Ruck Coach

[Moo]

Last night on MMM it was stated that Freo do not have a ruck coach and they hinted that this is one reason why it would be better for Warnock to leave.

We have a ruck coach ...don't we?

 

[Belnakor]

I thought it was J.Lo

 

[Scham]

I thought it was big Earl?

 

[Sman-21]

i guess that means we dont have one

 

[MadMac]

Brad Hardie said on 6PR that "Crackers" Keenan worked with them recently. I wouldn't have thought that he would be on a full-time basis.

 

[freocynic]

If we don't have a ruck coach that is diabolical. What good are winning the hit outs when we lose the clearances???

Sandi averages 30 hits per game but only 4 clearances. A ruck coach surely would help with the clearances!?

 

[Scham]

If we don't have a ruck coach that is diabolical. What good are winning the hit outs when we lose the clearances???

Sandi averages 30 hits per game but only 4 clearances. A ruck coach surely would help with the clearances!?

I don't think so. A ruck coach would instruct how to win the taps etc, the midfield coach would be responsible for clearances.

 

[freocynic]

Surely they work together? Doesn't it make sense for them to work together? I mean who cares about winning a tap...the CLEARANCES are what is important.

When you say you dont think so Scham, is that because you know that ruck coaches dont help win clearances? I am just asking coz when i played (amateurs) we never really got into that sort of specific stuff.

 

[Lach72]

If we don't have a ruck coach that is diabolical. What good are winning the hit outs when we lose the clearances???

Sandi averages 30 hits per game but only 4 clearances. A ruck coach surely would help with the clearances!?

You do realise this is his personal clearance tally?

You also realise we have an 18 year old as our best midfielder?...and that our best clearance player is out with a knee recon?

 

[newlander77]

I would assume the midfield coach handles both roles and 'they' feel he does it more than adequately.

 

[Ripper]

If we don't have a ruck coach that is diabolical. What good are winning the hit outs when we lose the clearances???

Sandi averages 30 hits per game but only 4 clearances. A ruck coach surely would help with the clearances!?

Thats 30 hitouts to someone else to get the clearance PLUS 4 time He takes possesion and clears it himself.

 

[freocynic]

Of those 30 how many times is it freo getting the clearance? I heard a stat weeks ago that said it was us about 25% of the time.

 

[Chops_a_must]

Of those 30 how many times is it freo getting the clearance? I heard a stat weeks ago that said it was us about 25% of the time.

We have a negative expectancy from Sandi's taps the last time I saw.

If we had a ruck coach, surely someone could tell him he is consistently putting it BEHIND our midfielders running beside the ruck contests...

Reeks of more cost cutting from the yuppie...

 

[wehavethepassion]

I thought it was big Earl?

yes it is. Was eastaugh - Spider burton would be great

 

[Scham]

yes it is. Was eastaugh - Spider burton would be great

Not sure if he still is but big spider was Nth Melb's ruck coach (part time) last year and in 2006.

 

[Chops_a_must]

yes it is. Was eastaugh - Spider burton would be great

Ahaha... are you serious?

He is an actual ****** that man.

No wonder we can't tell if there is a coach or not...

 

[Lach72]

Of those 30 how many times is it freo getting the clearance? I heard a stat weeks ago that said it was us about 25% of the time.

Read this...again...next person gets a smack around the head.
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/afl/thestars/index.php/heraldsun/comments/the_great_ruck_myth

Gerard Healy
Friday, May 30, 2008 at 10:50am


RUCKWORK is dying. When rovers were given armchair rides by legends John Nicholls and Polly Farmer in the 1960s and ‘70s, the craft of ruckwork was celebrated.

And ruckmen were rightly lauded as lions who ruled the football jungle.

But research shows that in today’s football, despite what we are continually told, it is a very different story.

For many reasons, including defensive strategies of coaches at stoppages, the effectiveness of ruckwork is more myth than reality today.

FACT

Let’s start by looking at some facts and the most compelling of all is that only 22 per cent of hitouts go to advantage across the competition.

