Return to Zones on the agenda...

[kranky al]

I’m not Victorian

Then feel free to not include yourself in the “you victorians” comment.

 

[kranky al]

They're strong in the U/16 and U/18 comps, but it doesn't translate to draftees or quality AFL footballers as much as it should.

interesting - theres a quality bunch of eagles running round from south oz that i think most teams would be happy with.

 

[____]

Why would you get rid of the one mechanism that provides some semblance of equality in the league?

The one mechanism that provides equality in the league is the salary cap, not the draft. The stats also back this up.

Since 2001 the NRL (no draft) has had 12 unique premiers (13 if you count *), no team going back-to-back, no team doing a 3-in-5 and no team legally doing a 2-in-3. The AFL (draft) by comparison has had 9 unique premiers, two teams threepeat and another win 3 in 5 years. In the NRL every team has made a prelim in the past decade (16 out of 16), AFL by comparison has had 13/18 teams make a prelim. Every NRL team has won at least two finals in the past decade, in the AFL Essendon haven't won a final since 2004, Melbourne haven't made finals since 2006 and us 2009. Gold Coast have never made a final. But tell me how the draft creates an even competition

 

[kranky al]

The one mechanism that provides equality in the league is the salary cap, not the draft. The stats also back this up.

Since 2001 the NRL (no draft) has had 12 unique premiers (13 if you count *), no team going back-to-back, no team doing a 3-in-5 and no team legally doing a 2-in-3. The AFL (draft) by comparison has had 9 unique premiers, two teams threepeat and another win 3 in 5 years. In the NRL every team has made a prelim in the past decade (16 out of 16), AFL by comparison has had 13/18 teams make a prelim. Every NRL team has won at least two finals in the past decade, in the AFL Essendon haven't won a final since 2004, Melbourne haven't made finals since 2006 and us 2009. Gold Coast have never made a final. But tell me how the draft creates an even competition

If you guys weren’t haemorrhaging players you would be one of the star teams of the comp by now.

Your drafting has been quality - you just havnt been able to hold on to them.

 

[____]

If you guys weren’t haemorrhaging players you would be one of the star teams of the comp by now.

Your drafting has been quality - you just havnt been able to hold on to them.

That is part of the reason why I want the draft gone. Karnezis and Aish should have been Pies to begin with, Yeo should have been an Eagle, Docerthy a Blue etc. While D. Beams, Bell, Christensen, Cameron, Robinson etc. should have been Lions to begin with. If a player comes to our club because they want to be here they won't leave after two years and it would be better for our club culture. As the point I made before, no draft is beneficial to the Storm for the reasons I have just pointed out

 

[Sir_Loin]

The one mechanism that provides equality in the league is the salary cap, not the draft. The stats also back this up.

Since 2001 the NRL (no draft) has had 12 unique premiers (13 if you count *), no team going back-to-back, no team doing a 3-in-5 and no team legally doing a 2-in-3. The AFL (draft) by comparison has had 9 unique premiers, two teams threepeat and another win 3 in 5 years. In the NRL every team has made a prelim in the past decade (16 out of 16), AFL by comparison has had 13/18 teams make a prelim. Every NRL team has won at least two finals in the past decade, in the AFL Essendon haven't won a final since 2004, Melbourne haven't made finals since 2006 and us 2009. Gold Coast have never made a final. But tell me how the draft creates an even competition

So your contention is that if there were zones Essendon, Melbourne, Gold Coast and Brisbane would have had more chance to make a final? What’s the causal link between zones and finals appearances?

You make no allowance for poor club management, investment, development programs, FD spend in any of your argument.

The draft was brought in specifically to even up the competition. It’s an equalisation measure like a salary cap is. How would a zone equalise the competition - further than what it has now?

