Richmond 2012

[_RT_]

lol that old bug bear when theres no other choice throw up the old you cant have 22 aa's. simple fact is no one has mentioned aa's or assumes we can get 22.

we either have depth or we dont pretty simple. imo we dont.if people dont like that assesment well tough i think its accurate. what do you want me to say. wow our depth is okay its not true so why pussy foot around.
when injury hits next yr its one reason why we will struggle.

as one of few who actually advocates we value add players to try to improve the situation you know what i mean take what may be a sevicable player to replace the clear below standard player.

nope we dont have depth we have below standard players who come into the side as soon as injury hits. most of the time they replace underperforming players or unproven players.

listen to yourselves pretend its alright. connors jackson white edwards mcguane webberley derickx gourdis graham miller thats most of our depth right there and it is laughable.and here on this thread we have posters arguing about the merit of those in the 22.

good for you we have depth iyo. every time i hear some one say this i will beg to differ.
we dont have depth we have numbers.

Looking at that list I put up in every position there is enough to cover for at least 1-2 injuries. The problem we have, which I already alluded to, is that we don't have that quality of depth that better sides do.

However if you look at the depth we have heading into this year compared to what we had when Hardwick took over its, IMO, much better now than it was. Over the next 2 off seasons it will continue to get better as our recruiting dept gets more resources to work with.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the players you have labelled as C graders also come on and improve on their current levels as we also expand our development dept as well.

As Rachel Hunter used to say, it won't happen overnight, but it will happen.

 

[Madtiger2006]

IF Grigg lined up on Jackson he would have a field day!
Opposition clubs are not worried about Jackson getting the ball 20 plus tikes a game as it's turnover city!!

Grigg is the one who turns it over constantly
Jackos kicking is elite compared to Grigg

 

[deledio7]

Sigworthy.

 

[Tiger Titus]

Grigg is the one who turns it over constantly
Jackos kicking is elite compared to Grigg

Compared to Susan Boyle my mum is a super model.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

Grigg is the one who turns it over constantly
Jackos kicking is elite compared to Grigg

Grigg over Jackson everyday of the week

 

[MightyTiger]

We're very thin on depth, especially on the midfield. Cotchin or Martin go down, and we're in big trouble. Even with them in, we are lacking with the quality of support cast.
Hoping Conca can make significant improvements this year, but really he needs an additional year in the system to settle a bit.
I put Helbig in with this as well. I rate him, and hope he can develop into a strong aggressive midfielder. He has very good goal sense, which is good if resting forward, but hes going to need another couple of years.

The area of least concern (but obviously not overflowing with proven performers) is the Forward line. But we've shown that we can cover Jack.

Santa, you should have put your comments after the players in bold.
i don't disagree on your assessments, tho theres a few players i wouldn't put so harsh. Post, if he shows improvement, will be a win for him. Rance, B grade, just.
But then, how what is the split in required A B and C players to be genuine contender for a Top 4 position?

So what happens if Judd and Murphy go down?

Pendlebury and Swan?
Selwood and Bartel?

Every team has the same issue, if your stars go down then a bunch of no names come in.

Heck we all saw what happened to St Kilda once Lenny Hayes went down this year, he was the engine to there midfield and players like Goddard, Montagna etc were made to look second rate for the majority of the year.

 

[RICHOLEGEND12]

your sick of tucks "crappy mistakes" ? holy shit its nothing compared to jacko

are you sure you know who jackson is? redhead number 23. bringing back the memories yet?

or are have you just blocked out all of jacksons games? it wasnt that traumatic?

i like jacko, but he was a major let down this year

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

List breakdown as at 1/11/11.