ON average only one in five, at most, of the clearances in football can be in any way attributed to ruckmen, according to the AFL’s official stats provider Champion Data.
You can argue the merits of the definition - a successful hitout is classed as one that goes to a teammate who is able to get a possession - but it’s not going to change the fact that this figure - one in five - is almost a knockout blow for those who believe the ruckwork myth.

And that is without even trying to estimate how many “hitouts to advantage” are the work of the clearance player who turns a non-directed tap into a first possession.

If you are still seduced by the ruckwork myth, consider the two key jobs of the ruckman at a contest: winning the tap and then successfully directing it. Of the 523 ruck contests the best tap ruckman has competed in this season, he achieved both objectives just 71 times.

DEAN COX

WEST Coast ruckman Dean Cox, the best big man we’ve seen possibly since Simon Madden, would command a $1 million salary if he was on the open market, but how much of his value can be assigned to ruckwork?

In 2008 Cox has won a hitout to advantage from 10.3 per cent of his ruck contests.

Of major interest, though, is the fact that this figure is 25 per cent down on his average from 2003-07 when he had Chris Judd, Ben Cousins and Daniel Kerr at his feet.

This suggests a significant proportion of successful hitouts are dependent on the receiver and not the provider.

AARON SANDILANDS

SOME say the tallest man in the game hasn’t delivered, but, in the ruck alone he is playing at All-Australian standard this year. For the record only - for this statistic is the most useless one in the game - he’s had 74 more hitouts than anyone else in the competition.
But so what - who cares which ruckman gets their hand on the ball first if it doesn’t go anywhere?

It’s value is only that it points to the potential of the man. More important is his 22 more hitouts to advantage than anyone else in the competition - without question, he has done his job. But the most damning stat in football right now, and one of the core reasons the Dockers are having the problems they are, is that despite Sandilands’ dominance, they are the worst team in the game at clearances.

FACT

Fremantle has won the hitouts in every game but has lost the clearances in every game.

THIS is an indictment on the Dockers’ clearance players and their coaches, and it simply has to be addressed before the year is out.

It is also a strong indicator that ruck efficiency is about a marriage of two equal halves, not the master-servant relationship that is usually portrayed.

Sandilands is the one man who could single-handedly return ruckwork to its former significance, but only if those around him - on and off the field - better utilise this resource.

BRAD OTTENS

OTTENS, back in the Geelong team tomorrow, was given enormous credit for his Grand Final ruck dominance, but it was perception, not reality.

He played extremely well, but it had little to do with his hitouts or traditional ruckwork.

FACT

Brad Ottens had 19 hitouts in the GF - but not one to advantage, according to the research that requires the tap to result in a possession and disposal by a teammate.

THERE were countless assessments of how Ottens and Steven King dominated the ruck over Brendon Lade and Dean Brogan, but that’s not what the numbers tell us.

What the Geelong pair did do was play well around the ground and at stoppages, nullifying a potential advantage of Port Adelaide and providing their clearance players with a neutral playing field.

And as far as ruckwork goes that’s all you really need or want—a competitive effort the gives you an even chance at ground level.

TROY SIMMONDS

THAT’S exactly what you get from the Tigers’ ruckman, who is flying again this year. He rarely wins a tap to advantage—just one in 10—but neither do his opponents.

He jumps early and hopes to neutralise bigger ruckmen, then works at getting the clearance himself.

Ben Hudson works along similar lines at the Bulldogs, and it’s worth noting that in terms of scores from clearances—a more effective measurement than simple clearances—the Tigers rank well above their standing on the ladder and the Bulldogs are No. 2 in the competition.

So, just where does ruckwork fit into the scheme of things, given that so much time, effort and money is put into gaining an advantage there.

In reality there is very little difference between ruckmen in their tapwork, and their influence at stoppages ranks a distance third behind clearance players and random influences, including the third man up.

And that’s not surprising, given the changes to the game.

SAM NEWMAN

NEWMAN was the first to teach ruckwork as a science and worked with Simon Madden to add the science of angles and positioning to Madden’s enormous talent to dominate the game.

But everyone now has the same information, and ruck coaches teach the same theory, so any advantage has been largely neutralised.

We are left too often with a stalemate in which ruckmen either link arms and wrestle to no conclusion at boundary throw-ins or, limited by the centre circle, jump early and often don’t even touch the ball in a meaningful way.

