Autopsy Round 3, 2021: Hawks lose to Cats, Easter Monday

[westhawk]

Are you on Twitter? This should go on Brownless' page

Wish I had it after I saw his post on here. Would have posted it for sure.

 

[brew]

I agree that Howe wasn't our worst player, and to be honest I don't mind the errors he made trying to inititate agressive play by centering the ball. As other have mentioned, Hodge was pretty prone to those errors too (wasn't just the game against Geelong, there were dozens of examples).

The kick served no purpose... if the kick reached it's destination we would have still been kicking it to a packed forward 50.

There's a difference between execution errors and just brain fart ideas.

Howe has been consistent on the later

 

[Carl Spackler]

It is such a recurring theme in our games I am almost of the belief that they have been instructed to not lead at the ball carrier and instead hang back for the long bomb.

It might sound slightly conspiciry theory of me but I would have thought that the first insinct of a forward is to lead and demand the ball be kicked to them. For them not to do this suggests they are being intructed not to (maybe?).

It might be that the coaching panel think we can retain the ball in the forward 50 by kicking long to a contest but really the ball seems to waltz out of forward 50 pretty easily these days (we don't have Cyril or Poppy anymore) so why not try to get a few easy goals by hitting the leading forward?

For a fact this isn't true because they aren't contesting the long bomb either. They are being outnumbered 2 or 3 to 1 at the point of bomb. Their running patterns are a mess. The front line is disorganised and neither presenting opportunities nor contesting the default options. Something clicked in the last quarter when suddenly Mitch Lewis started contesting every ball that came within 25 meters of him. He snagged one, he contested every other and gave the crumbers some options.

But even that aside, the front line also had no defense. Geelong rebounded without threat at least 2/3's of the time.

The unfortunate fact is that the front line is playing very unsophisticated ball at the moment. They need a lot of remedial practice, maybe with blindfolds on, so that they know where to run and were to contest every single time. They sure need some sort of coaching improvement.

 

[burner1]

It is not the instruction. That is a fallacy we do not train for it. We spent all of Friday training to transition quickly and kick to players on the lead. Its easy to do at training. In game the opposition just do not allow you the space. which means the player kicking it has to have the courage to switch the play to get to the fat side and or the forward player needs to instinctively lead. We just couldn't get any switches happening as our kicks ended up leading to the player going back on the mark slipping over or turning it over. We lost momentum on the switch and very rarely did our players come up at the ball. There is no coach edict to not lead up at the ball. We have trained a different way all pre season long

We need to massively improve our midfield transitions. It’s easy to say forwards should lead but when ball comes in very slowly against a well set and organised defence there’s not much space (but also acknowledge we generally don’t like kicking to leads).

When CJ attacked from half back or on the other rare occasions we moved it quickly (or via chaos ball) the zone was out of position and space opened up.

Yes we may train it - but our midfield is slow so while it may work it training the space and overlap just isn’t there on game day.

We need to find a way to get some better transition runners (eg downie, maybe Nash and possibly move scrim j to middle) into the midfield as train all we want but Morrison, howe, Phillips aren’t going to break a line nor the players to do a penetrating switch kick (even if howe technically made the right decision he’s not the right guy to make the kick).

Even cousins (yes has some limitations) is more naturally offensive that what we have (ie is good at finding space in dangerous spots).

We seem to have the right mix across half back but not getting the full benefit for it yet.

 

[StillAtLarge]

That switch by howe which got turned over was the right play Geelong had clogged up that part of the ground. We had to bring out around the other side in years gone by it would been Lewis to Gibson to Birchall to inside 50 on the other side.

Agree with this. Also, Burgoyne really should've attacked the footy in the air as we had a 3 v 1 (Henry) from memory

 

[satadaynitefeva]

 

[Simon Crawshay]

It is not the instruction. That is a fallacy we do not train for it. We spent all of Friday training to transition quickly and kick to players on the lead. Its easy to do at training. In game the opposition just do not allow you the space. which means the player kicking it has to have the courage to switch the play to get to the fat side and or the forward player needs to instinctively lead. We just couldn't get any switches happening as our kicks ended up leading to the player going back on the mark slipping over or turning it over. We lost momentum on the switch and very rarely did our players come up at the ball. There is no coach edict to not lead up at the ball. We have trained a different way all pre season long

I am not just talking about yesterday's game though.

The bomb it long to a contested pack/no one in particular inside our forward 50 has been something I have noticed one a weekly basis over the past 4 years.

I just cant believe that every single week the teams we play against are that good defensively to take away the option of kicking to a leading forward.

Some weeks sure, but every single week?