Rucks:
Andrew Browne 21 203cm 105kg 12 games
Angus Graham 24 201cm 102kg 47 games
Tom Derickx 23 201cm 99kg 0 games
Ivan Maric 25 200cm 102kg 77 games

Tall Forwards:
Tyrone Vickery 21 200cm 95kg 45 games
Ben Griffiths 20 198cm 99kg 9 games
Jack Riewoldt 23 195cm 93kg 90 games
Brad Miller 28 194cm 96kg 147 games

Tall Defenders:
Alex Rance 22 194cm 93kg 44 games
David Gourdis 22 193cm 91kg 4 games
Dylan Grimes 20 193cm 87kg 8 games
Luke McGuane 24 192cm 91kg 84 games

Tall Utilities: forward/back
Jayden Post 21 195cm 93kg 22 games
David Astbury 20 195cm 92kg 22 games

Medium/Small Forwards:
Dean MacDonald 19 184cm 87kg 0 games
Robin Nahas 23 176cm 70kg 55 games
Jake King 27 178cm 80kg 75 games
Brad Helbig 19 185cm 77kg 10 games
Matt White 24 180cm 82kg 82 games

Medium/Small Defenders:
Kelvin Moore 27 190cm 90kg 84 games
Jake Batchelor 19 188cm 78kg 16 games
Chris Newman 29 183cm 82kg 192 games
Steven Morris 22 185cm 84kg 0 games
Matt Dea 20 186cm 84kg 7 games
Jeromey Webberley 23 182cm 78kg 15 games

Midfielders:
Daniel Connors 23 186cm 84kg 27 games
Brett Deledio 24 188cm 88 kg 150 games
Shane Edwards 23 182cm 78kg 89 games
Nathan Foley 26 178cm 80kg 110 games
Reece Conca 19 185cm 78kg 17 games
Daniel Jackson 25 188cm 91kg 104 games
Shane Tuck 29 189cm 92kg 140 games
Bachar Houli 23 180cm 82kg 48 games
Trent Cotchin 21 185cm 83kg 61 games
Dustin Martin 20 187cm 86kg 43 games
Shaun Grigg 23 190cm 84kg 64 games


Looking at the list like that its not that bad for depth. There is plenty of cover in each position albeit not that highly skilled in some cases, but its still there. That is why we need to ensure that come draft night we pretty much nail it.

Nice breakdown RT, personally I think the players bolded IMO are either players who have no impact within the midfield or are midfielders who don't have any effect outside of the midfield .
Have excused macdonald and helbig, due to not seeing enough of them . Need to broaden these players roles and if they don't ship up , ship out , irrespective of how good they may play their single role .

 

[Madison]

For an inside player Jacko get sweet fa clearances, which is bar none, the most important stat for an inside player.

He doesn't get enough footy for an elite runner in his prime and he is an average kick with below average decision making, isn't a good mark, or a good negator and doesn't impact the score board. He often misses easy goals at crucial times.

He is hard at it and tackles well, but these don't come anywhere near making up for his con's.

Tuck in an elite ball winner and elite clearance player. He is an excellent mark and a great set shot. He is an average kick (something he clearly worked on due to his changed style this year) and an average decision maker. He is as tough as nails though and is an ok tackler.

He is much much much more valuable to the team than Jacko. He is far more durable and never gets suspended either.

 

[Madtiger2006]

For an inside player Jacko get sweet fa clearances, which is bar none, the most important stat for an inside player.

He doesn't get enough footy for an elite runner in his prime and he is an average kick with below average decision making, isn't a good mark, or a good negator and doesn't impact the score board. He often misses easy goals at crucial times.

He is hard at it and tackles well, but these don't come anywhere near making up for his con's.

Tuck in an elite ball winner and elite clearance player. He is an excellent mark and a great set shot. He is an average kick (something he clearly worked on due to his changed style this year) and an average decision maker. He is as tough as nails though and is an ok tackler.

He is much much much more valuable to the team than Jacko. He is far more durable and never gets suspended either.

Wins the ball and boots it anywhere which gets rebounded back half the time. I like him but don't think he makes much difference when you weigh it all up

 

[santa claws]

One of the most negative posts ever written. Newman a C grader?!? Do you even barrack for Richmond or go to the footy. Foley c grader? I remember very clearly how everyone wrote Shane Watson off and ridiculed his selection for the Ashes a few years back. He destroyed it and is now Australia's most important player.

