Round 1 : Non Pies games discussion

[Zahki]

Collingwood does not have the best list in the league in the traditional sense. They have revolutionised list management though with a lot of good ordinary players well coached, well drilled and with defined roles.

We have the best midfielder in the league in Swan, two very good key forwards, a halfback line to die for...If we don't have the best list in the league we come damn close, and it's because our players are quality and our results last year reinforce that.

Keep bleating with all the other sheep about how it was all the game plan and if you rip the blueprints you can do just as well, but the fact of the matter is only Collingwood can play this press to it's maximum and that's because of the quality of the players we have executing it compared to the wealth of spuds trying for you.

 

[shawthing09]

You're assuming Essendon wont win by 15 goals next week.

Seriously though you guys don't seem to realise that you played a wonderful team game last year. Well coached and well drilled. It was not based on having the greatest list in the AFL.

You might want to wait quite a few more rounds before you decide who is going well this season. A few injuries to key players might make Collingwood not in that bunch. You have to wait and see anything could happen.

On the first point the two are not mutually exclusive. We weren't the best side by a small margin last year. I know people will bring up the draw and they are entitled to but if you look at the last 5 times we played Geelong and St Kilda last year (who where the 2nd and 3rd best teams in the league) it would be comfortable. You can't be that far ahead simply by having the best gameplan or best list it needs to be a combination of both.

As you mentioned our gameplan isn't some original beast, many teams have similar styles the difference was we had the team with the skills and fitness to play it in the style we did.

If you compared Collingwood's playing list to Essendon's line for line I'd say we would win comfortably on all lines, and in all important skills with the possible exception of footspeed.

On the second point the same could be said of any side. Remove Watson from your side and your midfield would struggle in the clearances which would make it hard to play the defensive style you do (as it requires the ball to actually get to your fowardline to lock it in) every side is vunerable to injury. I think our depth gives us a slight advantage in the way we are able to manage our players workloads (or at least did last year) but of course somethings are up to luck.

 

[shawthing09]

We have the best midfielder in the league in Swan, two very good key forwards, a halfback line to die for...If we don't have the best list in the league we come damn close, and it's because our players are quality and our results last year reinforce that.

Keep bleating with all the other sheep about how it was all the game plan and if you rip the blueprints you can do just as well, but the fact of the matter is only Collingwood can play this press to it's maximum and that's because of the quality of the players we have executing it compared to the wealth of spuds trying for you.

Which is funny because many pie fans will tell you that Pendles is better (myself included) FWIW I think Ablett is still the best mid in the game.

 

[HFF]

Collingwood does not have the best list in the league in the traditional sense. They have revolutionised list management though with a lot of good ordinary players well coached, well drilled and with defined roles.

lol keep telling yourself that.

Playing copycat won't yield the same results as the benchmark. It is why we didn't adopt Geelong's high possession game plan because we knew we didn't have the cattle to implement it better than them and more importantly, beat them that way.

Anybody bringing our brand to try and beat us will get their asses handed to them big time.

 

[Quicky]

I'm not sure that some of you watch other teams. Collingwood's game plan last year was not revolutionary. It was evolutionary. Zones have been played for many years. Forward pressure has been huge for at least 5 years. Malthouse teams have kicked along the boundaries since the 80s and for the last few years have got numbers around the ball.

So last year, and the year before, Collingwood moved the zone up and pushed the ball no matter where the ball is. This was a great improvement from a few old plans. I believe Essendon have improved on that. We use that forward press but don't religiously go along the boundary line, which is the main reason you guys miss so many shots, we set up around stoppages with some ideas from Geelong and some from Adelaide.

I'm sorry but the bold is a fallacy. Yes we use the boundary line but to suggest we do it religiously is incorrect. We often use the corridor to attack but do so when it is the correct decision and keeping in mind the potential damage from a turnover in this area of the ground. Malthouse has made comment in the past that he asks his players to make the correct decisions whether it is moving the ball through the corridor or along the boundary line. Check out this match preview from Macca19 and have a look at where our scoring shots have been coming from. Much more centrally than is commonly believed. There was a combination of reasons why we kicked poorly last year but i'd say the overriding issue was that the forward press creates many scrappy chances at goal.

