"Sack Goodwin!"

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I think the two biggest issues that we have is fitness and lack of depth in the midfield.

Yet for the last 3 or 4 years we've traded for mostly defenders and we've burnt a heap of low picks doing so
 
Cannon82 said:
I agree we're not going to sack anyone this year, but we've struggled to play consistent football under Goodwin for three years. Personally I think we play a dumb brand of football that seems to be his preferred game plan as much as its also driven by limitations of some players. At least he finally started changing things up yesterday, but he didn't achieve much swinging the magnets around from an overall performance point of view. This year is now going to be a write off but once we start getting some cattle back on the park, results need to improve. If we're a bottom four side come the end of the season, everyone's positions should be scrutinized. People can point at Bomber Thompson, Buckley and Hardwick, but you can also point at Voss, Neeld, Terry Wallace, etc... no one would get sacked if it was just a matter of giving them enough time to turn things around. If a good candidate somehow becomes available this off-season and we finish bottom 4, you'd hope the club would look at them.
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It’s frustrating to think we finished top 4 last year to have the turnaround we have had this year, but then maybe last year was an aberration to a degree? We beat West Coast and GWS and then Geelong and Hawthorn before getting brutalised by West Coast. Were we ever that good or did we just get worked out in the PF last year.

That PF was everything we couldn’t keep up with, it was fast controlled ball movement that punished the turnovers and mitigated our contested game. Gawn was tagged out and it seemed to be the blueprint for how to beat us; match us at the contest and then we’ve got nothing on the rebound. It’s pretty basic but it’s absolutely been effective this year against us.

Good coaches will respond and anticipate that happening. Goodwin just needs to identify these weaknesses and put forward a plan B very quickly. I don’t know much about our 2018 draftees but I’d hope they aren’t all inside types, I know Sparrow is a bit however.

Some of our so called stars really have questionable disposal. I am prepared to concede we won’t hit our peak as a group until 2021, but I’d be extremely concerned and wanting change if we were bottom 2 by the end of this year and started off on the same path in 2020.
 
Topkent said:
Then we would be Luke Beveridge and the dogs. One trick ponys and garbage since
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Exactly. I don’t care what anyone says about the WB. They played a month of elite footy in 2016 and peaked when it mattered, but they are not a GOOD side. They’ll not play finals this year and that’s 3 years post winning the 2016 flag. I am pretty sure Adelaide went 3 years post 1998 flag without playing finals and Blight was gone after 1999 having retired.

All we’ve done since Goodwin took over was blow chances in 2017, have a good finish to 2018, and regress in 2019. We haven’t made a GF, we made a PF and got totally butchered and hung up on hooks. After our win against the WB last year we lost 3 in a row to Collingwood, Port and St Kilda. We fluffed games at key moments as well.

After making a PF last year you’d not expect a team like ours to second last after 6 weeks and playing a brand of football that looks like no effort has gone into changing it. Who remembers that Hawthorn game last year we lost by about 11 goals? We were up at quarter time and cruising and Clarkson made some key changes to stymie us and low and behold, we capitulated and couldn’t adjust.

Goodwin just worries me, his lack of responsiveness worries me.
 

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demondavey said:
Finals are the be all and end all, particularly for a club that has played twice since 2006.
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We are all aware of the s**t history of this club, however to blame Goodwin for anything prior to 2017 is a stretch. His responsibility has been 17, 18 & 19. My comment about finals was that I couldn’t give a toss about merely making up the numbers, I’d rather us be contending. That said, s**t can happen beyond a coach’s control. 10-12 sides have finished 8th before and 12-10 have missed out. I’d rather miss finals with palpable improvements structurally than saddle up, ride the dragon and finish in the 8 thanks to belting s**t sides with an unchanged game plan.