Cotchin a future a grader?? WTF? Were you watching different games than me? Cotchin IS A grade already and i'll be putting money on him for the brownlow every year from now on to win it until he does.

Our list has holes in it no doubt but according to you, we're stuffed!

Fair dinkum.........

yep newman is a c grader so is foley.
just for you
A = ELITE.
B = VERY GOOD
C = GOOD CORE LIST PLAYER
D = DEVELOPMENT
BS = BELOW STANDARD.

Newman and Foley in the main have been nothing more than good solid players.yep they have at times played some very good games. they have also played some howlers.

for me no matter the player to be labeled elite you need to perform at the highest level for 3 or so yrs. hence cotchin is not elite imo.

a simple question do you think we have good depth i dont think we have i think most would agree with me so why all the anger.
we are talking about next yr and all i have said is the obvious. if we cop injuries we have no depth to cover and as such will struggle big time when the injuries happen.
theres a difference between having numbers which we have, and having players who can step in and play well and we lose very little.

we have numbers we dont have depth.
im happy for you to disagree with this but id say you are wrong if you do.
its simple do we have good depth or not.if yes we disagree, if no what are you arguing about.

 

[Tiger Titus]

Nice breakdown RT, personally I think the players bolded IMO are either players who have no impact within the midfield or are midfielders who don't have any effect outside of the midfield .
Have excused macdonald and helbig, due to not seeing enough of them . Need to broaden these players roles and if they don't ship up , ship out , irrespective of how good they may play their single role .

Bolded Nahas but not King? Harsh. I think Nahas has shown more potential to accumulate possession and be damaging through the middle than King, who offers nothing outside our forward 50.

I love Push Up, but the day he doesn't crack the 22 is the day I'll say we're real September contenders. He's all heart, but eventually we'll need some skilled small forwards (I will be watching McDonald's progress with keen interest).

I'm also inclined to give Houli a pass, his ability to transition the ball would be just as useful on the wing as the HBF (and he would not get shown up defensively as much).

 

[theflea]

yep newman is a c grader so is foley.
just for you
A = ELITE.
B = VERY GOOD
C = GOOD CORE LIST PLAYER
D = DEVELOPMENT
BS = BELOW STANDARD.

Newman and Foley in the main have been nothing more than good solid players.yep they have at times played some very good games. they have also played some howlers.

for me no matter the player to be labeled elite you need to perform at the highest level for 3 or so yrs. hence cotchin is not elite imo.

a simple question do you think we have good depth i dont think we have i think most would agree with me so why all the anger.
we are talking about next yr and all i have said is the obvious. if we cop injuries we have no depth to cover and as such will struggle big time when the injuries happen.
theres a difference between having numbers which we have, and having players who can step in and play well and we lose very little.

we have numbers we dont have depth.
im happy for you to disagree with this but id say you are wrong if you do.
its simple do we have good depth or not.if yes we disagree, if no what are you arguing about.

this comes down to your own definition of elite.

for mine its
superstar-ablett etc/ nil
elite-murphy etc/cotchin,deledio,martin nearly,revoldt
good-etc/newman,vickery,foley,rance etc
average-etc

 

[johnno77]

yep newman is a c grader so is foley.
just for you
A = ELITE.
B = VERY GOOD
C = GOOD CORE LIST PLAYER
D = DEVELOPMENT
BS = BELOW STANDARD.

These ratings don't match your assesment of someone else's list of players BTW

Newman and Foley in the main have been nothing more than good solid players.yep they have at times played some very good games. they have also played some howlers.

for me no matter the player to be labeled elite you need to perform at the highest level for 3 or so yrs. hence cotchin is not elite imo.

a simple question do you think we have good depth i dont think we have i think most would agree with me so why all the anger.
we are talking about next yr and all i have said is the obvious. if we cop injuries we have no depth to cover and as such will struggle big time when the injuries happen.
theres a difference between having numbers which we have, and having players who can step in and play well and we lose very little.

we have numbers we dont have depth.
im happy for you to disagree with this but id say you are wrong if you do.
its simple do we have good depth or not.if yes we disagree, if no what are you arguing about.

