , apart from a few kids later in the draft we opted out of refresh. . We traded out of the early round of the draft so we could go there this year. I would say we are going youth this year and that would imply Rebuild in the knowledge that with the current best 22 at an average age of 27 plus this yr is probably the last realistic crack at success.

Just imagine it is say 2024 2025 and we have managed to keep all of our vets and mature players. By 2025 The age of the following would be.
Martin 34, Lambert 33, Cotchin 35, Houli 36, Pickett 33, Grimes 33, Riewoldt 36, Edwards 36, Astbury 34. Every chance all of them are gone by then.

Then theres the mature players blokes aged 25 thru 28 atm.
Aarts 30, Nankervis 30, Broad 32, McIntosh 31, Lynch 32, Caddy 32, Prestia 32, Vlastuin 30. If all managed to stay on the list to 2025 that would be 17 30 plus year olds . The point is in all likely hood by 2025 the vast majority will be gone or if still there in decline.
Over the next 4 yrs to cover for these losses it will be a combination of youth rebuild and refresh ready to go good proven players to cover for short comings add ready to go depth, and allow some of the kids who will need time to develop in the two's.

Finally some are saying we have got games into our juniors and im not sure that is the case.
The juniors make up the biggest body of players at any club usually.
We currently have 16 players aged 21 and under and only Balta 36 games and Stack 26 games have more than 20 games to their credit. After those two there is Ross with 19 games and then comes a big chasm with Dow at just 2 games, the rest have played either one game or none at all.

We also have 9 Development players aged between 22 and 24 that completes our 24 and under group. To me the development players are the juniors we have deemed good enough to keep after the initial 3 or so yrs. They are players who still have development improvement left in them.

We have managed to get good amount of games into 5 of the nine development players they are
Castagna 24yr/ 103 games, Rioli 24yr/100 gms, Graham 23yr/61 gms, Bolton 22yr/53gms, Baker 23yr/48 gms.
The other four are Chol 24/21gms, Naish 23yr/3gms, DES 23yr/9gms, Garthwaite 22yr/9gms.

In 3 or 4 yrs time along with a few of the juniors who are getting games it will be this group who takes over from the Mature and vets on the list.
There are some obvious questions to ask but i will leave it there.

Imo we are at a point where we must find ways to get games into players in critical areas and if we dont currently have the players for key areas then we now need to start getting them into our system. Critical areas, well look at the Development types we have two players who have got to 100 games and they are both limited small forwards.
I think your underrating how long guns can hang around for and how quickly gun draftees can surge with a bit of quality development.

I read this and it seems your take is for us to go gun ho and go all for the now and then big rebuild. I think we can be smarter than that without going all for the now like Hawks and Geelong. I think we can do a Port and be very vibrant in 4-5 years with top drafting as well as other recruits like through FA and other options.

I would rather we win 4 to 5 premierships over the next ten years than get close in two, possibly win and then fall off a cliff. I do not want to see another 1980's when ego got ahead of dedication and focus and vision as well as drive.

Carlton are a great example of ignoring the draft at your own peril. They only seemed interested in number one picks after the spoon
 
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