 

[Ari]

True. But having the best list in the AFL sure helped. Essendon still have one of the worst, apeing our gameplan won't get you guys anywhere, you better hope Hird has something better up his sleeve than that.

Amuses me to hear that. You REALLY think Essendon has one of the worst lists in the competition?

The problem with Essendons list at the moment is that they are trying to work out if a few blokes can play. That coupled with the fact that we are waiting on a number of kids to put on a heavy AFL body.

That doesn't make us the worst list, just a young and growing list. HUGE difference. Worst list doesn't go anywhere, a list of young growing bodies is one which can prove damaging down the track.

 

[RattataIsSoCool]

a lot of good ordinary players well coached, well drilled and with defined roles

oh man, not that old chestnut

 

[RattataIsSoCool]

Amuses me to hear that. You REALLY think Essendon has one of the worst lists in the competition?

Decent young spine, terrible midfield and complete lack of class on the whole. Also absolutely no top tier quality in the 24-30 bracket outside of Watson. It'll be a long time before Essendon are taken seriously.

Bringing in Hird hasn't miraculously changed the state of your list. It was one of the worst in the comp last year, and it still remains in the bottom rungs today. Inclusion of the GC might have pushed you up a spot though, so that's a minor victory.

 

[The Get Up Kid]

Not sure if this has been put up already? But how the flying f-bomb does Rance get three weeks and Waite get nothing?

The concussion and substitution rules have cost Rance, because if they weren't in then Waite would've come back on and it would've been a better look for Rance.

Absolute BS if you ask me.

 

[Ed D]

Not sure if this has been put up already? But how the flying f-bomb does Rance get three weeks and Waite get nothing?

The concussion and substitution rules have cost Rance, because if they weren't in then Waite would've come back on and it would've been a better look for Rance.

Absolute BS if you ask me.

Yep, very strange, especially since last year the AFL specifically brought in a rule about hitting someone else's groin to stop that sort of thing. Rance was pretty stiff, it's one of those ones where the MRP would give someone else 1 week on a different game.

 

[The Get Up Kid]

Yep, very strange, especially since last year the AFL specifically brought in a rule about hitting someone else's groin to stop that sort of thing. Rance was pretty stiff, it's one of those ones where the MRP would give someone else 1 week on a different game.

I always taught "only horses kick"!

 

[mdc]

That doesn't make us the worst list, just a young and growing list. HUGE difference. Worst list doesn't go anywhere, a list of young growing bodies is one which can prove damaging down the track.

There's not really a difference. Every team with a bad list would describe themselves exactly as you have - "young and developing". Your list won't take as long to fix as some others because you've done the right thing and drafted some decent KP guys, but as of right now it's a pretty shit list.

 

[beez]

Re Adelaide - Neil Craig is a fantastic coach and knows how to use the cattle he has superbly. Big man and structure are so important and looking at their spine it looks fantastic. They just need Tippett and Walker to be able to work together and kick straight and they will be right up there this year.

 

[Pie eyed]

Yep, very strange, especially since last year the AFL specifically brought in a rule about hitting someone else's groin to stop that sort of thing. Rance was pretty stiff, it's one of those ones where the MRP would give someone else 1 week on a different game.

Back in the day, not that long ago either, an action likes Waites would have seen him taken off sans a few teeth and unconscious.

Seems a lot of the new Melee, second in rules were specifically brought in to protect dog acts from the Judds and Waites of the world from legitimate retaliation.

 

[Primetime Pricey]

Re Adelaide - Neil Craig is a fantastic coach and knows how to use the cattle he has superbly. Big man and structure are so important and looking at their spine it looks fantastic. They just need Tippett and Walker to be able to work together and kick straight and they will be right up there this year.

dont get sucked in, Craig isnt that great a coach

 

[The Get Up Kid]

dont get sucked in, Craig isnt that great a coach

That's crap. He's a ridiculously good coach.