 

[kranky al]

That is part of the reason why I want the draft gone. Karnezis and Aish should have been Pies to begin with, Yeo should have been an Eagle, Docerthy a Blue etc. While D. Beams, Bell, Christensen, Cameron, Robinson etc. should have been Lions to begin with. If a player comes to our club because they want to be here they won't leave after two years and it would be better for our club culture. As the point I made before, no draft is beneficial to the Storm for the reasons I have just pointed out

About 1/3rd of our team are south australians - we have lost one sa player that i can think of - you are obviously soured with your experience - but with respect i think thats down to internal problems within the club

The go home 5 didnt come out of nowhere

 

[____]

About 1/3rd of our team are south australians - we have lost one sa player that i can think of - you are obviously soured with your experience - but with respect i think thats down to internal problems within the club

The go home 5 didnt come out of nowhere

Karnezis was a childhood Pies fan - requested trade to Collingwood.
Polec was a childhood Port fan - requested trade to Port
Docerthy was a childhood Blues fan - requested trade to Carlton

We're not only club losing players to "homesickness" either:
Howe childhood Pies fan
Hoskin-Elliot childhood Pies fan
Lever childhood Demons fan
Bell childhood Lions fan

Players like Harris Andrews and Eric Hipwood both Queenslanders signed contract extentions mid-last year when we were dead last. Those are the players who would never willingly leave us no matter how much of a basketcase we are. I'd rather have a Mitch Robinson who isn't the most talented but wants to be at the club and gives 100% for the jumper every time rather than a Polec who is naturally talented but gives no effort and doesn't want to be there.

 

[____]

So your contention is that if there were zones Essendon, Melbourne, Gold Coast and Brisbane would have had more chance to make a final? What’s the causal link between zones and finals appearances?

You make no allowance for poor club management, investment, development programs, FD spend in any of your argument.

The draft was brought in specifically to even up the competition. It’s an equalisation measure like a salary cap is. How would a zone equalise the competition - further than what it has now?

You haven't read my original post, I am not advocating zones at all. Read my original posts again

 

[NoobPie]

I am all for getting rid of the draft but having a zone is just as ridiculous. Wish the AFL would adopt the same system that literally EVERY sport outside North America uses and let juniors pick which team they wanna play for (out of the teams willing to offer them a contract). A salary cap and list limit will ensure the talent is evenly distributed


No draft actually is beneficial to the storm, every player they sign genuinely wants to be there and won't get "homesick" after two years

I'm not sure a salary cap or list limit is sufficient to ensure equal distribution of players

The other point of the zone based academies are the clubs have a strong incentive to make the pathways in those areas strong. They also have a far stronger "brand" to offer those kids.

In the US they have heavily resourced high school and college programs ensuring those pathways. In european soccer you have very well resourced academies operating in an absence of equalisation

Apart from european soccer, the NRL is pretty much "literally EVERY sport outside North America" if we are talking major commercial players. I don't know how that works exactly but I do know obviously that Melbourne Storm is the only team from a non-traditional rugby football area and has very little to show in 20 years when it comes to elite grass roots player development despite massive inward migration from rugby footballing areas over that period. The NRL also has huge swathes of rugby union in NZ and pacific to poach talent from

 

[Sir_Loin]

You haven't read my original post, I am not advocating zones at all. Read my original posts again

How would have Aish and Karnezis been pies then? Yeo an Eagle or Docherty a blue? How would they have made their way to those respective clubs under a system that is not zone based? Are you really advocating for a system where players choose the clubs they play for?

 

[____]

How would have Aish and Karnezis been pies then? Yeo an Eagle or Docherty a blue? How would they have made their way to those respective clubs under a system that is not zone based? Are you really advocating for a system where players choose the clubs they play for?

To your last question, if you had've actually read my posts previously you'd know the answer is 100% yes.

 

[QuietB]

The one mechanism that provides equality in the league is the salary cap, not the draft. The stats also back this up.