I mean we played Richmond last week and people said we bombed it long because of their strong defensive unit but then Sydney come out this week and kick 17 goals on them with multiple goals coming from leading forwards.

The level of repetition I see in how we go about our forward 50's leads me to conclude that it must be a team tactic.

 

[H2F]

It’s good to be excited about the group again, despite being 1-2.

if only we had a marking forward. We have to find one somehow. Over the best few years I’m confident we will become a force again but we don’t even have a prospect on our list that excites me as a tall forward.

 

[TylerDurden]

That switch by howe which got turned over was the right play Geelong had clogged up that part of the ground. We had to bring out around the other side in years gone by it would been Lewis to Gibson to Birchall to inside 50 on the other side.

Silk going to ground didn't help.
Hats off to Frost. Went on a 100m flat out sprint with 3 efforts and nearly got there. Bloke busts a gasket every game for us.

 

[H2F]

I am not just talking about yesterday's game though.

The bomb it long to a contested pack/no one in particular inside our forward 50 has been something I have noticed one a weekly basis over the past 4 years.

I just cant believe that every single week the teams we play against are that good defensively to take away the option of kicking to a leading forward.

Some weeks sure, but every single week?

I mean we played Richmond last week and people said we bombed it long because of their strong defensive unit but then Sydney come out this week and kick 17 goals on them with multiple goals coming from leading forwards.

The level of repetition I see in how we go about our forward 50's leads me to conclude that it must be a team tactic.

By kicking it high it gives us the extra seconds to setup our defensive zone. I’m sure we don’t mean it to be marked down there as often as it is but even when it is it’s still better we are able to defend somewhat. I’m not saying it isn’t annoying but when it’s kicked down there and Big Boy is there look at the difference. We just either have O’Brien drop the mark, Lewis get out marked or worse they’re in poor positions. Our midfield may not be kicking it well but we have no forwards who have any real presence which allows opposition defences to setup however they like, third man roaming wherever. Imagine Rough and Bud up there. Firstly they used to setup with that box thing where the name escapes me but they also dictated having defenders follow them which creates space. I wish Toby had come on, likewise Lewis, but they haven’t and that makes everything look like it is. I just don’t think it’s right to just criticise the coaches. It’s the cattle that we don’t have that makes it impossible right now. I said it earlier. Leave Big Boy down there regardless of the ruck, it’s going to add more goals than anything else we can do right now and will bring the small forwards back into our game.

 

[TheFourPillars]

I am not just talking about yesterday's game though.

The bomb it long to a contested pack/no one in particular inside our forward 50 has been something I have noticed one a weekly basis over the past 4 years.

I just cant believe that every single week the teams we play against are that good defensively to take away the option of kicking to a leading forward.

Some weeks sure, but every single week?

I mean we played Richmond last week and people said we bombed it long because of their strong defensive unit but then Sydney come out this week and kick 17 goals on them with multiple goals coming from leading forwards.

The level of repetition I see in how we go about our forward 50's leads me to conclude that it must be a team tactic.

I can assure you its not by design the last couple of years we are just not good enough or skillful enough to execute the plan we are trying to perfect

 

[Baz_hawk]

My 2c...

O'Meara was our best. Absolutely huge in the clearances, not sure how many he ended up with but he seemed to extract the ball a lot and get us moving. Also loved his candy sell to Touhy who basically fell in a hole of shame.

CJ has been a love wire for us this year and it's so good to see the coaching staff have really put him in a position where he had the freedom to use his athleticism to run and carry and really break a line. He and Impey will only make us better the more game time they get.

Lewis started slowly but I was pleased with how he worked himself into the game and took a strong make at the back end of the game. I think he a kozi are our future forward line and whilst in the first half they were both getting in each other's way, they seemed to sort that out much better in the second half of the game.

Speaking of Kozi, he had an okay game but seems to just lack that polish at the moment. May just be a confidence thing but he's young and I'm happy for us to persist and let him find his feet to start really clunking marks and kicking a few extra goals.

Brockman had some moments but was largely unsighted. Not a knock on him though, he's in his third game and the goal he kicked in the final term is exactly why he deserves to be in the side. Would be getting so much out of these games from an educational side for him l, another preseason or two for him and he'll be winning games off his own boot I reckon.

Moore was relatively quiet, not sure what position we are trying to make him play but he could probably be thrown into a centre bounce or two I reckon. Has better aerobic ability than what we seem to be using him for based on what I've seen.

Some things worth mentioning..

