Politics Should we NOW nationalize our mining sector?

[Gethelred]

The likes of Netflix seem to have peaked.

Newspapers are a victim of other sources of information being available.

Not really. Their growth has peaked perhaps, but that's the consequence of a saturation based business. There's also the fact that in Australia one subscription doesn't get you much; it's why we split one subscription between 8 of us, so we're not spending massive amounts of money.

The kicker's going to be, if everyone who's going to have netflix has netflix, how does the business continue to grow? Where does more money come from? Diversification's all very well and good, but they've not really shown all that much ingenuity to this point. And if they simply raise fees, people will drop off.

They can't really start running ads, so I think we'll start to see more ads as content TV. League of Legends (which is a video game where people play against another team online) published a show on Netflix called Arcane; it's actually a cracker of a show if you're into that sort of thing. Provided it gives us decent content, it's not a problem; good content is good content, even if it also serves as an advertisement for Subway.

Newspapers are absolutely a victim of customers having faster/better alternatives, but I think the reason people are dropping off is more to do with trust than it is to do with speed or quality. Newspapers, upon seeing that they were losing people, began to ask why they were losing them and saw people looking to more partisan sources of information. What they did was move towards more opinion and less news, and opinion replacing news reporting and investigation. The 7 o'clock news gets replaced with the Project; you get it.

What they should've done instead was specialized; you're going to lose the people you're going to lose, but distill the advantage you have as a formal journalism department - with investigation, research, connections etc - and specialize in news reporting. Double down in what you're doing, hammer on and identify a segment of the market and deliver for them. Make yourself the most trusted media source in the market, and let the others chase the online partisan market in which they will always be behind the 8 ball, slower and with more constraints.

There will always be a place for hard news. Since Newscorp, Fairfax and Kerry Stokes enterprises have started to follow the trend, online resources for reporting are picking up the slack and hammering on the trust angle. But very frequently, they're still a partisan source; they have their own biases and are open with them.

 

[Carringbush2010]

*I see this thread like many others has taken a veer toward media, it's sources, fringe electorate etc. - all with slight relevance.

*Like everyone else I'm guilty as charged of doing the same.

I'm not in favour of nationalizing our resource sector, but it is a fair question. I guess if it was 'state run' then the overall value would perhaps not have the same garner, but more $ for the public purse - that is a speculation of course.

Very large corporates like Rio, Gina, Forrest and BHP (not even sure if they're wholly and solely Australian companies anyway) would likely move offshore, with the only revenue loss would be from a tax of those companies, which is barely anything above current export dollars anyway.

Given the remote locations of most of our resource operations what would a state run operation look like i:e how would it differ for the workforce from a private enterprise? Would be other considerations to weigh up compared to working for the sec or in the rail yards (local) back in the day.

Yeah sure, 'public servants' are usually better paid etc. than privatized, but overwhelmingly private resource companies look after their work force very well - plus the work life balance, nothing more attractive than working / living equal time.

These are the reasons I've been doing it for 15 years, has set me up for a projected earlier than expected retirement as well.

So purely from a workers perspective, I'm not sure I can trust that a state run operation would be as good for me. Not a given it wouldn't be - still, don't fix what isn't broken.

From a 'what's good for the country' perspective, well that's a little harder to decipher. I get the attraction of taking resources away from private enterprise to have 'control' and revenue for the public purse however we've seen in the past state run entities like the sec were somewhat not for profit, and what is the expertise of state to turn profit? Could argue not very good or more accurately not trustworthy.

Would the state go hell hard for a 'profit' model for the benefit for the public purse? And could we trust the 'state' to pass on that revenue to the person on the street?

 

[Kwality]

*I see this thread like many others has taken a veer toward media, it's sources, fringe electorate etc. - all with slight relevance.

*Like everyone else I'm guilty as charged of doing the same.

I'm not in favour of nationalizing our resource sector, but it is a fair question. I guess if it was 'state run' then the overall value would perhaps not have the same garner, but more $ for the public purse - that is a speculation of course.

Very large corporates like Rio, Gina, Forrest and BHP (not even sure if they're wholly and solely Australian companies anyway) would likely move offshore, with the only revenue loss would be from a tax of those companies, which is barely anything above current export dollars anyway.

Given the remote locations of most of our resource operations what would a state run operation look like i:e how would it differ for the workforce from a private enterprise? Would be other considerations to weigh up compared to working for the sec or in the rail yards (local) back in the day.

Yeah sure, 'public servants' are usually better paid etc. than privatized, but overwhelmingly private resource companies look after their work force very well - plus the work life balance, nothing more attractive than working / living equal time.

These are the reasons I've been doing it for 15 years, has set me up for a projected earlier than expected retirement as well.

So purely from a workers perspective, I'm not sure I can trust that a state run operation would be as good for me. Not a given it wouldn't be - still, don't fix what isn't broken.