Since 2001 the NRL (no draft) has had 12 unique premiers (13 if you count *), no team going back-to-back, no team doing a 3-in-5 and no team legally doing a 2-in-3. The AFL (draft) by comparison has had 9 unique premiers, two teams threepeat and another win 3 in 5 years. In the NRL every team has made a prelim in the past decade (16 out of 16), AFL by comparison has had 13/18 teams make a prelim. Every NRL team has won at least two finals in the past decade, in the AFL Essendon haven't won a final since 2004, Melbourne haven't made finals since 2006 and us 2009. Gold Coast have never made a final. But tell me how the draft creates an even competition

Hard to argue with any of that

 

[Sir_Loin]

To your last question, if you had've actually read my posts previously you'd know the answer is 100% yes.

Wouldn’t work based on your own reasoning. They’d just choose the clubs that are dominant and whilst Brisbane continues with its structural issues is a Rayner really going to choose Brisbane as his preferred destination? Or a Hipwood?

 

[____]

Hard to argue with any of that

Finally an AFL fan who gets it! Pointing out facts to people who obviously only follow AFL does my head in sometimes. Same with the ridiculous debate about clash jumpers.

Wouldn’t work based on your own reasoning. They’d just choose the clubs that are dominant and whilst Brisbane continues with its structural issues is a Rayner really going to choose Brisbane as his preferred destination? Or a Hipwood?

Hipwood would as he chose to go into our academy in the first place and signed a contract extention when we were coming dead last last year. Although Rayner I concede would be unlikely. They wouldn't all go to dominant teams because those teams would have to make room in their salary cap to do so, if they did, they would have to offload an experienced senior player to do so. The NRL basically uses the system I am advocating, no team has gone back-to-back since it was called the NSWRL. I don't want to repeat myself but the stats back up the fact that it is the salary cap, not the draft, that works in creating an even comp

 

[Sir_Loin]

Finally an AFL fan who gets it! Pointing out facts to people who obviously only follow AFL does my head in sometimes. Same with the ridiculous debate about clash jumpers.


Hipwood would as he chose to go into our academy in the first place and signed a contract extention when we were coming dead last last year. Although Rayner I concede would be unlikely. They wouldn't all go to dominant teams because those teams would have to make room in their salary cap to do so, if they did, they would have to offload an experienced senior player to do so. The NRL basically uses the system I am advocating, no team has gone back-to-back since it was called the NSWRL. I don't want to repeat myself but the stats back up the fact that it is the salary cap, not the draft, that works in creating an even comp

I get the NRL stats you raised. I just don’t agree it’s all down to the lack of a draft. I don’t see how you can prove it.

You can’t say Hipwood definitely would have gone to Brisbane either. He was bid on in the draft. If he had a choice in the matter he could very easily choose another club other than Brisbane. And with all due respect given where Brisbane is at he’d have a fair bit to consider.

It’s interesting you bring up the academy though. Which is zoned.

 

[demondavey]

Wouldn’t work based on your own reasoning. They’d just choose the clubs that are dominant and whilst Brisbane continues with its structural issues is a Rayner really going to choose Brisbane as his preferred destination? Or a Hipwood?

They would always choose an elite club

 

[____]

I get the NRL stats you raised. I just don’t agree it’s all down to the lack of a draft. I don’t see how you can prove it.

You claim all the talent would go to all the top clubs, the NRL proves that is not the case.

You can’t say Hipwood definitely would have gone to Brisbane either. He was bid on in the draft. If he had a choice in the matter he could very easily choose another club other than Brisbane. And with all due respect given where Brisbane is at he’d have a fair bit to consider.

Would we even be where we are if there was no draft in the first place, we could have deleveloped youngsters who chose to be at our club in 2011-13 rather than the go home 5 who were forced to be there and got to go where they wanted in the end anyway.

It’s interesting you bring up the academy . Which is zoned.

