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Analysis Ross Lyon

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FreoGirl said:
Even if he wins us a grand final there will be people complaining that we didn't win by enough. After years of enduring crap festering in the bottom half its nice to at least have a chance.
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See this is where this argument keeps going wrong. Having a legitimate concern over one aspect of the way the club is being run doesn't equate to an unreasoned whinge about everything.

Its quite simple to say that Lyon has done an amazing job of turning the club into a hardened professional unit, that he gets the absolute most out of his charges and at the same time to note that he does appear to be quite stubborn in terms of the tactics he persists with against other teams who exploit us and that perhaps there are times when he could take more risks with selection.
 
E Shed said:
See this is where this argument keeps going wrong. Having a legitimate concern over one aspect of the way the club is being run doesn't equate to an unreasoned whinge about everything.

Its quite simple to say that Lyon has done an amazing job of turning the club into a hardened professional unit, that he gets the absolute most out of his charges and at the same time to note that he does appear to be quite stubborn in terms of the tactics he persists with against other teams who exploit us and that perhaps there are times when he could take more risks with selection.
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You don't whinge - you are constructive. There's others who can never be happy.
 
There's no excuse for selecting the some of the players he does. De Boer is not an AFL standard footballer, it's a known fact. He can't kick, his hands aren't clean, his tackles are sloppy. All he can do is run. There were at least two goals given away due to direct errors in execution by De Boer, and he doesn't do anything creative the other way to make up for that deficit.

The best thing you can say about De Boer is that he is super fit and a hard worker. That might have cut the mustard in 2012 for a coach looking to improve an inconsistent team that needed to value hard work, but in 2015 he should have moved past De Boer. Instead he's played 76 of a possible 92 games while Lyon has been at the club.
 
The first 17 seasons of this club saw us play 5 finals with 2 wins and 3 losses.

The last 3 seasons this club has seen us play 7 finals with 3 wins and 4 losses.

We're guaranteed at the very least another 2 finals in his 4th season at the club meaning that our finals appearances will have pretty much doubled the number of appearances in our first 17 years.

Just chill out.
 

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StingBitten said:
The first 17 seasons of this club saw us play 5 finals with 2 wins and 3 losses.

The last 3 seasons this club has seen us play 7 finals with 3 wins and 4 losses.

We're guaranteed at the very least another 2 finals in his 4th season at the club meaning that our finals appearances will have pretty much doubled the number of appearances in our first 17 years.

Just chill out.
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So?

Lyon made stupendous improvement to us in the first year he was here. By the end of 2012 we were playing football as good quality as anyone else in the comp. The issue is whether there have been any improvements since. We're still a good team that gets it done against most teams, but by no means do we play the best football in the competition. We outrun the minnows and hope to grind it out against the best. That doesn't look to me to be a coach that has evolved in the time he has been here.
 
E Shed said:
See this is where this argument keeps going wrong. Having a legitimate concern over one aspect of the way the club is being run doesn't equate to an unreasoned whinge about everything.

Its quite simple to say that Lyon has done an amazing job of turning the club into a hardened professional unit, that he gets the absolute most out of his charges and at the same time to note that he does appear to be quite stubborn in terms of the tactics he persists with against other teams who exploit us and that perhaps there are times when he could take more risks with selection.
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But E Shed the only side that has dominated us this season is the Hawks.We have beaten every one else .Maybe we just have to get used to the idea that the Hawks are a better side .
 
salim malik said:
But E Shed the only side that has dominated us this season is the Hawks.We have beaten every one else .Maybe we just have to get used to the idea that the Hawks are a better side .
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They are with the style that we currently play...we cannot, as has been demonstrated again and again, play a defensive game style and have the odds in our favour against quality teams who keep the ball
 
salim malik said:
But E Shed the only side that has dominated us this season is the Hawks.We have beaten every one else .Maybe we just have to get used to the idea that the Hawks are a better side .
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When it cones to the Hawks the only issue I have is that considering they are the better side why are we not trying different players or systems?

Having said that... I still think we could beat the Hawks in a home final. At the G... It's not close. You have to be able to score fluently and retain possession. Those are two of our weakest areas at the moment.
 
salim malik said:
But E Shed the only side that has dominated us this season is the Hawks.We have beaten every one else .Maybe we just have to get used to the idea that the Hawks are a better side .
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or that even the best sides will lose a few games a season. I liked the wrap up on afl.com.au

Fremantle
In hindsight, the Dockers were always going to lose at least once more before the end of the home and away season. Teams just so rarely go through the home and away season with just two losses, so 19-3 or perhaps 18-4 will likely be a truer indication of Freo's home and away season
 
poshman said:
When it cones to the Hawks the only issue I have is that considering they are the better side why are we not trying different players or systems?

Having said that... I still think we could beat the Hawks in a home final. At the G... It's not close. You have to be able to score fluently and retain possession. Those are two of our weakest areas at the moment.
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perhaps he was trying something different in the first half that didn't 'work out'?
 
Arcassius said:
I was being playful - we all want success, but there's no recipe to achieve it. As clogged has mentioned in the past, we don't have the cattle to get it done, and getting the cattle isn't easy in itself. The draft and trading are still crystal balling exercises, and then you throw years of development over the top of it - and see whether a kid has what it takes. I think sometimes we demand too much of the club. They make the most of what they've got, and we get frustrated because we all expect one single thing that is quite hard to achieve
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Nicely put. My question is that are we getting the most out of our cattle? I honestly don't know.
 
poshman said:
When it cones to the Hawks the only issue I have is that considering they are the better side why are we not trying different players or systems?