It's pretty easy to pull someone else's list of players apart and bring absolutely nothing positive yourself to the table. If you're that pessimistic about it all then I would have hated to have read your posts during the Wallace/Miller era...or worse through the 80's + 90's.

Sorry, I didn't realise that there was a 3 year amnesty before you could be considered elite. Trent Cotchin was probably elite from the time he burst out of a place where the sun does not shine. That was on display for all to see when he debuted against the Cats on a miserable day and handled the pill as though it were dry.

As far as depth goes, it's improving. Yes I believe that come round 1, 2012 that our depth will be good. Good but not great and that's where we need to get to to play off in the big one. The only teams with great depth in 2011 were Coll + Geel.

West Coast and Freo provide a good example to look at. West Coast had a reasonable run with injury, a lot of kids step up (Shuey, Darling, Gaff) and some senior players get some touch back (Embley, Kerr, Cox, Glass) and finished top 4. Freo were much more highly rated but were obliterated with injuries and missed altogether.

If we get a similar number of kids to step up next year as WC (see Post, Astbury, Vickery again, Helbig, Batchelor, Conca), have players with injuries or who have yet to show their best (Foley, Newman, Conners, Moore) and have a similar run with injuries as last year, then we will make the 8. Every year is different so that wont happen. I just hope it's better rather than worse.

A question for you: Do you seriously only rate 4 players on our list?

An answer for you: Why all the anger? Your disrespect of our captain in particular is a disgrace. He is all class. He may have had a few quiet games but howlers?! Howlers are played by duds, not by Newman and he will be back next year. He's only 29 FFS......

 

[El Tigre]

So what happens if Judd and Murphy go down?

Pendlebury and Swan?
Selwood and Bartel?

Every team has the same issue, if your stars go down then a bunch of no names come in.

Heck we all saw what happened to St Kilda once Lenny Hayes went down this year, he was the engine to there midfield and players like Goddard, Montagna etc were made to look second rate for the majority of the year.

Every team hurts without their "star" players, but our quality drops off exponentially. Thats what a fair bit of this discussion has been about, having a good support cast that
a) lighten the load of the star players
b) can cover for them adequately when they are well held or not playing

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Bolded Nahas but not King? Harsh. I think Nahas has shown more potential to accumulate possession and be damaging through the middle than King, who offers nothing outside our forward 50.

I love Push Up, but the day he doesn't crack the 22 is the day I'll say we're real September contenders. He's all heart, but eventually we'll need some skilled small forwards (I will be watching McDonald's progress with keen interest).

I'm also inclined to give Houli a pass, his ability to transition the ball would be just as useful on the wing as the HBF (and he would not get shown up defensively as much).

Nahas was terrible , as expected due to size, when he was trialle inside the square . King can play that role !

 

[El Tigre]

Its semantics, but for me
A+ is elite
A is excellent
B is very good
C is average (delist if no D's to delist)
D is poor (automatic delist if they have moved out from Initial Development Phase, (IDP))

And then there is Development considerations. Eg: Browne gets a D, but he's clear still in the IDP, so is excused. Because he's a Ruck, he gets a longer IDP than say Titch does. Titch is out of IDP, and gets a C (just).

 

[OnTheFool]

Deledio as a Half Forward/Midfielder next year anyone??? thats a bloke that could kick 40 goals and average 25+ touches a game.

i only say this because i think there are plenty of mid defender types on our list (Batchelor, Dea, Houli, Newman, Morris, Connors). Deledio is far more versatile.

Morton and Taylor are gone, while who knows what MacDonald is about... leaves a few spots and id rather Deledio be on the HFF than guys like white, edwards, connors etc.

In an ideal world we would have enough midfield depth to have one of Deledio, Martin and Cotchin in the forward line at all times (which is why I hope we use our 1st rd selections on mids). At least on a half forward line Lids can have a license to roam and use his athleticism to burn opponents rather than having to worry about them. The few years he played down back will hold him in good stead... i think he would be a great cog of the forward press

my 2 cents

 

[johnno77]

Agree 100%

 

[deledio7]

Love to see it. He has all the attributes to be a really good hf/mid. Don't think it'll happen though.

