SFNL Division 1 2023 discussion

[sainter01]

Then Dingley and Cheltenham would be relegated to the division that suits. It’s also a flawed argument, when I was young Rowville was a Div 4 team, now they are in the Premier division playing in grand finals, a few of the big Div 1 clubs from my youth are now in Div 3.

Things change.

Rowville is now a big suburb with lots of juniors coming through and they’ve progressed in Eastern, there’s just too many clubs in Southern, Bayside areas when you’ve got VAFA, SFNL and then clubs down to Mornington/Nepean all competing for players

 

[Bunk Moreland]

To his credit he was only giving examples of clubs. The reality is no Southern League clubs would make it in the Super League. If I recall rightly only a few years ago (when Dingley were in their prime of winning flags) they played a practice match against Noble and were kept goalless. I know what people think of practice matches but fair proof just there!

I don’t know the the details of this particular match but I’d say there were circumstances… in a competitive match with full squads, I call complete bullshit that the premiers of Eastern would hold the premiers of Southern goalless.

Yes there’s a gap and I’d say a comfortable Eastern win, but not that kind of shellacking.

Not sure who Cranbourne are playing in practice matches so that could be interesting if scores are kept.

I think they’d put up a competitive showing against most local clubs across the city.

 

[Wild Thing]

I don’t know the the details of this particular match but I’d say there were circumstances… in a competitive match with full squads, I call complete bullshit that the premiers of Eastern would hold the premiers of Southern goalless.

Yes there’s a gap and I’d say a comfortable Eastern win, but not that kind of shellacking.

Not sure who Cranbourne are playing in practice matches so that could be interesting if scores are kept.

I think they’d put up a competitive showing against most local clubs across the city.

Cranbourne have lost a few heading into this season and probably won’t go in as favourites. City and Dingley lost a few as well….really Chelts to lose this year with St Paul’s my smoky.

 

[DangerousD]

Rowville is now a big suburb with lots of juniors coming through and they’ve progressed in Eastern, there’s just too many clubs in Southern, Bayside areas when you’ve got VAFA, SFNL and then clubs down to Mornington/Nepean all competing for players

Sorry Sainter but I think you’re making excuses or not realising that all leagues have this issue.

I live in Templestowe Lower, I have Doncaster, Doncaster East, Templestowe, Donvale, Park Orchards, Warrandyte, Balwyn, Mitchum, Blackburn, Ringwood, Ringwood East, North Ringwood, Norwood, Surrey Park, Nunawading, East Burwood and Forest Hill within 15km and that’s just from the EFNL

Within 10KM is Bundoora, Eltham, Macleod, Heidelberg, Montmorency, Greensborough from the Northern League

Within 15KM we have Mercellin, Old Ivanhoe, Kew, Whitefriers, Old Camberwell, Ivanhoe (seperate to old), Bulleen Templestowe, Manningham, Aquinas, Old Paradians and more but I can be bothered looking where they are all playing in the VAFA.

Mind you, this is within 10-15KM of my house, all these clubs are competing with each other

 

[2s Hack]

Rowville is now a big suburb with lots of juniors coming through and they’ve progressed in Eastern, there’s just too many clubs in Southern, Bayside areas when you’ve got VAFA, SFNL and then clubs down to Mornington/Nepean all competing for players

Hence the call for a AFL Bayside comp!

 

[2s Hack]

Sorry Sainter but I think you’re making excuses or not realising that all leagues have this issue.

I live in Templestowe Lower, I have Doncaster, Doncaster East, Templestowe, Donvale, Park Orchards, Warrandyte, Balwyn, Mitchum, Blackburn, Ringwood, Ringwood East, North Ringwood, Norwood, Surrey Park, Nunawading, East Burwood and Forest Hill within 15km and that’s just from the EFNL

Within 10KM is Bundoora, Eltham, Macleod, Heidelberg, Montmorency, Greensborough from the Northern League

Within 15KM we have Mercellin, Old Ivanhoe, Kew, Whitefriers, Old Camberwell, Ivanhoe (seperate to old), Bulleen Templestowe, Manningham, Aquinas, Old Paradians and more but I can be bothered looking where they are all playing in the VAFA.

