Second Chance Saloon

[PhatBoy]

who wants to give Ken a second chance at their club?

I don’t get the Hinkley hate. From 07 onwards Port were flotsam and jetsam in the AFL sea. To borrow a red dwarf quote, a ‘piece of spewtum floating in the toilet bowl of life.’

They have become relevant again under him and been a contender. One bad month of footy and that seems to have been forgotten, even when he followed it with a month of good footy

 

[blueboy25]

I don’t get the Hinkley hate. From 07 onwards Port were flotsam and jetsam in the AFL sea. To borrow a red dwarf quote, a ‘piece of spewtum floating in the toilet bowl of life.’

They have become relevant again under him and been a contender. One bad month of footy and that seems to have been forgotten, even when he followed it with a month of good footy

I think its more that he has been there a long time without making it to the GF.

Last year was all set up for him with a home prelim and they got their pants pulled down in a very embarrassing way.

 

[PhatBoy]

I think its more that he has been there a long time without making it to the GF.

Last year was all set up for him with a home prelim and they got their pants pulled down in a very embarrassing way.

The expectation that those are games that you should ‘just win’ because you’re one half of the teams contesting them is ridiculous.

For decades, probably the whole century, teams who are good and
‘Up there’ have still not been the best, they don’t just hand out grand final spots for being decent. Any number of things can impact it.

Hell, your club showed that in 99 and the recent Port side is nothing like the Essendon team that the Blues beat that year

 

[Juddernaut08]

I don’t get the Hinkley hate. From 07 onwards Port were flotsam and jetsam in the AFL sea. To borrow a red dwarf quote, a ‘piece of spewtum floating in the toilet bowl of life.’

They have become relevant again under him and been a contender. One bad month of footy and that seems to have been forgotten, even when he followed it with a month of good footy

Yup, I think Hinkley is respected in the industry. Just not at Port.

 

[blueboy25]

The expectation that those are games that you should ‘just win’ because you’re one half of the teams contesting them is ridiculous.

For decades, probably the whole century, teams who are good and
‘Up there’ have still not been the best, they don’t just hand out grand final spots for being decent. Any number of things can impact it.

Hell, your club showed that in 99 and the recent Port side is nothing like the Essendon team that the Blues beat that year

When you finish second and only 2 points behind Melbourne and you have a home final with 50,000 of your supporters behind you and then you go get belted by 12 goals you don't think there is something wrong there?

If they lost by a couple of goals then fair enough but they kicked 6 goals for the whole game.

 

[TwiggleyFanClub]

/thread

What prize do I win?

A case of Dank's finest.
Not sure what's in it exactly though. Paperwork got lost.

 

[Power Raid]

I don’t get the Hinkley hate. From 07 onwards Port were flotsam and jetsam in the AFL sea. To borrow a red dwarf quote, a ‘piece of spewtum floating in the toilet bowl of life.’

They have become relevant again under him and been a contender. One bad month of footy and that seems to have been forgotten, even when he followed it with a month of good footy

The problem isn't Ken but he is the symptom of the problem.

PAFC for a variety of reasons failed off the field around 2010. To break the shackles of SANFL management the club nearly went bankrupt and emerged with a better but cautious management in Koch, Ken and Keith holding the three big positions.

They did a remarkable job but they have taken the club as far as they can, with the mindset of maintaining the business ahead of the football departments performance.

In short they are trading away our ability to win a premiership by avoiding bottoming out. We are the new 9thmond.

 

[PhatBoy]

When you finish second and only 2 points behind Melbourne and you have a home final with 50,000 of your supporters behind you and then you go get belted by 12 goals you don't think there is something wrong there?

If they lost by a couple of goals then fair enough but they kicked 6 goals for the whole game.

Yes I don’t think there is something wrong there.

If there was, in every other year the grand final would just be teams 1-2 with the odd variation for when one of those teams plays a prelim at a neutral venue against a similarly ranked team.

Since when does just ‘playing at home’ or ‘finishing second’ mean you win? Does a coach’s job get easier and their tactical battle with their counterpart get simpler because of the crowd? Does the crowd get factored into game plan? Do the players make better decisions because of the noise?