He still had a choice on whether he wanted to join in the first place. Although I support removing zoning from academies. I'm against any idea that forces anyone to be at any club against their will

 

[TheSunGod]

Forget zones. Been there done that. Draft should change so that bottom six teams get 3 picks each in the first round from pick 1 through to pick 18 (eg bottom team picks 1,7,13; team finishing 17th gets picks 2,8,14 etc); middle six teams get 3 picks each in the second round; and top six teams get 3 picks each in the third round; then start over again. Currently the draft as it is is actually weighted to the top teams’ advantage. With more picks in the first round bottom teams would have greater trade currency every year which would hopefully even up the competition sooner and make it easier to move up the ladder. If the top teams still want a top draft pick they can but will need to trade into the first round. Our draft is too closely aligned to the American system but theirs works better because NFL is a truly national code; there is the conference system and the go home factor isn’t as strong with the college development system in place.

 

[Sir_Loin]

They would always choose an elite club

Or an elite environment. You can still be down the bottom but have first class facilities and everything else that goes with a well run club.

 

[Sir_Loin]

You claim all the talent would go to all the top clubs, the NRL proves that is not the case.


Would we even be where we are if there was no draft in the first place, we could have deleveloped youngsters who chose to be at our club in 2011-13 rather than the go home 5 who were forced to be there and got to go where they wanted in the end anyway.


He still had a choice on whether he wanted to join in the first place. Although I support removing zoning from academies. I'm against any idea that forces anyone to be at any club against their will

I just think you’re not considering other things other than a draft for the “go home factor”.

A comparison for the draft working in other sports is any of the pro sports in the US that have it. If anything, the AFL should be making the draft more like the NFL than it does now. That can be supported by greater player movement and in contract trading IMO as well the cap measures in place now.

Not saying the draft is perfect by any stretch but I think it’s a better solution than an NRL model.

 

[____]

I just think you’re not considering other things other than a draft for the “go home factor”.

A comparison for the draft working in other sports is any of the pro sports in the US that have it. If anything, the AFL should be making the draft more like the NFL than it does now. That can be supported by greater player movement and in contract trading IMO as well the cap measures in place now.

Not saying the draft is perfect by any stretch but I think it’s a better solution than an NRL model.

Not necessarily true, the NBA has a draft and the same two teams have played off in the final three years in a row, doesn't sound equal to me at all. And in the NFL the Browns literally have won one game in two years

 

[Sir_Loin]

Not necessarily true, the NBA has a draft and the same two teams have played off in the final three years in a row, doesn't sound equal to me at all. And in the NFL the Browns literally have won one game in two years

I’m sure if I looked at the NRL I could pull out a few teams who haven’t been travelling all that well the last couple years

And the teams that are dominating probably have more to do with free agency and trading than the draft

 

[____]

I’m sure if I looked at the NRL I could pull out a few teams who haven’t been travelling all that well the last couple years

And the teams that are dominating probably have more to do with free agency and trading than the draft

And those teams that haven't done well over the past few years are actually in the eight at the moment (don't believe me look it up), because they all have room in the salary cap to recruit new players after offloading spuds from their lists. This is why it is the salary cap, rather than the draft, that works.

 

[marty36]

I'm not sure a salary cap or list limit is sufficient to ensure equal distribution of players

The other point of the zone based academies are the clubs have a strong incentive to make the pathways in those areas strong. They also have a far stronger "brand" to offer those kids.

In the US they have heavily resourced high school and college programs ensuring those pathways. In european soccer you have very well resourced academies operating in an absence of equalisation

Apart from european soccer, the NRL is pretty much "literally EVERY sport outside North America" if we are talking major commercial players. I don't know how that works exactly but I do know obviously that Melbourne Storm is the only team from a non-traditional rugby football area and has very little to show in 20 years when it comes to elite grass roots player development despite massive inward migration from rugby footballing areas over that period. The NRL also has huge swathes of rugby union in NZ and pacific to poach talent from

Its interesting looking at the draftees and doing a comparison on what schools they are drafted from, whether it be public or private, and draw some conclusions from that