TLDR: saying we need to finish in the 8 for him to keep his job is a limited perspective. It’s not impossible for him to improve as a coach and miss finals. Nor is it for him to still be a s**t coach and make finals. Finals are merely the means to an end.

demondavey said:
Last year we had a strong period of football for about a month early on, then tapered off, then managed to put a month together and make a PF final, but that form and that effort is light years away from where we are now.
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Agreed. We were flat trackers and a distant fourth. Despite the media nuffies and their foolish predictions, I felt we needed to improve a hell of a lot this year to contend. It’s obvious we haven’t and have gone backwards in a lot of areas.


demondavey said:
We are a genuine bottom 4 outfit alongside Sydney, North and Carlton. We are an awful team with no structure and no plan B. We’ve loaded up on this game plan but it’s been worked out so easily that we need something else very quickly. 2019 is done. Forget finals. If we don’t have anything new by 2020 then Goodwin isn’t up to it.
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I don’t disagree with any of that. I just dispute the idea that making finals is the only measure by which we can judge whether Goodwin is up to it or not.
 
We'll finish fourteenth or thirteenth. Will scrape together 8-9 wins.
 
Gysberts2Bate said:
We'll finish fourteenth or thirteenth. Will scrape together 8-9 wins.
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Second half of the year we'll find some form with players returning. We'll basically be the Essendon of last year. Maybe sack McCartney along the way.
 
Johnny Karate said:
We are all aware of the s**t history of this club, however to blame Goodwin for anything prior to 2017 is a stretch. His responsibility has been 17, 18 & 19. My comment about finals was that I couldn’t give a toss about merely making up the numbers, I’d rather us be contending. That said, s**t can happen beyond a coach’s control. 10-12 sides have finished 8th before and 12-10 have missed out. I’d rather miss finals with palpable improvements structurally than saddle up, ride the dragon and finish in the 8 thanks to belting s**t sides with an unchanged game plan.

TLDR: saying we need to finish in the 8 for him to keep his job is a limited perspective. It’s not impossible for him to improve as a coach and miss finals. Nor is it for him to still be a s**t coach and make finals. Finals are merely the means to an end.


Agreed. We were flat trackers and a distant fourth. Despite the media nuffies and their foolish predictions, I felt we needed to improve a hell of a lot this year to contend. It’s obvious we haven’t and have gone backwards in a lot of areas.



I don’t disagree with any of that. I just dispute the idea that making finals is the only measure by which we can judge whether Goodwin is up to it or not.
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I am not blaming Goodwin prior to his tenure beginning, but I am saying that in his third year I’d be concerned about regression of this nature in our game plan and watching teams like St Kilda and Fremantle street past us, and being on par with Carlton in terms of win loss. The way Carlton played against the WB was probably something we should look at to be honest.

How exactly do you think a team like ours should be judged though? I mean in 2017 we faded and dropped games we shouldn’t have, last year we did as well which probably cost us top 4, and this year we are seriously underwhelming. I mean the excuses are done mate, the games we’ve dropped since 2017 to now are really wearing thin in terms of being excused or accepted. The same old stuff occurs. We don’t deliver.

We are not a Richmond having a down year in 2016 after 3 years of finals. The result on Wednesday was again, predictable. We never ever looked like getting near Richmond, it was just a flood against the gates until they opened up for Richmond and a 7 goal differential was inevitable.

Mate we are ******* hopeless.
 
Johnny Karate said:
We are all aware of the s**t history of this club, however to blame Goodwin for anything prior to 2017 is a stretch. His responsibility has been 17, 18 & 19. My comment about finals was that I couldn’t give a toss about merely making up the numbers, I’d rather us be contending. That said, s**t can happen beyond a coach’s control. 10-12 sides have finished 8th before and 12-10 have missed out. I’d rather miss finals with palpable improvements structurally than saddle up, ride the dragon and finish in the 8 thanks to belting s**t sides with an unchanged game plan.

TLDR: saying we need to finish in the 8 for him to keep his job is a limited perspective. It’s not impossible for him to improve as a coach and miss finals. Nor is it for him to still be a s**t coach and make finals. Finals are merely the means to an end.


Agreed. We were flat trackers and a distant fourth. Despite the media nuffies and their foolish predictions, I felt we needed to improve a hell of a lot this year to contend. It’s obvious we haven’t and have gone backwards in a lot of areas.



I don’t disagree with any of that. I just dispute the idea that making finals is the only measure by which we can judge whether Goodwin is up to it or not.
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If we aren’t winning enough games to make finals under Goodwin how long do you think he will last and the supporters and members will tolerate it?
 