Howe copping a lot of hate but Worpel has been way off his best this year to date. At this stage Worpel is closer to being dropped for mine. Doesn't seem like we are asking him to play a different role than what he has done previously but he just seems to be a few steps off at this stage. Hopefully can bounce back to what we know he can do as our midfield can't rely heavily on O'Meara to win the bulk of clearances.
Frost defensively was good, played a solid game. Frost with ball in hand is a worry. Gives the same feelings I had when Chip had the ball in hand. I'd prefer he stick to the 55m bomb down the ground than try and pull of a cute kick as it's just not in his kit bag. Made a lot of unnecessary clangers that proved costly but also did a lot of good things defensively.
Hartigan was solid on Hawkins, was more of a the match up he is suited for. Another that's not the best to have ball in hand but he seems to know that and dishes it off by hand more often than not.

Can't see us making too many changes ahead of next week, doesn't sound like anyone really put their hand up at BH (Jeka did kick 6 but will need to back that up before being considered).

 

[MinerBoy]

It is not the instruction. That is a fallacy we do not train for it. We spent all of Friday training to transition quickly and kick to players on the lead. Its easy to do at training. In game the opposition just do not allow you the space. which means the player kicking it has to have the courage to switch the play to get to the fat side and or the forward player needs to instinctively lead. We just couldn't get any switches happening as our kicks ended up leading to the player going back on the mark slipping over or turning it over. We lost momentum on the switch and very rarely did our players come up at the ball. There is no coach edict to not lead up at the ball. We have trained a different way all pre season long

We might not train like that but it's happened for so long on game days (I'm talking back to the glory days) that I find it very hard to believe it's not part of our MO. It's been consistent and long term.

Our transition from back to front half has certainly changed. From the precision pick apart we were so great at to the more daring, less predictable and less consistent version we see now.... but the final connection in to the forwardline has been an enduring one for a long time.

So if we are training something else, I fear these kids will never get it, because even our superstars couldn't lol .... but at least they were awesome talents to manufacture goals anyway.

Goals are being scored quite easily now but we've rustled up 16 in 2 weeks because we still go over the man on the mark to the hot spot or pocket with kicks that the defenders seem to read even better than we do (weird considering we all know where it's going). But yeah we've played 2 excellent defensive sides the past 2 weeks so fingers crossed we either are more successful at it going forward or start executing more of that you believe is what we train for.

 

[Carl Spackler]

We need to massively improve our midfield transitions. It’s easy to say forwards should lead but when ball comes in very slowly against a well set and organised defence there’s not much space (but also acknowledge we generally don’t like kicking to leads).

When CJ attacked from half back or on the other rare occasions we moved it quickly (or via chaos ball) the zone was out of position and space opened up.

Yes we may train it - but our midfield is slow so while it may work it training the space and overlap just isn’t there on game day.

We need to find a way to get some better transition runners (eg downie, maybe Nash and possibly move scrim j to middle) into the midfield as train all we want but Morrison, howe, Phillips aren’t going to break a line nor the players to do a penetrating switch kick (even if howe technically made the right decision he’s not the right guy to make the kick).

Even cousins (yes has some limitations) is more naturally offensive that what we have (ie is good at finding space in dangerous spots).

We seem to have the right mix across half back but not getting the full benefit for it yet.

Your argument would be stronger if the forward line was contesting something. They didn't contest anything effectively until the last quarter. There were no meaningful leads presented until the last quarter (and then they were hit - Kosi almost kicked a gem off a lead to the pocket).

I think the strongest argument is that the forward line is full of good talent but they don't play a strong enough team game to beat the experienced backlines. AFL is hard work (duh, we all know this) and we have a forward line with Kosi (3 games), Lewis (23 games), Moore (13 games), Brockman (3 games). Those are some talented players but when paint isn't dry on the names over the lockers for half your forward line then you will struggle. Particularly when the most important forward line positions, the talls, have just one more total games combined than Harry Morrison, hardly a regular fixture.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I am not just talking about yesterday's game though.

The bomb it long to a contested pack/no one in particular inside our forward 50 has been something I have noticed one a weekly basis over the past 4 years.

I just cant believe that every single week the teams we play against are that good defensively to take away the option of kicking to a leading forward.

Some weeks sure, but every single week?

I mean we played Richmond last week and people said we bombed it long because of their strong defensive unit but then Sydney come out this week and kick 17 goals on them with multiple goals coming from leading forwards.

The level of repetition I see in how we go about our forward 50's leads me to conclude that it must be a team tactic.

It's easy enough to check (if one has the time). Point on on the tape where a lead was missed in favour of a bomb. I, for one, cannot remember a single instance of me pointing at a lead and yelling "Kick it! Kick it!" only to be frustrated by a bomb instead. I can remember be startled a few times when a lead presented. Normally Bruest running into an open pocket but there was a Brockman moment and a Kosi moment from yesterday as well.