Having said that... I still think we could beat the Hawks in a home final. At the G... It's not close. You have to be able to score fluently and retain possession. Those are two of our weakest areas at the moment.
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Over the course of this season Lyon has put in place the potential for us to play the following forward line;

Walters Pavlich A Pearce
Mayne Fyfe Crozier

We also have Griffin/Sandilands and Barlow who have contributed up there. Taberner has been played and so has Clarke, and either could come in. Reasonable to assume Apeness would have cracked an opportunity if he showed form but that option was lost to injury. de Boer does spend some time forward but is far less of a permanent fixture there.

That forward set up is untested against Hawthorn, but is a significantly different forward line to our previous GF. Can it get it done? Not sure really, but it is a fair sign that we are trying "different players or systems".
 
Should have added that in the backline Lyon has also created a successful small backline structure for us which can provide more run and transition, yet still hold up very well against a taller forward line. In finals he may well revert to going with three talls, but the confidence and versatility that the team now has is useful at least and impressive at best.
 

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salim malik said:
Hope the Ballas detractors have realised how much we miss his pace and forward half harassment. Quick recovery and get back for the finals please Balla.:thumbsu:
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Never understood the ballas detractors on here. We need him in the team. Takes pressure off all our forwards and puts it on the other team on the rebound.

Can't get him back quick enough imo!
 
salim malik said:
Hope the Ballas detractors have realised how much we miss his pace and forward half harassment. Quick recovery and get back for the finals please Balla.:thumbsu:
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Balla is also one of the few guys on the team who understands that everyone can't fly for the same high ball.
 
If we were struggling to stay in the 4 there might be merit to this thread, but since we're 6 points clear on top of the ladder this seems a bit reactionary.

Keep in mind before this season, in our entire history, we had been on top of the ladder once. In round 1 last year. Despite our recent losses to Hawthorn and the Eagles, the results this year have represented an unprecedented level of success for this footy club. I'm happy to back Ross in until that success starts to show serious signs of waning (ie, more than 3 losses over the course of a home and away season).
 

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sproketman said:
So?

Lyon made stupendous improvement to us in the first year he was here. By the end of 2012 we were playing football as good quality as anyone else in the comp. The issue is whether there have been any improvements since. We're still a good team that gets it done against most teams, but by no means do we play the best football in the competition. We outrun the minnows and hope to grind it out against the best. That doesn't look to me to be a coach that has evolved in the time he has been here.
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We have also had the worst luck regarding first round picks possible. I think that has something to do with it as well.
 
if we make the GF and lose

he has lost 5x grand finals?


would he need to walk and have a break. I think very possible?


of course ross would get another job after a break... he could cherry pick which one too




Bomber Thompson, I think it would be a job he would be interested in??
 
I think it's fairly obvious that Ross Lyon is the best coach we've ever had, and is in the top-5 coaches in the AFL (and has been consistently since first appointed, no mean feat - look at how Woosha and Malthouse got left behind).

While there are genuine criticisms to be made of his overly defensive game plan (although he freely acknowledges the need to top 100 points regularly) and in particular his team selection, I don't see any validity in suggesting we would be better off looking elsewhere.

We have a list with clear deficiencies and almost-cooked players in arguably the two most important positions in the ground. We are not a quick team. We are not an overly skilled team. While selection changes could go some way towards remedying this, they also bring with them other genuine issues in a coming finals campaign where, generally, more experienced teams win out.

I firmly believe that Lyon and his style is the best chance we have getting the most out of the list. We're not getting Clarkson and even if we somehow did, it would probably take a year and a bit to refine that style (see West Coast and Simpson), by which time Pav, Macca, Sandi and maybe Johnno are gone, and i'm not even sure we have the cattle to do execute it. While I think Freo needs a mini-rebuild if we can't snag a KPF this year, i'll back Ross in to be the coach to complete it. The notion that he hasn't altered his style at all in the last 3 years is ludicrous.

The selection of DeBoer and Suban is a valid criticism. However, every single team has these issue. West Coast fans froth at the mum rapist, Hutchings and Hill (seriously how did that guy win the Glendenning, JJK was robbed) playing while Nelson, party boy Barrass and Newman play reasonably well for EP. Even Hawks fans are occasionally confused as to why Suckling is allowed to butcher the ball (contrary to his mythos) while Jed Anderson turns out BOGs for Box Hill.
 
sproketman said:
A game based around midfield pressure with a plus one rolling back will work against sides that can't stand up to the pressure and use the ball badly. But if a side can stand up to pressure (Hawthorn) or uses the ball well (Hawthorn again), or if that pressure is off for just a quarter (Richmond, West Coast) what's next? How do you win a game?
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This is why no team can win every game they play. No game plan is perfect.
 
TheMcManusNose said:
We have a list with clear deficiencies and almost-cooked players in arguably the two most important positions in the ground. We are not a quick team. We are not an overly skilled team. While selection changes could go some way towards remedying this, they also bring with them other genuine issues in a coming finals campaign where, generally, more experienced teams win out.

I firmly believe that Lyon and his style is the best chance we have getting the most out of the list. We're not getting Clarkson and even if we somehow did, it would probably take a year and a bit to refine that style (see West Coast and Simpson), by which time Pav, Macca, Sandi and maybe Johnno are gone, and i'm not even sure we have the cattle to do execute it. While I think Freo needs a mini-rebuild if we can't snag a KPF this year, i'll back Ross in to be the coach to complete it. The notion that he hasn't altered his style at all in the last 3 years is ludicrous.
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All very correct and observant points. We simply don't have another 2-3 skilled players on our list (I blame our recent failure on first round draft picks) that are in the 3-5 year player range.
Lyon makes up for it by 'positioning' his players. I've no doubt that what we saw yesterday had mini-trial tactics throughout the game. I'd almost bet that he wants them entering that QF hungry rather than rested.
 

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