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Juddernaut08

Juddernaut08

Brownlow Medallist
Veteran 10k Posts
Nov 8, 2007
11,810
16,830
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Too often in footy a head coach gets one shot and if they fail, they're never given an opportunity again.

Ratten started as a decent coach but with a bit to learn and still lacking gravitas. He's done further apprenticeship time and has come back at the Saints and turned a poor list into a top 4 contender despite having almost zero talent.

Voss is still early days but has had more success at the Blues than theyve had in a decade. His first stint at Brisbane was immature and overconfident. He's now wiser and more humble, but still has that burning competitive fire and confidence that has now been balanced with maturity and knowledge of the game.

It makes sense that coaches would improve after they learn from their mistakes. But AFL has very few of these cases.

Is the wheel turning? Which other failed coaches deserve a second shot?
 
I mean, I get that Voss is doing well but there is no way he does what he is doing without the corpses of Bolton and Teague to walk over. Like it or not they had a hand in the Blues' rebuilding. Voss is a needed breath of fresh air but how many coaches wouldn't have Carlton primed at this point?
 

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Dumb claim to say Saints have 0 talent.

For a long time they've been shat on from media and fans for not fulfilling their talent.

They have a pretty damn good list on paper. Previously it's just been it's not gelled for any length of time, some weeks Hill would go well but Billings would do * all, Higgins would be playing alright but Gresham was injured, Marshall and Ryder a killer combo but rarely together etc. But the talent was there.

They've got no more average role players (Webster, McKenzie, Long etc) than Carlton, and with King, Steele, Sinclair, Marshall, occasionally Ryder, and an excellent list of 2nd tier senior players that push up to A grade rotating each week, they've got the star power to match.
Carlton still play Young, O'Brien, Owies, Cottrell and a combo of 1 or 2 of Carroll/Motlop/Kemp/Setterfield types..

So fairly arrogant/trollish statement to claim that St Kilda have an average list.

Aside from that, I think Don Pyke would be a solid coach. There were clearly huge issues off field in the wake of 2017, regardless of what Crows fans say there was clear fractures between certain players and club. Combine that with poor timing of best youth wanting to leave (Cameron, Lever), and some serious injuries (B.Crouch didn't play in 2018, Smith 2 games, Sloane, Walker, McGovern and Hartigan all missed 1/3 to 1/2 the season), it's easy to see why it fell apart for the Crows.

I think Pyke will win see a grand final or so as an assistant coach again, or he will be senior coach at a St Kilda/Carlton type top 4 team again. Flags depend on more than just the coach, so hard to say that but he's very good.
 
HTPunter said:
Dumb claim to say Saints have 0 talent.

For a long time they've been shat on from media and fans for not fulfilling their talent.

They have a pretty damn good list on paper. Previously it's just been it's not gelled for any length of time, some weeks Hill would go well but Billings would do duck all, Higgins would be playing alright but Gresham was injured, Marshall and Ryder a killer combo but rarely together etc. But the talent was there.

They've got no more average role players (Webster, McKenzie, Long etc) than Carlton, and with King, Steele, Sinclair, Marshall, occasionally Ryder, and an excellent list of 2nd tier senior players that push up to A grade rotating each week, they've got the star power to match.
Carlton still play Young, O'Brien, Owies, Cottrell and a combo of 1 or 2 of Carroll/Motlop/Kemp/Setterfield types..

So fairly arrogant/trollish statement to claim that St Kilda have an average list.

Aside from that, I think Don Pyke would be a solid coach. There were clearly huge issues off field in the wake of 2017, regardless of what Crows fans say there was clear fractures between certain players and club. Combine that with poor timing of best youth wanting to leave (Cameron, Lever), and some serious injuries (B.Crouch didn't play in 2018, Smith 2 games, Sloane, Walker, McGovern and Hartigan all missed 1/3 to 1/2 the season), it's easy to see why it fell apart for the Crows.

I think Pyke will win see a grand final or so as an assistant coach again, or he will be senior coach at a St Kilda/Carlton type top 4 team again. Flags depend on more than just the coach, so hard to say that but he's very good.
Click to expand...

I was going to say Pyke but I wouldn't deem him a failed coach.
 