 

[santa claws]

It's pretty easy to pull someone else's list of players apart and bring absolutely nothing positive yourself to the table. If you're that pessimistic about it all then I would have hated to have read your posts during the Wallace/Miller era...or worse through the 80's + 90's.

Sorry, I didn't realise that there was a 3 year amnesty before you could be considered elite. Trent Cotchin was probably elite from the time he burst out of a place where the sun does not shine. That was on display for all to see when he debuted against the Cats on a miserable day and handled the pill as though it were dry.

As far as depth goes, it's improving. Yes I believe that come round 1, 2012 that our depth will be good. Good but not great and that's where we need to get to to play off in the big one. The only teams with great depth in 2011 were Coll + Geel.

West Coast and Freo provide a good example to look at. West Coast had a reasonable run with injury, a lot of kids step up (Shuey, Darling, Gaff) and some senior players get some touch back (Embley, Kerr, Cox, Glass) and finished top 4. Freo were much more highly rated but were obliterated with injuries and missed altogether.

If we get a similar number of kids to step up next year as WC (see Post, Astbury, Vickery again, Helbig, Batchelor, Conca), have players with injuries or who have yet to show their best (Foley, Newman, Conners, Moore) and have a similar run with injuries as last year, then we will make the 8. Every year is different so that wont happen. I just hope it's better rather than worse.

A question for you: Do you seriously only rate 4 players on our list?

An answer for you: Why all the anger? Your disrespect of our captain in particular is a disgrace. He is all class. He may have had a few quiet games but howlers?! Howlers are played by duds, not by Newman and he will be back next year. He's only 29 FFS......

1/ whos pulling someone elses list apart.im looking at our players and rating them rightly or wrongly.
im going to pull my own chain though and say i have been right about our players more often than not.

2/ your welcome to label any player you like elite after any amount of time you like. part of my criteria is have them consistently perform at the elite level week in week out yr in yr out.
saying trent cotchin is very good is not putting him down but before i lump him in with players like judd and ablett he had better consistently perform at that level. yes he has all the attributes that yell elite but has his performances matched that rating.

you say depth is improving then mention a stack of unproven kids who are basically in the 22. depth is not about your best 22.

3/ do i only rate 4 players on our list. lol how you came up with that is bewildering.
theres about 20 players that i would rate from D = development show good signs or just need time. some may or may not make it.
for instance browne and gourdis are in this group.neither are established or best 22. they may not make it.
batchelor is in this category is best 22 and looks likely to make it. does one season make a player.if i had to rate him on potential alone he would be a c at the least that is a consistent good solid player.
those 20 then range up into a C rating ie newman foley rance thru to B very good atm in cotchin martin to A elite in deledio.
OUR SUPPORTERS ALWAYS RATE OUR PLAYERS HIGHER THAN THEY ARE AND WELL BEFORE THEY HAVE CONSISTENTLY PLAYED DECENT FOOTY.you only need to look at the griffiths board to see this

no im not disrespecting newman at all. you think hes something more than a good consistent player great. in rating him thats what i think he is a good consistent player theres nothing wrong with that.

if second 22 is your depth those in the second 22 are the ones we are talking about here.

just my opinion but ive named my best 22. leaving the coburg side i posted as depth players. after all if your not a regular best 22 that is what you are the depth or in early development.
in the main they are a ordinary lot. not one A,B,or C grader with 5 in development. add the fact we will use 4 picks and 7 rookies to round out the list and no we dont have good depth.
you could even question half a dozen of the starting 22.

 

[juss]

Deledio as a Half Forward/Midfielder next year anyone??? thats a bloke that could kick 40 goals and average 25+ touches a game.

i only say this because i think there are plenty of mid defender types on our list (Batchelor, Dea, Houli, Newman, Morris, Connors). Deledio is far more versatile.

