Rumour File #6

[coryne]

Blasphemy? Butcher has reached godly status after 3 games?

I look at it this way.
We're currently the 4th. highest scoring side in the league (we will be after the weekend as Essendon don't have a game) yet we've been devoid of Henderson and Waite forward for most of the year.
Out of a possible 44 games combined, we would have had no more than 20 games combined from the two.

How are we still getting our goals?
Well it starts from the trash that Hank talks about, being our ruckmen, that feed to our quality mids that give us first possession and quick entries forward.
Never enough mids to keep rotations up and give relief to largely Judd and Murphy, for now.
The others still have some way to go and Mclean just hasn't done what he was hired to do.
That's where we need the assistance.

The other thing that hasn't really worked for us this year to date is Kreuzer, whose return you would have imagined to have been a lot better than it has been to date.
We had Wallsy calling Kreuzer a potential 80 goals a season forward and though I can't quite see that, but a 50 return from the big man would go a long way to us having quite an imposing forward set-up.

I won't go into talking about Mitchell because he hasn't played a game just yet, but if he had played three, then who knows.

Honestly I wasn't expecting too much from Kreuzer this year. He is after all coming back from a knee reco. Next year will be a better guage of where he is as, esp if he has a full pre-season !!!!!!!


Also why would Fev go to Freo to be FURTHER away from his family ??? He may fit the requirements for Freo, but they would be CRAZY to take him after the way his life fell apart when he was in Brisbane away from his family.

 

[zeeCFC]

I heard an interesing whisper about a semi-established player from "up north", declaring some interest in playing for Carlton next year.

Would he be a 'proud' blue?

 

[gbatman]

Hawthorn really showed how to beat us. Sacrifice their good midfield to neutralize our better than good midfield, and leave the game to be won elsewhere...

Got to disagree here. Our midfield is full of holes, it's not that good! We really over rate it because we have Judd and Murphy who are exceptionally good and carry it quite a bit. How often does it take one or both of these guys to dominate for us to win a game? Too often. After them it gets really thin. Robinson I rate as a centerman. The rest are just good wingers and flankers who tear games apart when the center (Judd, Murphy, Ellard, Robinson) is working. When it's not they are ineffective.

Hawthorn belted us in the center in the contested footy and at the clearances and really should have blown us away early and beaten us by a lot lot more.

If Murphy or Judd were to get injured we'd be in trouble because we don't have many quality centermen in our club. This is why when Curnow was going well we were really good. Ellard, Curnow and Mclean are not real quality. They are just filling the holes in our team. In the other top sides they wouldn't get a game. Ellard might get a game as a small forward who pinch hits on the ball or as a bit of a tagger. That's it. Our onball brigade looks way off par when you get down past Judd, Murphy and Robinson.


Look at collingwood. Their onball quality runs deep. Swan, Ball, Thomas, Pendlebury and Beams gets amongst it a bit too. Collingwood ar as good as they are because of the number of genuine centermen in their side that they can rotato through the center square and control games from there This is why they finish so well in final quarters. They are not just centermen but they can play up forward and provide run and carry when they game opens up and they can also defend. Swan, Ball and Pendlebury are their starters and Judd, Murphy and Robbo match them alright. It's when you look at who comes in to give those guys a spell where we lose out with Thomas and Beams compared to Curnow/Mclean and Ellard.


Hawthorn have Hodge, Sewell, Mitchell. I think it's Burgoyne and Birchell who go through there as well and make pretty good impacts on the game. This onball group runs a lot deeper than ours when you compare birchell and burgoyen to curnow and ellard.

West Coast have some real clearance kings in Kerr, Priddis, and the two Selwoods. They aren't real flashy but they have few weak links around the stoppages. It's hard to beat these players in the center and this is where they get their control from.

Geelong are no suprises. They have Selwood and Bartel with Chapman, Ling and Kelly to go through there as well and more if they wanted to. Geelong not Ablett have gone at first looked to have weakened here but it turns out with the quality of players they had they had a lot more guys who could go through here and make an impact.

We are forced to play Scotland, Carrazzo, Simpson and Gibbs on the ball because we haven't got the depth on the field in this area. Playing these guys on the ball is the equivalent to playing thornton at full back, and yes we have had to do that too in recent years. Yes they are midfielders but not that sort of midfielder. If we are to beat those top teams it's not enough to break even against them on the ball. We have to beat them here.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

I heard an interesing whisper about a semi-established player from "up north", declaring some interest in playing for Carlton next year.

I'll bite... Definately interested in you sharing

 

[Silvagnis]

I heard an interesing whisper about a semi-established player from "up north", declaring some interest in playing for Carlton next year.