Juddernaut08 said:
Is the wheel turning? Which other failed coaches deserve a second shot?
Click to expand...
6865e82a-3abb-40ca-b4b8-51b3855e4b2c-gif.537804


/thread

What prize do I win?
 
Ken Hinkley enters this conversation.

Port supporters feel he has overstayed his welcome and likely they will part company at end of year.

If GC cant get Clarkson then Hinkley is the guy they would want next. No point going for the assistant coach who is highly rated. Dew was all those things and then some.

Would North Melbourne prefer Hinkley to Noble.

Might be questions as to whether he can take a team all the way but both those clubs would like a piece of what he has done with Port.
 
Ratten getting boned by Carlton was more a reflection on Carlton than Ratten. He took a 3 win team from 2006 to finals 3 years in a row 2009-2011. Getting Chris Judd from 2008 onward (and Murphy, Gibbs, Kruezer as B2B2B #1 picks) helped but getting that group to 14 wins was good coaching. They fell back to 11-11 in 2012 and the powers that be thought Malthouse would lead that group to glory when everyone else thought that group just wasn't that good.

In Ratten's time as coach they traded out Josh Kennedy as part of the Judd trade, prioritised Robert Warnock over Sam Jacobs, had to get rid of Fev, traded a first round pick for Brock McLean etc. The 3 years they played finals Waite played in one of them. Kruezer played in one of them. Fev played in the first one then was traded. Kennedy was long gone. In a parallel universe where Kruezer and Waite aren't made of paper, or Fev pulls his head in, or they give up pick 1 instead of Kennedy the script could've been different. Not convinced sufficiently different to beat Geelong/St Kilda/Collingwood of the day but it's not like Ratten was coaching a team of superstars.
 

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What about Brenton Sanderson?

17, 10, 11 wins and out is a strange coaching career. Unlucky not to roll Hawthorn in the 2012 prelim and make a GF in his first season.
 
Both Voss and Ratten have come back and its clear they have worked on their development of their craft. Sanderson stiff - thought he was good. Pyke should get another shot at it at some stage although hard to come back from what happened at Adelaide.
 
You think Voss may have been helped by a fit Curnow and Cripps? Not to mention the recruitment of Cerra and Hewitt.
 
greekstyler said:
Both Voss and Ratten have come back and its clear they have worked on their development of their craft. Sanderson stiff - thought he was good. Pyke should get another shot at it at some stage although hard to come back from what happened at Adelaide.
Click to expand...

Pyke's work at Sydney has shown he's clearly excellent at some facets of the game, their ball movement since bringing him on has been outstanding, some time spent under Longmire may serve him well to have another chance in future.
 
Scotland said:
Ratten getting boned by Carlton was more a reflection on Carlton than Ratten. He took a 3 win team from 2006 to finals 3 years in a row 2009-2011. Getting Chris Judd from 2008 onward (and Murphy, Gibbs, Kruezer as B2B2B #1 picks) helped but getting that group to 14 wins was good coaching. They fell back to 11-11 in 2012 and the powers that be thought Malthouse would lead that group to glory when everyone else thought that group just wasn't that good.

In Ratten's time as coach they traded out Josh Kennedy as part of the Judd trade, prioritised Robert Warnock over Sam Jacobs, had to get rid of Fev, traded a first round pick for Brock McLean etc. The 3 years they played finals Waite played in one of them. Kruezer played in one of them. Fev played in the first one then was traded. Kennedy was long gone. In a parallel universe where Kruezer and Waite aren't made of paper, or Fev pulls his head in, or they give up pick 1 instead of Kennedy the script could've been different. Not convinced sufficiently different to beat Geelong/St Kilda/Collingwood of the day but it's not like Ratten was coaching a team of superstars.
Click to expand...
Yup IMO strategically,

Peak Malthouse > Carlton Ratten >>> washed up Malthouse

St Kilda Ratten is tbd, but as Blues supporters we still have nothing but love for the guy. Saints have become the second team for some of us.
 
Both Voss & Ratten played over 250 games, I think that massively improved their likelihood of getting a 2nd chance. You're not going to see a failed no name get a 2nd go at the top job any time soon.
 
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