 

[master bate]

1. Pyke - obviously can coach, especially skills and ball movement, time under Longmire suits his areas for improvement.

2. Leppitsch - pretty much the same reasons as Voss

3. Leon Cameron

Leon Cameron

Age

51

Ht

185cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.2

4star

K

12.4

5star

HB

4.7

3star

M

3.6

4star

T

0.9

3star

No current season stats available

D

20.8

5star

K

14.4

5star

HB

6.4

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

0.8

3star

- I'd favour a head of footy role over senior coach, not convinced he's a great tactician or inspiring coach, could do a short term gig for a rebuild

4. Buckley - I'd want to hear him explain why his teams played with so little flair and dare, and whether Longmuir was the main contributor to his success. But he does have genuine experience and at least an aura of leadership.

5. Teague - poor mans Pyke, but time under Hardwick will help his deficiencies, lost the players at Carlton but look at their injuries and midfield depth in his time, they didn't stand a chance

6. Brendon Bolton - He's only 43! Things didn't go well at Carlton but he was on a hiding to nothing too. He'd be a brave hire but a few more years at the Pies if things go well he really could get another go.

7. Alan Richardson - more suited to a short term gig at his age but he got 12 and 11 wins out of the Saints when their list truly was awful. Rebuilt with mostly failed draft picks and spare parts. Unlikely to get a gig but you could do a lot worse.

 

[PhatBoy]

The problem isn't Ken but he is the symptom of the problem.

PAFC for a variety of reasons failed off the field resulting. To break the shackles of SANFL management the club nearly went bankrupt and emerged with a better but cautious management in Koch, Ken and Keith holding the three big positions.

They did a remarkable job but they have taken the club as far as they can, with the mindset of maintaining the business ahead of the football departments performance.

In short they are trading away our ability to win a premiership by avoiding bottoming out. We are the new 9thmond.

It’s 10 rounds since you played a prelim.

This comes up with the Cats all the time. Who makes a prelim and decides ‘nope. That’s it.’

I’m not saying you’re wrong - perhaps he’s taken them as far as he can but I sure as hell wouldn’t have got to the end of last year and gone ‘well we are only better than 14-15 teams we need to give up.’

 

[blueboy25]

Yes I don’t think there is something wrong there.

If there was, in every other year the grand final would just be teams 1-2 with the odd variation for when one of those teams plays a prelim at a neutral venue against a similarly ranked team.

Since when does just ‘playing at home’ or ‘finishing second’ mean you win? Does a coach’s job get easier and their tactical battle with their counterpart get simpler because of the crowd? Does the crowd get factored into game plan? Do the players make better decisions because of the noise?

I never said it meant you would win.

Do you not think a home crowd on your own home deck is an advantage to a team?

Remember they didn't just lose, they got belted. With the squad they have to not make a GF with Hinkley in charge for the best part of a decade. Do you not expect the locals to start getting a little restless with Ken and thinking that maybe a new coach could take them to little bit further.

Was Hinkley your favourite player growing up or something?

 

[PhatBoy]

I never said it meant you would win.

Do you not think a home crowd on your own home deck is an advantage to a team?

Remember they didn't just lose, they got belted. With the squad they have to not make a GF with Hinkley in charge for the best part of a decade. Do you not expect the locals to start getting a little restless with Ken and thinking that maybe a new coach could take them to little bit further.

Was Hinkley your favourite player growing up or something?

This is peak big footy.

You dont think a coach of a recent top four regular should be sacked after one bad and then one good month of coaching so you must have had a childhood crush on him.

The squad they have?

Is it really that good? They’ve got some excellent players absolutely. Wines, Gray, Boak, Alir - who has only been there a short time - and a few others but it’s not a superstar line up. Their best key forward was only elite for one year really.

Yes of course playing a prelim at home gives you a good shot it doesn’t mean you can’t coach if you don’t win it.

So was he my favourite player? No. Do I even think he’s a brilliant coach? No.