And, unfortunately, much good ruckwork goes unrewarded due to tight tags and scrimmages that lead to the excessive number of secondary bounces; in last week’s Fremantle- Carlton game nearly half of all ruck contests resulted in a secondary bounce.
Despite the myth, clearances are predominantly (in four out of five cases) about players other than the ruckmen, a scenario exacerbated because no one allows ruckmen to belt the ball into space any more, a centre clearance tactic that underpinned Brisbane’s strategy in their premiership era, and one that Fremantle and Aaron Sandilands should consider.

THE CRUNCH PUNCH

SANDILANDS is so dominant in hitouts he has become far too predictable, and adding the “crunch punch” to a predetermined space to his repertoire could help Freo’s clearance problem dramatically, and reassert the value of ruckwork.

Consider this little mindtwister - in the 30 minutes the forgotten Keppler Bradley was in the ruck last week against Carlton, Fremantle dominated clearances.

When the best tap ruckmen in the game was in control the Dockers were slaughtered.

The “block of flats” is so dominant it takes away the random element; too often he hits the ball to the same space.

It wasn’t a coincidence that Adam Bentick stood in the same spot at every Sandilands ruck contest last weekend.

The crunch punch to space is the best way to immediately increase the options the opposition has to consider.

But are the Dockers prepared to take a risk when no one else will?

So far this season there have been only 18 crunch punches to gain a hitout to advantage.

That’s two per week.

Ruckwork is dying because no one wants to take a risk. The Dockers are dying because they are slaves to fashion rather than boldly letting Sandilands become the rucking equivalent of “Twiggy”.
But what of ruckmen in general - are they worth having or was Grant Thomas right when he elected to play Jason Blake in the ruck at the expense of hitouts.

GAME OF THE YEAR

DESPITE what I’ve said so far, the most dominant game of any individual this year, Buddy Franklin included, was by Aaron Sandilands. Yes, a ruckmen.

His Round 6 game against Geelong was phenomenal. He was head and shoulders (literally and metaphorically) above anyone else on the ground.

But that wasn’t because of his hitout numbers, or even his ruckwork in general, but the complete Sandilands package.

He dominated hitouts, winning 48 with 11 to advantage (roughly one in four), but it was his 20 contested possessions and 13 clearances that took his game to the top echelon.

The story was similar in Ottens’ preliminary final last season. He won 24 hitouts with six to advantage, but he actually cleared six stoppages himself and won 15 contested possessions around the ground.

He was considered best on ground but his ruckwork played only a handy part, at best, in the total performance.

THE FUTURE

DEAN Cox provides the evidence and answers to the debate about a ruckman’s worth as he remains one of the game’s most dominant players.

Like most of the top ruckmen today, his ruckwork plays a minor role in clearances with a marginal dominance in hitouts to advantage.

He also has an impact in getting his own clearances, but it is his work as a hard-running, skilful tall midfielder that allows him to exert such an influence on the game.

He adds pace and carry to the West Coast midfield while other ruckmen slow their midfields down.

The influence of ruckwork has never been at a lower ebb, limited by the enormous work of coaches to neutralise stoppages and the centre circle.

The influence of the best ruckmen is still potent, but for very different reasons to the past.

There will still be magical moments when the memories of Nicholls to Gallagher, Farmer to Goggin and Madden to Watson are invoked, but sadly they are all too few.

 

[Moo]

A specialist ruck coach would deal with clearances and work closely with the midfield coach.

Whilst full time may not be needed - it would be a full on position.

 

[rotto]

Most or all NBA teams have a "big man coach." It would seem sensible to have a big man coach at an AFL. Have one coach teaching ruck work and key position play.

 

[theGav56]

Most or all NBA teams have a "big man coach." It would seem sensible to have a big man coach at an AFL. Have one coach teaching ruck work and key position play.

Just doesn't make sense. Would we want an ex-ruckman coaching our tall forwards? Or an ex-tall forward coaching our ruckman?

 

[Moo]

Just doesn't make sense. Would we want an ex-ruckman coaching our tall forwards? Or an ex-tall forward coaching our ruckman?