Topkent said:
All he did was take Paul Roos 2014 game plan an do it in 2019. Its a completely unsustainable brand.

Legspeed, meh.
Lockhart had 8 disposals and 3 tackles
Hunt had 7 disposals and 1 tackle
Garlett had 12 disposals 3 tackles


We literally brought in a bunch of quick guys then played a slow style of footy.
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Agree with every point you’ve made.

I’m still happy that he did it.

Without using hindsight, what would you have preferred, exactly?
 
Topkent said:
All he did was take Paul Roos 2014 game plan an do it in 2019. Its a completely unsustainable brand.

Legspeed, meh.
Lockhart had 8 disposals and 3 tackles
Hunt had 7 disposals and 1 tackle
Garlett had 12 disposals 3 tackles


We literally brought in a bunch of quick guys then played a slow style of footy.
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Hunt had his worst game for the year too I thought.
 
demondavey said:
I am not blaming Goodwin prior to his tenure beginning, but I am saying that in his third year I’d be concerned about regression of this nature in our game plan and watching teams like St Kilda and Fremantle street past us, and being on par with Carlton in terms of win loss. The way Carlton played against the WB was probably something we should look at to be honest.

How exactly do you think a team like ours should be judged though? I mean in 2017 we faded and dropped games we shouldn’t have, last year we did as well which probably cost us top 4, and this year we are seriously underwhelming. I mean the excuses are done mate, the games we’ve dropped since 2017 to now are really wearing thin in terms of being excused or accepted. The same old stuff occurs. We don’t deliver.

We are not a Richmond having a down year in 2016 after 3 years of finals. The result on Wednesday was again, predictable. We never ever looked like getting near Richmond, it was just a flood against the gates until they opened up for Richmond and a 7 goal differential was inevitable.

Mate we are ******* hopeless.
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I’m not sure we disagree on much. We are currently massively underachieving under Goodwin’s coaching. He needs to improve in several areas.

Our forward efficiency is s**t, our defence leaks and we are currently bog average in contested ball and clearances (our one wood). We don’t tackle enough and look awful on our home ground. There is too much talent in the playing group (pre season surgeries notwithstanding) to accept this awful start. That is all on Goodwin.

Every club obviously reaches a breaking point in terms of under performance but making finals shouldn’t be the only measure of success. Plenty of s**t sides make finals. Some years, good sides miss out.

If Goodwin coaches a side in 2020 that gives four quarters of effort, doesn’t look ******* narcoleptic and is well structured and disciplined, I will accept his improvement as a coach. If he doesn’t he can get ****ed.
 
Johnny Karate said:
I’m not sure we disagree on much. We are currently massively underachieving under Goodwin’s coaching. He needs to improve in several areas.

Our forward efficiency is s**t, our defence leaks and we are currently bog average in contested ball and clearances (our one wood). We don’t tackle enough and look awful on our home ground. There is too much talent in the playing group (pre season surgeries notwithstanding) to accept this awful start. That is all on Goodwin.

Every club obviously reaches a breaking point in terms of under performance but making finals shouldn’t be the only measure of success. Plenty of s**t sides make finals. Some years, good sides miss out.

If Goodwin coaches a side in 2020 that gives four quarters of effort, doesn’t look ******* narcoleptic and is well structured and disciplined, I will accept his improvement as a coach. If he doesn’t he can get ******.
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I know what you’re saying, i am just impatient to play finals and make an impact. And things have to improve, as in now, against Hawthorn. I’ll accept a loss, but not by 7 goals.
 

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demondavey said:
North Melbourne only lost by 16 points last night, I mean are we sure things to beat them and Carlton? Incredibly concerned about how many games we will win given the way we are playing at the moment.
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Us winning any more games at all on current form is pretty much contingent on the following:
  1. A fast starting team like Gold Coast totally unravelling
  2. Someone resting most of their side against us
We are diabolically bad. We have no connection between the defence, midfield, or forward line. Most opposition midfielders read Gawn's ruckwork better than ours do. We are top heavy up forward, and bottom heavy down back. Our midfield is stacked with inside bulls who have stopped running both ways. The only way to avoid a bottom four finish is to change the game plan and/or rediscover whatever the hell it was that made this same group of guys, give or take a few, a scoring force.
 