However after watching 30 years of this sport and seeing a steady increase in the manner in which reasonably successful coaches are just tossed aside for relatively little reason I am staggered that guys can be held responsible for, wait for it, making the top 4 too often, which is essentially what a lot of it boils down to.

 

[master bate]

However after watching 30 years of this sport and seeing a steady increase in the manner in which reasonably successful coaches are just tossed aside for relatively little reason I am staggered that guys can be held responsible for, wait for it, making the top 4 too often, which is essentially what a lot of it boils down to.

Are teams sacking coaches faster and faster? I'm not convinced they are. Maybe there's no Sheedy's anymore, but given the strain of the job that might be ok. Buckley, Hardwick, Goodwin all got time to go again. The Giants held on to Cameron for ages. And even someone like Dew has been given a far longer chance than teams would give with his record. Teague's the only coach recently that got a short go at it.

I also think it's pretty irrelevant to Port. Ken's been there for a decade, so moving him on is different to guys getting sacked after 2, 3 or 4 years.

There's certainly a lot of reason to keep him, but at the same time I don't think you can only sack a coach who's losing a lot. There can be just as good a reason to sack a coach who gets close but doesn't get over the line. Or even a coach who does win it all but then loses their touch.

For example, I think the cricketers standing up and axing Langer was inspired. All power to Pat Cummins I say. They knew and outlined exactly why they needed a fresh voice.

I think Hawthorn have done the right thing for them and Clarko by changing coach too. Clarko gets a fresh start. Hawthorn get a fresh start and someone to go on the journey with their young players. They handled it dreadfully but it's a mature decision that reflects that even the greatest coach of modern times can't do it all alone and requires the right players, right assistants, right time frame etc.

If Port decide it's time for a fresh voice after the Boak, Gray, Dixon kind of era then that's not unreasonable. Similarly if they decide they have a lot of talent but need a different game plan for finals I think that's fair too. There's a lot of risk in both of those decisions but there's enough evidence to suggest it's ok to take that risk, especially if they have a way to evaluate the candidates in order to make a confident hire.

 

[PhatBoy]

Are teams sacking coaches faster and faster? I'm not convinced they are. Maybe there's no Sheedy's anymore, but given the strain of the job that might be ok. Buckley, Hardwick, Goodwin all got time to go again. The Giants held on to Cameron for ages. And even someone like Dew has been given a far longer chance than teams would give with his record. Teague's the only coach recently that got a short go at it.

I also think it's pretty irrelevant to Port. Ken's been there for a decade, so moving him on is different to guys getting sacked after 2, 3 or 4 years.

There's certainly a lot of reason to keep him, but at the same time I don't think you can only sack a coach who's losing a lot. There can be just as good a reason to sack a coach who gets close but doesn't get over the line. Or even a coach who does win it all but then loses their touch.

For example, I think the cricketers standing up and axing Langer was inspired. All power to Pat Cummins I say. They knew and outlined exactly why they needed a fresh voice.

I think Hawthorn have done the right thing for them and Clarko by changing coach too. Clarko gets a fresh start. Hawthorn get a fresh start and someone to go on the journey with their young players. They handled it dreadfully but it's a mature decision that reflects that even the greatest coach of modern times can't do it all alone and requires the right players, right assistants, right time frame etc.

If Port decide it's time for a fresh voice after the Boak, Gray, Dixon kind of era then that's not unreasonable. Similarly if they decide they have a lot of talent but need a different game plan for finals I think that's fair too. There's a lot of risk in both of those decisions but there's enough evidence to suggest it's ok to take that risk, especially if they have a way to evaluate the candidates in order to make a confident hire.

The fresh voice idea I don’t really have an issue with but reading a lot of comments it’s as though in the space of 10 weeks he’s completely forgotten how to coach and the players have seemingly been absolved of all responsibility.

I am not sure if coaches get moved on more now or not but I never ever noticed when I was younger that there would be talk about moving coaches on because they finished high in the finals but didn’t win the comp.

Sackings were for coaches who had overseen a rapid decline in output over a decent sample size, new guys who did nothing to enhance their team’s fortunes, or coaches who’s players no longer gave a s**t

 

[blueboy25]

This is peak big footy.