Mind you, this is within 10-15KM of my house, all these clubs are competing with each other

So eastern suburban clubs all competing in the EFNL & Northern suburban clubs all competing in the NFL??

What a charming little idea!

 

[DangerousD]

So eastern suburban clubs all competing in the EFNL & Northern suburban clubs all competing in the NFL??

What a charming little idea!

You do realise if you put a mark on the map anywhere, then every suburb to the east of that mark you could call an eastern suburb? What makes a suburb a northern suburb, western suburb, sth eastern? You are taking about made up lines on a map. According to my friends where I grew up, Warrandyte, Balwyn, Doncaster, Doncaster East aren’t eastern suburbs, same as Noble Park yet they are all east of the city just like all the SFNl clubs.

The VAFA league has clubs from all across metro Melbourne, it’s not a wild idea to play another team out of your geographical area.

Ive never played for a top club, I’m not sure about you, but I do wonder if clubs like Noble Park, Deer Park, Aberfeldi wonder how they would go against the other top clubs throughout Melbourne and strive to be the best team in Melbourne, rather than just be the best team in a small section of Melbourne.

You could even have the VFL as the top league in Melbourne with the bottom team relegated. Every soccer/football team in England/Wales can make its way to the Premier league if they are good enough,

 

[1873 United]

Sorry Sainter but I think you’re making excuses or not realising that all leagues have this issue.

I live in Templestowe Lower, I have Doncaster, Doncaster East, Templestowe, Donvale, Park Orchards, Warrandyte, Balwyn, Mitchum, Blackburn, Ringwood, Ringwood East, North Ringwood, Norwood, Surrey Park, Nunawading, East Burwood and Forest Hill within 15km and that’s just from the EFNL

Within 10KM is Bundoora, Eltham, Macleod, Heidelberg, Montmorency, Greensborough from the Northern League

Within 15KM we have Mercellin, Old Ivanhoe, Kew, Whitefriers, Old Camberwell, Ivanhoe (seperate to old), Bulleen Templestowe, Manningham, Aquinas, Old Paradians and more but I can be bothered looking where they are all playing in the VAFA.

Mind you, this is within 10-15KM of my house, all these clubs are competing with each other

Even noting all of those clubs, within the Bayside and Kingston council areas there are clubs on every corner. I would hazard a guess and state that the (Greater) Bayside is serviced by more clubs within a tissues proximity than any other area of Melbourne.

As an example, Hampton Rovers are literally 200m from the Moorabbin Kangaroos, again who are 500m from the Hampton Hammers. It's almost crazy how many clubs reside in the area. Then you have St. Bedes/Mentone, Parkdale and Mordialloc within a stones throw.

 

[DangerousD]

Even noting all of those clubs, within the Bayside and Kingston council areas there are clubs on every corner. I would hazard a guess and state that the (Greater) Bayside is serviced by more clubs within a tissues proximity than any other area of Melbourne.

As an example, Hampton Rovers are literally 200m from the Moorabbin Kangaroos, again who are 500m from the Hampton Hammers. It's almost crazy how many clubs reside in the area. Then you have St. Bedes/Mentone, Parkdale and Mordialloc within a stones throw.

Is it a huge loss to have senior teams merge? If what you say is true, it’s hard to see how they all survive and wouldn’t it dilute the standard of competition having so many clubs that close?

Aside from this, what makes SFNL clubs weaker than Easter or Northern clubs? Is it the local councils that li it the clubs growth? I know that most grounds in the EFNL you need to pay to get in and lots of the Div1 clubs have some form of pokies alignment, I haven’t seen as much in the southern league.

 

[2s Hack]

You do realise if you put a mark on the map anywhere, then every suburb to the east of that mark you could call an eastern suburb? What makes a suburb a northern suburb, western suburb, sth eastern? You are taking about made up lines on a map. According to my friends where I grew up, Warrandyte, Balwyn, Doncaster, Doncaster East aren’t eastern suburbs, same as Noble Park yet they are all east of the city just like all the SFNl clubs.

The VAFA league has clubs from all across metro Melbourne, it’s not a wild idea to play another team out of your geographical area.