He's gotten heaps from a list with questionable talent and a stack of injuries for multiple years. They've been quick to recover after down years without relying on top draft picks.

He nearly got a depleted, young squad over Collingwood late last year and probably should've won the game.

If that's getting sucked in, then I am the whole way.

 

[Primetime Pricey]

That's crap. He's a ridiculously good coach.

He's gotten heaps from a list with questionable talent and a stack of injuries for multiple years. They've been quick to recover after down years without relying on top draft picks.

He nearly got a depleted, young squad over Collingwood late last year and probably should've won the game.

If that's getting sucked in, then I am the whole way.

no he isnt. Questionable list? turn it up. He has had a list for the majority of his tenure that was def top 6 material until the last couple of seasons. He even kept on all those older veterans last season which was a massive mistake and he should have been getting games into the kids which once were given their opportunity played better then the vets did and finished the season strong.
He has made questionable decisions at the selection table in massive games and failed tactically ie. Massie on Franklin in a final and played Ricciuto injured to get a milestone which cost them a final. He doesnt get it done in the big games.
He nearly got a depleted young squad over us? They should never have lost that game at half time and if you want to go there how about when we defeated Adelaide at AAMI a few years back with the youngest finals side to win a game where we were massive underdogs. The Crows choke in finals, its a fact. The games they lose are ones which they shouldnt have.

I live over here, a lot of people knock him as a coach and its valid until he does something in the finals. Who gives a shit if you can win home and away games, its about finals.

The reason he changed his contract this year is because he knew the pressure was on and that he was a good chance of being sacked if things went pear shaped this year.

 

[The Get Up Kid]

He's been a great coach for a long time. That's my opinion and it won't change.

Did you see Mick's interview on Fox the other night? It's a narrow view to say a coach was poor regardless of the result.

 

[Primetime Pricey]

He's been a great coach for a long time. That's my opinion and it won't change.

Did you see Mick's interview on Fox the other night? It's a narrow view to say a coach was poor regardless of the result.

He was talking about a coach with a poor team, Craig has mostly had good teams to coach so when u dont get the job done in finals when in very winnable positions then u do have to question him.

 

[The Get Up Kid]

He was talking about a coach with a poor team, Craig has mostly had good teams to coach so when u dont get the job done in finals when in very winnable positions then u do have to question him.

So Sir Alex Ferguson has had a poor side in the last couple of years?

Watch the interview.

 

[Primetime Pricey]

So Sir Alex Ferguson has had a poor side in the last couple of years?

Watch the interview.

i did watch it and they were talking about 1 game during a home and away fixture, not a season or finals. How the hell can u compare Sir Alex to Neil Craig lol

 

[The Get Up Kid]

i did watch it and they were talking about 1 game during a home and away fixture, not a season or finals. How the hell can u compare Sir Alex to Neil Craig lol

Yeah that's exactly what I did. No point finishing this conversation. good luck to you

 

[Primetime Pricey]

Yeah that's exactly what I did. No point finishing this conversation. good luck to you

no need to be like that Get Up Kid, all im saying is he is more sports science then anything, thats what he knows best.

good luck to you too

 

[HFF]

Easy now you two.

Neil Craig is a good coach. You can't deny him that. He has made finals consistently 5 of the last 7 years and played in 2 prelims, 2 elimination finals and 1 semi final.

He has a win loss ratio of 58% which ain't bad spanning over 150+ games.

However, Adelaide are renowned for "choking" or under-performing come finals time. They just haven't been able to take the next step under Craig and that could be a combination of things form, injury etc.

Personally, I rate him but I can see why some don't as unfortunately, success is perceived through premierships.

 

[Ed D]

Craig is a good game day coach but I think overall he has a lot of weaknesses. Training his players too hard, hammering in the same game style and training routines into players making the players mentally tired, not having much variance in what he teaches and having predictable game styles. It worked well for him in his first few years, then it started to get stale which was when in 2009 half way through the season he realised this and changed his style a bit. He needs to remember to keep things changing or it'll be the same story and he'll be out of a job.