From a 'what's good for the country' perspective, well that's a little harder to decipher. I get the attraction of taking resources away from private enterprise to have 'control' and revenue for the public purse however we've seen in the past state run entities like the sec were somewhat not for profit, and what is the expertise of state to turn profit? Could argue not very good or more accurately not trustworthy.

Would the state go hell hard for a 'profit' model for the benefit for the public purse? And could we trust the 'state' to pass on that revenue to the person on the street?

What is often not understood is the wheeling & dealing involved in getting a project off the ground that regularly extends beyond a parliamentary term. See the attached paper outlining the reservation policy for WA LNG.

W A G A S S U P P L Y & D E M A N D The Need for Policy Intervention

https://www.pc.gov.au/inquiries/completed/upstream-petroleum/submissions/sub001-attachment2.pdf

 

[Gough]

It's kind of sad that the mining industry will use the the subsidies that they get from the government to campaign against the same government. perhaps it's time the bottomless pit of money that they seem to have available to them from Treasurey to them was reigned in a bit if that's the sort of respect and gratitude they show.

 

[kranky al]

why wouldnt you just be fine with taxing the private sector for resources extracted from the ground?

If only we did….

 

[Carringbush2010]

What is often not understood is the wheeling & dealing involved in getting a project off the ground that regularly extends beyond a parliamentary term. See the attached paper outlining the reservation policy for WA LNG.

W A G A S S U P P L Y & D E M A N D The Need for Policy Intervention

https://www.pc.gov.au/inquiries/completed/upstream-petroleum/submissions/sub001-attachment2.pdf

tldr,

So are you in favour of state run resourcing or not? And why?

 

[Kwality]

tldr,

So are you in favour of state run resourcing or not? And why?

The State could not get such a project (mining) off the ground imho. Getting the best deals take haggling & the State are limited by tenders.

Obviously power can be run by the State. I understand how different power stations can compete but when its one water pipe or set of lines running past a house, its makes more sense for it to be owned by the State as the road is.
General wharves can be run effectively by the State but where mining projects need specialised loaders it makes sense to me for them for the miner to build it & own it. Same with railway lines.

The only time privatisation of current assets (e.g Geelong Port) makes sense to me is if it delivers improved production & cost. Geelong Port was privatised & the money went into general revenue. Its just been sold by the original buyer & they made a $motza. An example of short term gain frittered away.

The Future Fund (Future Fund - Wikipedia) is an example of an asset sold & the proceeds put to good use.

Trust that explains my thoughts on the subject.

Question tldr, pls explain.

 

[Kwality]

If only we did….

Isnt that called royalties ?

 

[Cap]

I'd vote no.

Just tax them more.

 

[kranky al]

Isnt that called royalties ?

Royalties are not a tax - royalties are said company compensating the citizens of that state for the use of that resource. Its a raw material.


Tax is what companies pay from the profits of extracting and selling that resource….. well it should be anyway….

 

[Carringbush2010]

Question tldr, pls explain.

Too long didn't read.

 

[Power Raid]

Royalties are not a tax - royalties are said company compensating the citizens of that state for the use of that resource. Its a raw material.


Tax is what companies pay from the profits of extracting and selling that resource….. well it should be anyway….


View attachment 1558596

you seem to contradict yourself

"Tax is what companies pay from the profits of extracting and selling that resource….. well it should be anyway…."

yet you post an image of revenue rather than profits. Why is that?

What year is the tax year you refer to and why do you refer to that year?

 

[Power Raid]

tldr,

So are you in favour of state run resourcing or not? And why?

they can't run a hospital without mistreating staff and killing children

they can't run an environmental approvals without blowing up indigenous art in caves.......but we trust them to run a whole mining operation and they can't get approvals right?

they can't run state agreements without corruption.........FYI this was barnett not mcgowan............but we trust them to run a mining operation without a independent governing body?

they can't finish build a highway (roe8), claiming there has been insufficient planning despite the program starting in the 1950s..........70 years planning for a road? imagine planning for a whole mine if the access road takes 70 years to NOT complete?

 

[Carringbush2010]

they can't run a hospital without mistreating staff and killing children

they can't run an environmental approvals without blowing up indigenous art in caves.......but we trust them to run a whole mining operation and they can't get approvals right?

they can't run state agreements without corruption.........FYI this was barnett not mcgowan............but we trust them to run a mining operation without a independent governing body?

they can't finish build a highway (roe8), claiming there has been insufficient planning despite the program starting in the 1950s..........70 years planning for a road? imagine planning for a whole mine if the access road takes 70 years to NOT complete?

Well that's a better summation, state run usually doesn't run at potential.

Privatization on the other hand is open to manipulation in favour of the individual / group.

 

[kranky al]

you seem to contradict yourself

"Tax is what companies pay from the profits of extracting and selling that resource….. well it should be anyway…."

yet you post an image of revenue rather than profits. Why is that?