Ive never played for a top club, I’m not sure about you, but I do wonder if clubs like Noble Park, Deer Park, Aberfeldi wonder how they would go against the other top clubs throughout Melbourne and strive to be the best team in Melbourne, rather than just be the best team in a small section of Melbourne.

You could even have the VFL as the top league in Melbourne with the bottom team relegated. Every soccer/football team in England/Wales can make its way to the Premier league if they are good enough,

We used to have a competition like that when I was a lad, it was called the VFA. To have a "the best of the best" competition is just fanciful dream world kind of stuff.

If VAFA clubs want to play all across Melbourne, then all power to them. This is the Southern Football Netball League

 

[MortlockWatcher]

Should only be 1 suburban league just with many divisions.. Premier Division would be something like Rowville, Noble Park, Balwyn, Vermont, Aberfeldie, Strathmore, Cheltenham, Dingley, Heidleberg, Montmorency & Bundoora.. with 2 going up and down each year...

There was a plan to do that just after World War II with one organisation overseeing metro footy.

Initially, clubs were to be assigned geographic regions (East, North, South or West) and placed into divisions (there would have been at least eight divisions in some areas). In time, it was hoped to create one or two divisions at the top with the best clubs in the four First Divisions.

I think a stumbling block would have been the VFL and VFA's attitude towards it. They probably would have seen it as a competitor which could possibly reduce their attendances and would have been against it.

 

[DangerousD]

We used to have a competition like that when I was a lad, it was called the VFA. To have a "the best of the best" competition is just fanciful dream world kind of stuff.

If VAFA clubs want to play all across Melbourne, then all power to them. This is the Southern Football Netball League

Each to their own I guess, interested to know why you think the idea of best of the best league is fanciful dream world kind of stuff, when there are already football leagues and other sporting code leagues who already do it?

 

[sammelb80]

Even noting all of those clubs, within the Bayside and Kingston council areas there are clubs on every corner. I would hazard a guess and state that the (Greater) Bayside is serviced by more clubs within a tissues proximity than any other area of Melbourne.

As an example, Hampton Rovers are literally 200m from the Moorabbin Kangaroos, again who are 500m from the Hampton Hammers. It's almost crazy how many clubs reside in the area. Then you have St. Bedes/Mentone, Parkdale and Mordialloc within a stones throw.

Bentleigh, St Pauls, Glen Eira etc it goes on

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Is it a huge loss to have senior teams merge? If what you say is true, it’s hard to see how they all survive and wouldn’t it dilute the standard of competition having so many clubs that close?

Aside from this, what makes SFNL clubs weaker than Easter or Northern clubs? Is it the local councils that li it the clubs growth? I know that most grounds in the EFNL you need to pay to get in and lots of the Div1 clubs have some form of pokies alignment, I haven’t seen as much in the southern league.

Only two EFNL clubs have pokies - Noble Park (who are a Southern club who transferred) and Vermont.

The spending has definitely decreased since the salary cap and things are more even. Yes there would be clubs who break it in their under the table way but I’m certain it’s not as widespread or as much as people like to whinge about (with a couple of fairly obvious exceptions). Many clubs have got smart with non-cash incentives like jobs and other services and there’s not really much you can do about that.

The points caps has also made a genuine difference. A club like Vermont never rebuilt. They were Grand Final material every single year and if they didn’t make it, it was a failure. That’s because if they ever lost players, they could simply go and recruit 4 or 5 state league level players in an off season. Or go and get the gun best and fairest from another three local clubs. They can’t do that any more. No they’re not tumbling down to relegation, but they do go to mid table and take a year or two to reset, which gives other clubs a chance.

My point is things are genuinely more even now than they were say 20 years ago.



On your question why the EFNL has been stronger… it owns the whole east and has always been largely an outer suburbs based league, where all the young population is. That’s not the way in the SFNL, which has always been more inner suburbs. The people still move to the outer suburbs, but the league hasn’t included them - it’s been locked out by the MPNFL and SEFNL. If you had a single Southern league that had included everything down to and including Frankston, Cranbourne, Berwick, Narre Warren etc, then it would have been every bit as strong as the EFNL. Also there’s little VAFA in the East, whereas there’s heaps in the southern suburbs.