I'd rather go for the golfer, but by the same token, I'd welcome a new "blue boy".

 

[NAUGHT5]

Are you going to give us something C4 or just tease us a little..?

Or is it Albert Proud?

 

[Silvagnis]

We are forced to play Scotland, Carrazzo, Simpson and Gibbs on the ball because we haven't got the depth on the field in this area. Playing these guys on the ball is the equivalent to playing thornton at full back, and yes we have had to do that too in recent years. Yes they are midfielders but not that sort of midfielder. If we are to beat those top teams it's not enough to break even against them on the ball. We have to beat them here.

WTF.

What's wrong with playing the likes of Gibbs and Simpson on the ball?

A shame they're not as good as Thomas, Beams and Wellingham who run through Collingwood's midfield.

Lucas will be in the mix too.

We lack a few grunts to release Judd and Murphy, but our outside players are up there with the best in the AFL.

 

[Pafloyul]

I think we need a 'gun' forward precisely because of the fact that our midfield lacks depth. We will never be as disciplined, mentally strong or precise as the top two or three sides; we just don't have the depth or 'mongrel' factor. However, we can 'out gun' them if we add that one ingredient of a strong marking forward or two.

 

[Stig O'Hara]

WTF.

What's wrong with playing the likes of Gibbs and Simpson on the ball?

A shame they're not as good as Thomas, Beams and Wellingham who run through Collingwood's midfield.

Lucas will be in the mix too.

We lack a few grunts to release Judd and Murphy, but our outside players are up there with the best in the AFL.

Stop Making Sense TG.

 

[KennyHunter9]

Got to disagree here. Our midfield is full of holes, it's not that good! We really over rate it because we have Judd and Murphy who are exceptionally good and carry it quite a bit. How often does it take one or both of these guys to dominate for us to win a game? Too often. After them it gets really thin. Robinson I rate as a centerman. The rest are just good wingers and flankers who tear games apart when the center (Judd, Murphy, Ellard, Robinson) is working. When it's not they are ineffective.

Hawthorn belted us in the center in the contested footy and at the clearances and really should have blown us away early and beaten us by a lot lot more.

If Murphy or Judd were to get injured we'd be in trouble because we don't have many quality centermen in our club. This is why when Curnow was going well we were really good. Ellard, Curnow and Mclean are not real quality. They are just filling the holes in our team. In the other top sides they wouldn't get a game. Ellard might get a game as a small forward who pinch hits on the ball or as a bit of a tagger. That's it. Our onball brigade looks way off par when you get down past Judd, Murphy and Robinson.


Look at collingwood. Their onball quality runs deep. Swan, Ball, Thomas, Pendlebury and Beams gets amongst it a bit too. Collingwood ar as good as they are because of the number of genuine centermen in their side that they can rotato through the center square and control games from there This is why they finish so well in final quarters. They are not just centermen but they can play up forward and provide run and carry when they game opens up and they can also defend. Swan, Ball and Pendlebury are their starters and Judd, Murphy and Robbo match them alright. It's when you look at who comes in to give those guys a spell where we lose out with Thomas and Beams compared to Curnow/Mclean and Ellard.


Hawthorn have Hodge, Sewell, Mitchell. I think it's Burgoyne and Birchell who go through there as well and make pretty good impacts on the game. This onball group runs a lot deeper than ours when you compare birchell and burgoyen to curnow and ellard.

West Coast have some real clearance kings in Kerr, Priddis, and the two Selwoods. They aren't real flashy but they have few weak links around the stoppages. It's hard to beat these players in the center and this is where they get their control from.

Geelong are no suprises. They have Selwood and Bartel with Chapman, Ling and Kelly to go through there as well and more if they wanted to. Geelong not Ablett have gone at first looked to have weakened here but it turns out with the quality of players they had they had a lot more guys who could go through here and make an impact.

We are forced to play Scotland, Carrazzo, Simpson and Gibbs on the ball because we haven't got the depth on the field in this area. Playing these guys on the ball is the equivalent to playing thornton at full back, and yes we have had to do that too in recent years. Yes they are midfielders but not that sort of midfielder. If we are to beat those top teams it's not enough to break even against them on the ball. We have to beat them here.

Bizarre.

I think what you mean is that our midfield would be stronger with a Curnow / Maclean firing. No dispute. They would go up against Ball / Mitchell / Watson in the centre.

But to suggest that Scotland, Gibbs and Simpson cannot be classed as midfielders is wrong, as evidenced by your decision to classify Swan, Thomas and Beams as midfielders, when they play the same role as Scotland, Gibbs and Simpson.