What year is the tax year you refer to and why do you refer to that year?

Those poow widdle wesource companies that yeaw after year dont make any pwofits, yet out of the kindness of theiw heawts keep suppwying the world with waw matewialws.

Saints the lot of them.


St Patrick of Ireland and and St Josip of Holland to be accurate…..

Double Irish With a Dutch Sandwich: Definition and How It's Used

The double Irish with a Dutch sandwich is a tax avoidance technique that involves using Irish and Dutch subsidiaries to shift profits to tax havens.

www.investopedia.com

 

[Kwality]

Too long didn't read.

I'll 'succinct' it for you. Maybe

 

[Kwality]

Royalties are not a tax - royalties are said company compensating the citizens of that state for the use of that resource. Its a raw material.


Tax is what companies pay from the profits of extracting and selling that resource….. well it should be anyway….


View attachment 1558596

6 of one, half a dozen of the other ... even a basic understanding of company tax would help that listing above. WHY is it ZER0 ?

 

[kranky al]

6 of one, half a dozen of the other ... even a basic understanding of company tax would help that listing above. WHY is it ZER0 ?

If royalties and taxes are 6 of one and a half dozen of the other then so is the dole and the pension…..

 

[Kram]

you seem to contradict yourself

"Tax is what companies pay from the profits of extracting and selling that resource….. well it should be anyway…."

yet you post an image of revenue rather than profits. Why is that?

What year is the tax year you refer to and why do you refer to that year?

Those poow widdle wesource companies that yeaw after year dont make any pwofits, yet out of the kindness of theiw heawts keep suppwying the world with waw matewialws.

Saints the lot of them.


St Patrick of Ireland and and St Josip of Holland to be accurate…..

Double Irish With a Dutch Sandwich: Definition and How It's Used

The double Irish with a Dutch sandwich is a tax avoidance technique that involves using Irish and Dutch subsidiaries to shift profits to tax havens.

www.investopedia.com

He's right though graphics like that posted with zero detail apart from revenue are completely pointless.

 

[kranky al]

He's right though graphics like that posted with zero detail apart from revenue are completely pointless.

Anybody who doesnt think offshoring profits isnt happening on a massive scale in this country is deaf, dumb, blind and deliberately dense.

Every year the same companies - every year the same billions of dollars in income - every year oh woe is us we didnt make a profit yet again….

Amazing coincidence that all of these companies stopped making profits at the same time the irish double dutch scheme came out.

 

[Power Raid]

Anybody who doesnt think offshoring profits isnt happening on a massive scale in this country is deaf, dumb, blind and deliberately dense.

Every year the same companies - every year the same billions of dollars in income - every year oh woe is us we didnt make a profit yet again….

Amazing coincidence that all of these companies stopped making profits at the same time the irish double dutch scheme came out.

It is difficult to hold a sensible debate about a serious issue if all the counter party does is post misleading gifs and tawks like dis when challenged

 

[kranky al]

It is difficult to hold a sensible debate about a serious issue if all the counter party does is post misleading gifs and tawks like dis when challenged

Theres no such thing as a sensible debate when the biggest corporations in australia dont pay any tax any more and havnt done for years. Theres no such thing as a sensible debate when the methods they use to do this are well known.

Its not even any kind of secret, as to what sort of gratification you get by inserting your tongue into the holiest of corporate holies trying lamely to pretend that this isnt happening beggars belief. It is just demeaning to yourself.







Actual picture of power raid defending dinsda…. I mean corporate tax avoiders

 

[Power Raid]

Theres no such thing as a sensible debate when the biggest corporations in australia dont pay any tax any more and havnt done for years. Theres no such thing as a sensible debate when the methods they use to do this are well known.

Its not even any kind of secret, as to what sort of gratification you get by inserting your tongue into the holiest of corporate holies trying lamely to pretend that this isnt happening beggars belief. It is just demeaning to yourself.







Actual picture of power raid defending dinsda…. I mean corporate tax avoiders

View attachment 1559327

Do you justify being a fool because the issue is complex?

I’m on record many a time how to remedy transfer pricing and to make Australia’s tax system more competitive.

So your view on my position is baseless just like your misleading memes and gifs. Children posts gifs and memes.

FTR my position is in harmony with the last tax review and refer you to NZ, Sweden, Norway and other progressive nations which have higher consumption taxes and I also support wealth taxes.

But gifs and baseless whinging is entertaining. On that, we’ll done champ!

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

My understanding is limited, but would it be correct in saying that companies will sell offshore to a shell company or subsidiary at a loss for a tax write down and then sell it on from there at a profit which doesn't come under Australia's tax umbrella?

 

[Kwality]

If royalties and taxes are 6 of one and a half dozen of the other then so is the dole and the pension…..

Exactly.
Have I missed the point ?