Take the SFNL but include Noble, Edi Asp, Bonbeach, Chelsea, Seaford, Pines, YCW, Bombers, Langwarrin, Cranbourne, Berwick, Beaconsfield, Pakenham, Officer, Narre Warren… it’s as good as the EFNL.

 

[bedford]

Bentleigh, St Pauls, Glen Eira etc it goes on

Murrumbeena and Caulfield

 

[bedford]

Only two EFNL clubs have pokies - Noble Park (who are a Southern club who transferred) and Vermont.

The spending has definitely decreased since the salary cap and things are more even. Yes there would be clubs who break it in their under the table way but I’m certain it’s not as widespread or as much as people like to whinge about (with a couple of fairly obvious exceptions). Many clubs have got smart with non-cash incentives like jobs and other services and there’s not really much you can do about that.

The points caps has also made a genuine difference. A club like Vermont never rebuilt. They were Grand Final material every single year and if they didn’t make it, it was a failure. That’s because if they ever lost players, they could simply go and recruit 4 or 5 state league level players in an off season. Or go and get the gun best and fairest from another three local clubs. They can’t do that any more. No they’re not tumbling down to relegation, but they do go to mid table and take a year or two to reset, which gives other clubs a chance.

My point is things are genuinely more even now than they were say 20 years ago.



On your question why the EFNL has been stronger… it owns the whole east and has always been largely an outer suburbs based league, where all the young population is. That’s not the way in the SFNL, which has always been more inner suburbs. The people still move to the outer suburbs, but the league hasn’t included them - it’s been locked out by the MPNFL and SEFNL. If you had a single Southern league that had included everything down to and including Frankston, Cranbourne, Berwick, Narre Warren etc, then it would have been every bit as strong as the EFNL. Also there’s little VAFA in the East, whereas there’s heaps in the southern suburbs.

Take the SFNL but include Noble, Edi Asp, Bonbeach, Chelsea, Seaford, Pines, YCW, Bombers, Langwarrin, Cranbourne, Berwick, Beaconsfield, Pakenham, Officer, Narre Warren… it’s as good as the EFNL.

I know Noble Park have been audited by the EFL

 

[DangerousD]

Only two EFNL clubs have pokies - Noble Park (who are a Southern club who transferred) and Vermont.

The spending has definitely decreased since the salary cap and things are more even. Yes there would be clubs who break it in their under the table way but I’m certain it’s not as widespread or as much as people like to whinge about (with a couple of fairly obvious exceptions). Many clubs have got smart with non-cash incentives like jobs and other services and there’s not really much you can do about that.

The points caps has also made a genuine difference. A club like Vermont never rebuilt. They were Grand Final material every single year and if they didn’t make it, it was a failure. That’s because if they ever lost players, they could simply go and recruit 4 or 5 state league level players in an off season. Or go and get the gun best and fairest from another three local clubs. They can’t do that any more. No they’re not tumbling down to relegation, but they do go to mid table and take a year or two to reset, which gives other clubs a chance.

My point is things are genuinely more even now than they were say 20 years ago.



On your question why the EFNL has been stronger… it owns the whole east and has always been largely an outer suburbs based league, where all the young population is. That’s not the way in the SFNL, which has always been more inner suburbs. The people still move to the outer suburbs, but the league hasn’t included them - it’s been locked out by the MPNFL and SEFNL. If you had a single Southern league that had included everything down to and including Frankston, Cranbourne, Berwick, Narre Warren etc, then it would have been every bit as strong as the EFNL. Also there’s little VAFA in the East, whereas there’s heaps in the southern suburbs.

Take the SFNL but include Noble, Edi Asp, Bonbeach, Chelsea, Seaford, Pines, YCW, Bombers, Langwarrin, Cranbourne, Berwick, Beaconsfield, Pakenham, Officer, Narre Warren… it’s as good as the EFNL.

Cheers for that, I just did a quick search and it seems a few leagues are trying to get the pokies out of their clubs which I like. I do recall their being more EFNL clubs with pokies but I last played about 18 years ago. Good points regarding the VAFA stealing players.