You may want a big man coach instructing a ruckman how to ruck and how to play forward.

For example JLo would qualify as a ruck/forward. We still need a forward coach but a ruck coach could show a Sandi/Warnock how to use that height up forward.

My only issue if it is JLo - is how much experience in instruction would he have?

I still think in regards to experience - there is a guy called John Gardiner...coaches the Perry Lake Hawks in the SBL ....in basketball terms he is a bloody genius - get him down for a couple of hours and I think our clearances would go through the roof.

I still think our midfield set up is wrong for such a dominant ruck. I won't bore you all again but lets just say it appears to be the same old set up as every club in the league ....difference is that we don't have the same old ruckman as every other club in the league.

Seriously Sandi is that dominant that we should be calling plays after each goal is scored.

 

[rotto]

The best players are not always the best coaches. Techiques are taught so is really does matter if the players is an ex ruck or ex kp. What matters if they know their stuff and how they communicate with their players.

My ex basketball coach and I taught talls players post techiques and rebuilding but I'm only 5'6. Brian Goorjian 6'2 was a shooter and his defense was quite poor but his teams are noted for their defense. Also, he has proven track result in developing young Aussie talls is second to none. The argument that a ex ruck cant teach kp's and an ex kp cant teach rucks is totally bs.

I would argue that having one development/skills tall man coach makes more sense. The talls coach could spend time with 12 or so players on how list.

 

[bomberstomake8]

If we don't have a ruck coach that is diabolical. What good are winning the hit outs when we lose the clearances???

Sandi averages 30 hits per game but only 4 clearances. A ruck coach surely would help with the clearances!?

i wouldnt be worrying about your ruck setup too much.. you probably should have a ruck coach, but your lack of clearences is not sandilands fault..
when oppositions come up against your team they pretty much only focus on sandilands and have the mind set that there ruckmen wont win the tap. personally i dont think a ruck coach would do much, what you need a better set plays which allow sandilands to hit it down the throat of a running player

 

[Moo]

i wouldnt be worrying about your ruck setup too much.. you probably should have a ruck coach, but your lack of clearences is not sandilands fault..
when oppositions come up against your team they pretty much only focus on sandilands and have the mind set that there ruckmen wont win the tap. personally i dont think a ruck coach would do much, what you need a better set plays which allow sandilands to hit it down the throat of a running player

A good ruck coach could work on placement, set plays and positioning of the ruck during play.

We just try and tap it to a player hitting the ball at speed.

Trouble is as my Bomber friend says - the other team is also doing the same and if not successful theya re just driving the Freo player into the ground.

Set plays rock when you are dominating and would make the back tap far, far more effective.

If it was me I would be screwing around not just with the set up in the middle, I would be stuffing around with the wings, half forward line and half back line too.

I'd run fake plays, thump forwards, weight the front half of the square, weight the side ..etc.

Imagine plonking Pav just forward of the centre line and then lining Palmer, Ibbo on the extreme side or rear of the square (by extreme it is always half the distance from line to circle).

If they man it up it leaves Pavlich one out in space ...a mild signal would let Pav know if it was going to him directly, right side over or left side over (plus like in basketabll you just spin and go - it is impossible to counter if Sandi is accurate to within a metre or two).

If they do not man it up you have a side or back tap to a man with a few metres on his direct opponent.

Worst case scenario Sandi misses however the ball is moving our way by a few metres and we have men inside the square to pressure. If it works we have a quick kick to a Campbell, Taz & Farmer inside the 50.

I know BBall and Footy are different but I have played both, coached both and have played Ruck (yeah only country) - however we ran set plays all the time in footy and what we were doing in the Ongerup League to be frank was far more inventive than anything I ahve seen form us.

I'd love to see thumps forward to a weighted half forward line too ....Tarrant is very quick, Jeffery is OK off the mark - throw in a Hinks next season - pull your midfield behind the ball for the back tap (but spread).

The tear in from half forward is fun to watch when the ball gets thumped forward.

...or we can just keep back tapping to 50-50 contests I guess.....why be different?

 

[Cheetah]

O.K. Moo, you've got the job!