I honestly cannot recall a single lead not being kicked at.

 

[TheFourPillars]

We might not train like that but it's happened for so long on game days (I'm talking back to the glory days) that I find it very hard to believe it's not part of our MO. It's been consistent and long term.

Our transition from back to front half has certainly changed. From the precision pick apart we were so great at to the more daring, less predictable and less consistent version we see now.... but the final connection in to the forwardline has been an enduring one for a long time.

So if we are training something else, I fear these kids will never get it, because even our superstars couldn't lol .... but at least they were awesome talents to manufacture goals anyway.

Goals are being scored quite easily now but we've rustled up 16 in 2 weeks because we still go over the man on the mark to the hot spot or pocket with kicks that the defenders seem to read even better than we do (weird considering we all know where it's going). But yeah we've played 2 excellent defensive sides the past 2 weeks so fingers crossed we either are more successful at it going forward or start executing more of that you believe is what we train for.

Our ball movement is different we are no longer kicking the ball around as we just do not have the skills to do so. In our hey day we had plenty of times where we found players on the lead. Gunston, Buddy, rough, breust loved leading out to players like hill, lewis, birch and mitch. Some teams are much more defensive and structure up well against us. Just like we structure well against other sides. I can put my hand on my heart and say that we are not trying to bomb it long. Sometimes that is the go to because all other options have dried up but we are trying to play differently

 

[eldorado]

The level of repetition I see in how we go about our forward 50's leads me to conclude that it must be a team tactic.

You've been told, God knows how many times, by people who watch us train every day, that this is just not the case.

And yet you keep repeating, that your 'conclusion' is that it is.

Can you stop and reflect a little the validity of your conclusions?

For every attacking stategy, there is an equally organised tactic by the other side to stop you from implementing it easily.

 

[Gaston]

Goals are being scored quite easily now but we've rustled up 16 in 2 weeks because we still go over the man on the mark to the hot spot or pocket with kicks that the defenders seem to read even better than we do (weird considering we all know where it's going). But yeah we've played 2 excellent defensive sides the past 2 weeks so fingers crossed we either are more successful at it going forward or start executing more of that you believe is what we train for.

Exactly !!!!

Question for those questioning your thought process, with Don Pyke the Swans have turned things around in a pre-season.
He had a high scoring, quality forward structures at Adelaide, now he has implemented the same at a new club.
Doesn't seem to hard north of the border, must be the water at Waverley.

 

[Maurice Mitchell]

MOTM for me was Hartigan.

Did what we've been asking for years - aka, punching Dorkins in the back of the head. 10/10 from me.

We have a ruckman on the sidelines for 12 months thanks to him. Missed out on a premiership as well.
No respect for that guy. Thankfully haven’t seen the shoving opponents into other opponents so far this year.

 

[grumbleguts]

What a flog. Geelong are going nowhere fast.

Hey Billy, at least Jeff doesn't look like he was poured into his clothes and forgot to say "when". Shouldn't pick on you though, will be forever grateful to you for helping us win the 1989 grand final with your abysmal performance. 4 disposals. In 100 minutes of actual game time, you touched the ball 4 times. Thank you for letting Geelong play a man down, it helped enormously.

 

[MinerBoy]

You've been told, God knows how many times, by people who watch us train every day, that this is just not the case.

And yet you keep repeating, that your 'conclusion' is that it is.

Can you stop and reflect a little the validity of your conclusions?

For every attacking stategy, there is an equally organised tactic by the other side to stop you from implementing it easily.

It's what happens every weekend, over many years, for me that defines what our forward half plans are. Not what we do weekdays under no pressure.

I mean... mannnnyyyyyyy years. I can accept we're training for a different plan but then after all these years if we're still attacking the same way there are other questions??

 

[Jaeger]

For those who caught the game on tv, how was Issie received by our guys during and after the match?

 

[The hands of stone]

Silk going to ground didn't help.
Hats off to Frost. Went on a 100m flat out sprint with 3 efforts and nearly got there. Bloke busts a gasket every game for us.

He nearly got there too , CJ riding shot gun also.

As deflating as the goal was , the chase sends a message that we wont give up and we will make you earn it . Thats the standard across the board .

 

[burner1]

A lot of people seem pretty negative on Lewis. He took a quarter or two to warm into game but after that Geelong seemed to get a lot less intercept marks, he crashed some packs or at least brought defenders to him - they had to respect his size and danger when one out (which is the opposite of richmond defenders vs TOB last week). By no means did he have a dominant game, but had a very good last quarter and signs that if he stays fit could be very handy up forward as a key target.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

Ceglar didn't take 1 mark, not 1, be interesting to see if Clarkson's love affair with him continues.