Thanks for detailed reply

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Cheers for that, I just did a quick search and it seems a few leagues are trying to get the pokies out of their clubs which I like. I do recall their being more EFNL clubs with pokies but I last played about 18 years ago. Good points regarding the VAFA stealing players.

Thanks for detailed reply

East Ringwood had them but the venue hit some hurdles and then COVID killed it off. It’s closed down now.

Vermont actually owns two pokie palaces now.

 

[1873 United]

Is it a huge loss to have senior teams merge? If what you say is true, it’s hard to see how they all survive and wouldn’t it dilute the standard of competition having so many clubs that close?

Aside from this, what makes SFNL clubs weaker than Easter or Northern clubs? Is it the local councils that li it the clubs growth? I know that most grounds in the EFNL you need to pay to get in and lots of the Div1 clubs have some form of pokies alignment, I haven’t seen as much in the southern league.

I cannot think of a current SFL club with a pokie venue, the last club would have been Noble Park and they're now in the Eastern. Gross overcrowding of clubs throughout the Glen Eira, Kingston and Bayside Council areas depletes the overall strength of clubs. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter, as it provides opportunity to a lot of blokes who may not be good enough to get a game if it wasn't for the current setup.

The VAFA, MPNFL and SFL all overlap each other, this typically keeps the clubs in leagues that are competitive for them, as opposed to the Oakleigh Districts of the world who shifted to the Eastern for God knows why!

 

[ChristianBoy]

Van Unan playing for free at Powelltown

 

[2s Hack]

Van Unan playing for free at Powelltown

 

[ChristianBoy]

Not a believer?

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Even noting all of those clubs, within the Bayside and Kingston council areas there are clubs on every corner. I would hazard a guess and state that the (Greater) Bayside is serviced by more clubs within a tissues proximity than any other area of Melbourne.

As an example, Hampton Rovers are literally 200m from the Moorabbin Kangaroos, again who are 500m from the Hampton Hammers. It's almost crazy how many clubs reside in the area. Then you have St. Bedes/Mentone, Parkdale and Mordialloc within a stones throw.

This is not unique to SFNL, every metro comp in inner Melbourne has similar issues and seem to thrive. In EDFL Aberfeldie, Doutta Stars, East Keilor, Avondale Heights, Marby Park & Strathmore are all within a small pocket and they are all Premier clubs, then throw in Moonee Valley, St Bernards, PEGS etc etc. Beaumauris, Mentone, Parkdale & Mordialloc are well populated areas with heaps of kids, the demographics are perfect for them to thrive, let alone the fact it is probably the most anglo area in all of Melbourne, so not fighting for kids against soccer like many other communities.

 

[Billy the Lid]

This is not unique to SFNL, every metro comp in inner Melbourne has similar issues and seem to thrive. In EDFL Aberfeldie, Doutta Stars, East Keilor, Avondale Heights, Marby Park & Strathmore are all within a small pocket and they are all Premier clubs, then throw in Moonee Valley, St Bernards, PEGS etc etc. Beaumauris, Mentone, Parkdale & Mordialloc are well populated areas with heaps of kids, the demographics are perfect for them to thrive, let alone the fact it is probably the most anglo area in all of Melbourne, so not fighting for kids against soccer like many other communities.

Based within the Bayside LGA alone there is VAFA - Old Melburnians, Old Brighton, Elsternwick, Hampton Rovers, Beaumaris and SFNL – East Brighton, Black Rock, Cheltenham, Moorabbin and Hampton. For an established area that is an extraordinary amount of senior clubs to sustain. Highett is just over the Nepean Hwy with several Kingston based clubs just a stones throws away.

 

[2s Hack]

Based within the Bayside LGA alone there is VAFA - Old Melburnians, Old Brighton, Elsternwick, Hampton Rovers, Beaumaris and SFNL – East Brighton, Black Rock, Cheltenham, Moorabbin and Hampton. For an established area that is an extraordinary amount of senior clubs to sustain. Highett is just over the Nepean Hwy with several Kingston based clubs just a stones throws away.

Those clubs would make a great comp geographically