You dont think a coach of a recent top four regular should be sacked after one bad and then one good month of coaching so you must have had a childhood crush on him.

The squad they have?

Is it really that good? They’ve got some excellent players absolutely. Wines, Gray, Boak, Alir - who has only been there a short time - and a few others but it’s not a superstar line up. Their best key forward was only elite for one year really.

Yes of course playing a prelim at home gives you a good shot it doesn’t mean you can’t coach if you don’t win it.

So was he my favourite player? No. Do I even think he’s a brilliant coach? No.

However after watching 30 years of this sport and seeing a steady increase in the manner in which reasonably successful coaches are just tossed aside for relatively little reason I am staggered that guys can be held responsible for, wait for it, making the top 4 too often, which is essentially what a lot of it boils down to.

So the squad is average and you think he an ok coach plus you think home ground advantage is overrated but they keep finishing top 4.

Imagine if they got a good or brilliant coach.

 

[PhatBoy]

So the squad is average and you think he an ok coach plus you think home ground advantage is overrated but they keep finishing top 4.

Imagine if they got a good or brilliant coach.

Yes if home ground advantage was as much a ticket as you say it is, why isn’t Buckley hammered for losing in 2018.

Fagan gets verbally fellated yet has dropped a prelim at the Gabba to an interstate side who themselves are regularly accused of only even making finals BECAUSE of their own home ground.

If Carlton drop a home final to Sydney or Fremantle this year are you going to blame Voss for it?
Where did I say the squad is average?

You are among the worst arguers of a point I’ve ever come across if you’re silly enough to take my comment as ‘he has an average squad.’

Person thinks regular top 4 coach is an ok coach = person loves that coach and thinks he’s the modern reincarnation of Alan Jeans.

I simply think that what once, for all clubs, constituted not the ultimate success but reasonable success, is suddenly regarded with no good reason as being a hideous failure

 

[Whiskers]

You think Voss may have been helped by a fit Curnow and Cripps? Not to mention the recruitment of Cerra and Hewitt.

Yep Carlton have been injury hit for years and years.

 

[blueboy25]

Yes if home ground advantage was as much a ticket as you say it is, why isn’t Buckley hammered for losing in 2018.

Fagan gets verbally fellated yet has dropped a prelim at the Gabba to an interstate side who themselves are regularly accused of only even making finals BECAUSE of their own home ground.

If Carlton drop a home final to Sydney or Fremantle this year are you going to blame Voss for it?
Where did I say the squad is average?

You are among the worst arguers of a point I’ve ever come across if you’re silly enough to take my comment as ‘he has an average squad.’

Person thinks regular top 4 coach is an ok coach = person loves that coach and thinks he’s the modern reincarnation of Alan Jeans.

I simply think that what once, for all clubs, constituted not the ultimate success but reasonable success, is suddenly regarded with no good reason as being a hideous failure

Probably not being the first year back in the finals for a long time plus having a young squad but I would hope they don't get blown off the park.

If he ends up at the club for 10 years and never makes a GF and loses 2 Prelims in a row both at home with a very mature side, you would have to ask yourself the question, has he got the most out of the squad.

I have never said he was a failure but that sometimes you may get to the point where they may be a better option out there.

Do you think that is fair?

 

[PhatBoy]

Probably not being the first year back in the finals for a long time plus having a young squad but I would hope they don't get blown off the park.

If he ends up at the club for 10 years and never makes a GF and loses 2 Prelims in a row both at home with a very mature side, you would have to ask yourself the question, has he got the most out of the squad.

I have never said he was a failure but that sometimes you may get to the point where they may be a better option out there.

Do you think that is fair?

I’m not arguing for a second that a new voice or a Clarkson if he wanted the job or whatever wouldn’t be a viable option but I don’t see the value in putting a line through someone because of 80 minutes of footy weighed against the course of a season. Or in this case two lots of 80 minutes against two seasons.

That doesn’t prove that he CANT get them further. If they were to really fail badly this year and be miles off - which is a distinct possibility - I would be of the view that he’s on notice for 2023 and that would decide his fate