Tulip said:
Us winning any more games at all on current form is pretty much contingent on the following:
  1. A fast starting team like Gold Coast totally unravelling
  2. Someone resting most of their side against us
We are diabolically bad. We have no connection between the defence, midfield, or forward line. Most opposition midfielders read Gawn's ruckwork better than ours do. We are top heavy up forward, and bottom heavy down back. Our midfield is stacked with inside bulls who have stopped running both ways. The only way to avoid a bottom four finish is to change the game plan and/or rediscover whatever the hell it was that made this same group of guys, give or take a few, a scoring force.
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I agree. This is the worst I’ve seen since early Roos days. The lack of run is the thing really concerning me. The two way efforts aren’t there. It’s lazy and negligent. I think these guys aren’t running because they just can’t.
 
demondavey said:
Scape together 8-9 wins? Against who exactly. We might struggle to beat North right now.
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Yes you're right. I've revised my estimate to a zero win season.
 
Carlton would flog us at the moment, Cripps will destroy us inside, Weitering and Jones are playing well in defence and McKay is killing it up forward.

Until we realise that just winning contested footy and the I50 count isn't enough to be the best in the competition we will continue to be bottom of the ladder
 
You guys are such downers. Don't you realise all journeys have set backs? This external talk about about bottom four, poor defensive structures, lack of fitness, out of form players, no plan b - it's all fugazi. We will be back to playing our brand that we know and trust soon enough. The journey is just beginning!
 
Daemon said:
You guys are such downers. Don't you realise all journeys have set backs? This external talk about about bottom four, poor defensive structures, lack of fitness, out of form players, no plan b - it's all fugazi. We will be back to playing our brand that we know and trust soon enough. The journey is just beginning!
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Todd Goldstein said the same thing pre-game on Friday. We need to go 'back" to playing the North Melbourne brand. The only problem with his and your statements is that 'back' is not the way forward, it's living in the past. Goodwin needs to adapt and evolve his coaching and recruitment strategies this year and next and not hope we'll just click into gear playing last years style and it will suddenly hold up - Because it didn't against the best 3 teams last year when we got spanked and it's not working now.
 
johndemonic said:
Todd Goldstein said the same thing pre-game on Friday. We need to go 'back" to playing the North Melbourne brand. The only problem with his and your statements is that 'back' is not the way forward, it's living in the past. Goodwin needs to adapt and evolve his coaching and recruitment strategies this year and next and not hope we'll just click into gear playing last years style and it will suddenly hold up - Because it didn't against the best 3 teams last year when we got spanked and it's not working now.
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Exactly. 'Our Brand' or 'Our Style' is out of date now. Problem is, even with a full list to choose from, I'm not convinced we have the list required to succeed in this new format. We desperately need to land a Whitfield, Coniglio or Kelly from GWS, and try bringing in some runners who can use the ball ok. We can quickly turn it around in one off season, but everything has to go right. I'm guessing we need two off seasons to un**** this mess.
 
The thing about our brand is that it’s focused solely on contested ball winning ability and a manic ferocity at the contest. This was pioneered (originally that is) by the WB and then followed by Richmond. Everyone has caught on to that. Anyone noticed how certain ‘brands’ tend to be certain ‘fads’? Look at the longevity of Hawthorn & Geelong. They play a much more free flowing game, where weight of domination doesn’t go into one component - contested ball winning and tackling. It’s an entire entity working together.

Even the games we lost last year were precursors for bigger issues this year, and the top 4 finish simply highlighted our weakness when we embarrassed ourselves against West Coast. What pisses me off as a supporter is the fact that due to our capitulation last year in the PF, we seemed to take it that our brand would hold up, but opposition works you out pretty quick and our lack of forward thinking has cost us 2019.

I’d have accepted a 7 or 8 finish this year, but we are really looking like a bottom 4 lock right now. It’s not having certain players back either, it’s having a type of effort required for a top 8 side. I refuse to believe St Kilda, Fremantle, Brisbane are better than us, but they’re working harder and playing to their strengths. If you watch our midfield they’re very lazy. Goodwin really has to put it to these guys to play like an AFL side as opppsed to riding coat tails of 2018.
 
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