Morton and Taylor are gone, while who knows what MacDonald is about... leaves a few spots and id rather Deledio be on the HFF than guys like white, edwards, connors etc.

In an ideal world we would have enough midfield depth to have one of Deledio, Martin and Cotchin in the forward line at all times (which is why I hope we use our 1st rd selections on mids). At least on a half forward line Lids can have a license to roam and use his athleticism to burn opponents rather than having to worry about them. The few years he played down back will hold him in good stead... i think he would be a great cog of the forward press

my 2 cents

We've all been begging for this on bigfooty.
As a junior he played mid/half forward and was the best player in the country at his age.

We all want to see him in a wing/HFF role, but I don't think that's where Hardwick wants (needs?) to use him.

 

[T4P]

We've all been begging for this on bigfooty.
As a junior he played mid/half forward and was the best player in the country at his age.

We all want to see him in a wing/HFF role, but I don't think that's where Hardwick wants (needs?) to use him.

The wing/HFF role is more spectator-friendly, which is why everyone is obsessed with Deledio moving there, but the role he's playing at half back is more important. There's nothing wrong with him playing where he is, and he's doing a bloody good job at it.

 

[theflea]

1/ whos pulling someone elses list apart.im looking at our players and rating them rightly or wrongly.
im going to pull my own chain though and say i have been right about our players more often than not.

2/ your welcome to label any player you like elite after any amount of time you like. part of my criteria is have them consistently perform at the elite level week in week out yr in yr out.
saying trent cotchin is very good is not putting him down but before i lump him in with players like judd and ablett he had better consistently perform at that level. yes he has all the attributes that yell elite but has his performances matched that rating.

you say depth is improving then mention a stack of unproven kids who are basically in the 22. depth is not about your best 22.

3/ do i only rate 4 players on our list. lol how you came up with that is bewildering.
theres about 20 players that i would rate from D = development show good signs or just need time. some may or may not make it.
for instance browne and gourdis are in this group.neither are established or best 22. they may not make it.
batchelor is in this category is best 22 and looks likely to make it. does one season make a player.if i had to rate him on potential alone he would be a c at the least that is a consistent good solid player.
those 20 then range up into a C rating ie newman foley rance thru to B very good atm in cotchin martin to A elite in deledio.
OUR SUPPORTERS ALWAYS RATE OUR PLAYERS HIGHER THAN THEY ARE AND WELL BEFORE THEY HAVE CONSISTENTLY PLAYED DECENT FOOTY.you only need to look at the griffiths board to see this

no im not disrespecting newman at all. you think hes something more than a good consistent player great. in rating him thats what i think he is a good consistent player theres nothing wrong with that.

if second 22 is your depth those in the second 22 are the ones we are talking about here.

just my opinion but ive named my best 22. leaving the coburg side i posted as depth players. after all if your not a regular best 22 that is what you are the depth or in early development.
in the main they are a ordinary lot. not one A,B,or C grader with 5 in development. add the fact we will use 4 picks and 7 rookies to round out the list and no we dont have good depth.
you could even question half a dozen of the starting 22.

for me there is a catagory above elite for the likes of judd and ablett. in fact there arnt many in that catagory maybe 4 or 5 in the whole comp(judd,ablett,franklin off the top of my head) so i wouldnt classify them as a grade bc that would mean the likes of hodge, bartel and the like would be b graders. but the superstars do better than these others players hence the superstar tag.

 

[OnTheFool]

I see the HFF as a more pressing issue than our HBF... we have about 6 or 7 rebounding defender type players and can easily invent another if need be. One of the hardest positions to play on the field is as a small-mid fwd and we are not blessed with many. King will be 28 next season and Nahas is building a tank to see more midfield minutes. Whilst it is true that we need good users/decision makers down back I think Newman and Houli can help the kids out. Deledio will play his best footy when he has a license to thrill. Will quickly assert himself as Richmonds best player again if given more time up forward and on the ball.

Time to try to win games... not just try to not lose them! I cant forget that game that Lids kicked 5 against the pies all those years ago. GUN