Burgoyne is an outside mid these days. Birchall and Hodge play defence more than midfield. If Robbo had inserted himself more prominently in the first half, and Judd was 25% better we would have won. Simple as that. We didn't but I'm certainly not worried about playing the Hawks next time around.

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

Are you going to give us something C4 or just tease us a little..?

Or is it Albert Proud?

ok ok ... it's Josh Drummond lol

I wish it was Proud.

 

[Big Red is back]

WTF.

What's wrong with playing the likes of Gibbs and Simpson on the ball?

A shame they're not as good as Thomas, Beams and Wellingham who run through Collingwood's midfield.

Lucas will be in the mix too.

We lack a few grunts to release Judd and Murphy, but our outside players are up there with the best in the AFL.

First decent post you have ever made.

Our midfield is elite.

Judd & Murphy top 10 AFL

Gibbs, Scotland and Simpson all top 30 in terms of AFL mids

Robo - hardest man in football

Carazzo - one of the best run with players going around

That is seven high quality players.

 

[NAUGHT5]

I'd like Drummond

Very injury prone though so hopefully he'd come at a relatively cut price.

 

[HARKER]

I think we need a 'gun' forward precisely because of the fact that our midfield lacks depth. We will never be as disciplined, mentally strong or precise as the top two or three sides we just don't have the depth or 'mongrel' factor. However, we can 'out gun' them if we add that one ingredient of a strong marking forward or two.[/quote]

Just for the sake of the argument, let's play that one out.
I guess by default to what you're saying, is that Henderson, Kreuzer, Mitchell etc. can't fill these posts.

So, by some quirk of fate we strike upon these 2 imposing gorilla's that on paper should take care of what we percieve as our forward woes.
What next?

Henderson stays a back man? I really think we're down-playing him because for now everything else looks bigger, better and stronger and I just don't think that is really the case.
Henderson should still be our CHF for years to come.
Has Waite got room in this forward line now and if so where?
Surely, Kreuzer cannot also fit in, but we'd never get rid of him so Warnock and Hampson must be ousted, but now we have only one ruck man.
What to do?
Of course! One of these gorilla's will be our second ruck? Is it just that easy?

Not saying you're completely wrong, but for every move there must be a counter move.
We do simplify things sometimes by just saying we need this or that without playing it out to the end.

Still sooner have another quality grunt mid as TG has suggested.

 

[Pafloyul]

First decent post you have ever made.

Our midfield is elite.

Judd & Murphy top 10 AFL

Gibbs, Scotland and Simpson all top 30 in terms of AFL mids

Robo - hardest man in football

Carazzo - one of the best run with players going around

That is seven high quality players.

Yes but we don't play like that. The modern game is is made up of 'talls' and 'midfielders' and perhaps a specialist smaller forward or two. The days of specialist flankers and back pockets is disappearing fast. For whatever reason we rely on too few players and we very rarely get a lot out of others when our two or free best have poorer games. There's not that player every odd week that steps up a level.

 

[Silvagnis]

Josh Drummond?

DO NOT WANT.

Zac Tuohy thanks.

I think we need a 'gun' forward precisely because of the fact that our midfield lacks depth. We will never be as disciplined, mentally strong or precise as the top two or three sides; we just don't have the depth or 'mongrel' factor. However, we can 'out gun' them if we add that one ingredient of a strong marking forward or two.

Our biggest draft and trade sceptic now wants us to go all out to get a gun forward that papers over the cracks.

Wonders never cease.

Why can't we be as disciplined, mentally strong and precise as the top two or three?

Rome wasn't built in a day.

Collingwood were a relatively inaccurate side in 2009, but found that balance and improved to become the best team in the AFL. Travis Cloke's 2010 form is the best example of this improvement.

There's still some upside to be reached with the 2009 and 2010 drafts yet to really step up as senior players. Kerr and Buckley could improve the quality of our bottom six by replacing Ellard and Joseph. Collins could also add to this group by being the high half forward/mid we lack with Houlihan gone.

 

[HARKER]

ok ok ... it's Josh Drummond lol

I wish it was Proud.

We'd be after a mid-sized 29y.o. injury prone back man?
That's a little surprising on face value..

Hasn't Proud retired anyway?

 

[Pafloyul]

Josh Drummond?

DO NOT WANT.

Zac Tuohy thanks.

Our biggest draft and trade sceptic now wants us to go all out to get a gun forward that papers over the cracks.

Wonders never cease.

Why can't we be as disciplined, mentally strong and precise as the top two or three?

Rome wasn't built in a day.

Collingwood were a relatively inaccurate side in 2009, but found that balance and improved to become the best team in the AFL. Travis Cloke's 2010 form is the best example of this improvement.

There's still some upside to be reached with the 2009 and 2010 drafts yet to really step up as senior players. Kerr and Buckley could improve the quality of our bottom six by replacing Ellard and Joseph. Collins could also add to this group by being the high half forward/mid we lack with Houlihan gone.

How many 'days' do we have? That's the rub. I'm happy to go that way if everybody else is but it seems our 'window' is now open and Judd won't last forever. You misunderstand, It's basically John Butcher or keep the draft picks for me. I want a genuine spearhead that still has his best days ahead, whether it's through the draft or what. It's kind of like going full circle.

 

[NAUGHT5]

How many 'days' do we have? That's the rub. I'm happy to go that way if everybody else is but it seems our 'window' is now open and Judd won't last forever. You misunderstand, It's basically John Butcher or keep the draft picks for me. I want a genuine spearhead that still has his best days ahead, whether it's through the draft or what. it's kind of like going full circle.

We have the days. Everyone is obsessed with winning under Judd, and I think we can. But it isn't the be all and end all. It's not like taking Judd out of our current team. If all goes to plan our list will have developed massively and Gibbs, Robinson, Lucas and Yarran will team up with Murphy to form what will be a formidable midfield in it's own right.

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

We'd be after a mid-sized 29y.o. injury prone back man?
That's a little surprising on face value..

Hasn't Proud retired anyway?

The tables have turned.

We were after him pretty hard a few years back - and he rejected us being a Queenslander, and wanting to stay at the Lions.

Now that he wants us - we should return the favour!

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

I think we need a 'gun' forward precisely because of the fact that our midfield lacks depth. We will never be as disciplined, mentally strong or precise as the top two or three sides; we just don't have the depth or 'mongrel' factor. However, we can 'out gun' them if we add that one ingredient of a strong marking forward or two.

Never?

 

[zeeCFC]

No to Drummond, was a great player when in his prime but we now have plenty of younger flankers who are capable of doing what he does.

 

[Silvagnis]

How many 'days' do we have? That's the rub. I'm happy to go that way if everybody else is but it seems our 'window' is now open and Judd won't last forever. You misunderstand, It's basically John Butcher or keep the draft picks for me. I want a genuine spearhead that still has his best days ahead, whether it's through the draft or what. It's kind of like going full circle.

“If you can keep your wits about you while all others are losing theirs, and blaming you. . . . The world will be yours and everything in it, what's more, you'll be a man, my son.”

On that note, Paf suddenly wants to go balls deep and pay through the nose for Butcher after having a fit over the Warnock and Judd trades.

Amazing.

 

[TOPBLUE_25]

How many 'days' do we have? That's the rub. I'm happy to go that way if everybody else is but it seems our 'window' is now open and Judd won't last forever. You misunderstand, It's basically John Butcher or keep the draft picks for me. I want a genuine spearhead that still has his best days ahead, whether it's through the draft or what. It's kind of like going full circle.

Dobosz @ FF
Mitchell @ CHF

 

[gbatman]

WTF.

What's wrong with playing the likes of Gibbs and Simpson on the ball?

A shame they're not as good as Thomas, Beams and Wellingham who run through Collingwood's midfield.

Lucas will be in the mix too.

We lack a few grunts to release Judd and Murphy, but our outside players are up there with the best in the AFL.

Because they are peripheral players and not onballers. Their natural game is to play wide, usually on a wing or back flank and occasionally up forward and create. Yeah you'll get plenty out of them on the ball against the lesser sides but they are not on ballers. For me it's really obvious.

Lucas I think is getting a season in the VFL as an onballer to work on areas of his game to make him into this sort of classy multi talented rover that we would like. I think he'll feature heavily next year. I think there will be a number of changes from the word go next year with who is in and who is out of the team.

There is a reason the club went out of its way to get Mclean. There is a big reason we have pushed Ellard along and why we picked up Curnow. I know it. The club knows it. It's really bloody obvious our midfield lacks depth of class when it comes to onballers.

Yeah our outside players are right up there with the best. Our midfield is only as good as it is because we have the best player in the league and one of the best of all time playing center and one of the best roving in Murphy and Judd. Robinson wins plenty of the hard stuff and is a genuine centerman because like Murphy and Judd he relishes the physical stuff and has a big tank now. This is why many people, especially our supporters and the media fall into the misconception that we have a great midfield.

Our outside players are irrelevant when we're getting done in the center like against Hawthorn earlier.

It's a good midfield. It's not a great midfield. Our midfield is not beating the top four teams yet.