Some Questions For Atheists

[Bretski]

All religious people do that. They pick the bits they want to follow or believe.

I have a question I have asked many times, and not one single religious person on this board has ever attempted to answer it:

What sense are you using when you decide which parts of the bible to follow and which to ignore or explain away as an irrelevant fable? Why do you think your way is the right way?

To be more fundie about it: What makes you think that the divine (or divinely inspired) words of the bible are there for you to pick and choose from at will, and still have cause to believe you are living according to God's will?

As I said I'm not Christian, but from my studies I would answer that like this (if i were Christian):

Firstly there is overwhelming evidence to support geological and geographical features of the earth and universe, its age etc. As well as evolution to an extent. So therefore the 6 "days" of creation cannot be true nor the earths age being 6-7000 years old. So that would lead me to think that the old testament is not literal, and heres more evidence. Jesus spoke in parrabals and stories to get his point across so that the dumb people would understand, just like we do with children. Now Jesus was God, so who's to say God didn't do the same. But why would he do such a thing? It may not seem reasonable in todays terms, but for the people back then things were different, for people to follow a scripture they needed (assuming) understanding's that relate to them, if God simply put "I made a big explosion, then sat on my ass for a few billion years then all you guys showed up" then its not as likely people would believe in God, nor follow "moral"* guidelines.

So was the old testament purely stories? I cannot say, but probability they were representative of certain things that happened skewed to make more of an impact eg: Walls of Jericho being blown down by men yelling, this is ridiculous, but it sounds good doesn't it?

And if you make the biblical stories more interesting, then people would thus read on to see all the prophesies of Jesus's life, death and resurrection, thus cementing his legitimacy when he comes. Why didn't many people believe him? well thats free will, just like the entire treatment of Jesus, free will, just like everything we do today is free will, God doesn't really do (as far as i know) a whole lot.

So why is Jesus real? The claims of prophecies before his birth are one big evidence, but how do we know this bloke wasn't just pretending by following scripture and getting some of the Jewish executors in on the act? Well thats kinda ridiculous, besides if you read Jesus's words/speeches, you'll see that he's a fabulous philosopher by todays standards. But the standards back then were very very different, people were so strict on their rules, so for an imposer/ crazy man to come along and say something as massive as "He who is without sin cast the first stone" is mind blowingly brave for a mere man. Just reading Jesus's words and actions (not miracles) are a huge convincer of his divinity alone, everything just seems to fit into place.

And your final question (and don't quote me, since Im not "one of them"), who cares what we think, or choose, or do, so long as you love Jesus apparently, and repent (genuinely) your sins.

So yeah that would be my strategical "picking and choosing" if i were christian purely based on logic, after the assumption that Jesus is legit of course, if not, throw it out the window.

*Some highly questionable, is morality evolutionary based, or religiously based? Thanks Dawkins for making me realise how little i know lol.

 

[Chief]

You've got sort of a mish-mash of "evidence tells me this" and "I just think that someone who said that must be divine". You talk about using logic, but with the assumption that Jesus was divine. I don't think logic works if you've already decided on the answer before you apply it.

 

[Bretski]

You've got sort of a mish-mash of "evidence tells me this" and "I just think that someone who said that must be divine". You talk about using logic, but with the assumption that Jesus was divine. I don't think logic works if you've already decided on the answer before you apply it.

Yeah and I understand that, but I assume the Christian gets to their belief by trusting the word of their superiors and the millions of people who believe it, and again I know this sound silly but "if that many people believe him...surely its true" We're never gonna get a good enough answer. Its just that with my bible readings specifically I keep asking myself: "How did all this happen" "How could this man come up with such gold?" Its a fantastic story, but even as an Atheist/Agnostic* I still believe a man named Jesus actually lived and died and was a great man regardless, and even the chance of 20 people of that time writing his scripts would be amazing.

So yeah I wouldn't be one to believe for emotional reasons nor scientific reasons, but for biblical scripture reasons. Then again its circular reasoning, why is the stuff in the holy new testament legit? Because of the words of Jesus. Why are the words of Jesus legit? Because of the holy new testament, and around we go.

*Yes I'll admit my slight tenancies towards agnosticism

 

[Richo83]

Well thats kinda ridiculous, besides if you read Jesus's words/speeches, you'll see that he's a fabulous philosopher by todays standards. But the standards back then were very very different, people were so strict on their rules, so for an imposer/ crazy man to come along and say something as massive as "He who is without sin cast the first stone" is mind blowingly brave for a mere man. Just reading Jesus's words and actions (not miracles) are a huge convincer of his divinity alone, everything just seems to fit into place.

Is he really a great philosopher? Doesn't measure up to his time, Plato, Cicero and Buddha (I'm being generous here figgy) surpass him in philosophical thought. Here's the thing, you "quoted" Jesus to illustrate his worth, something he never said but John made up. Funny that.

 

[raskolnikov]

Is he really a great philosopher? Doesn't measure up to his time, Plato, Cicero and Buddha (I'm being generous here figgy) surpass him in philosophical thought. Here's the thing, you "quoted" Jesus to illustrate his worth, something he never said but John made up. Funny that.

You really have no idea. Most people wouldn't even know who Plato or Cicero was. Even Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion spends a chapter admitting that the philosophy of the Bible has permeated western society.

 

[Bretski]

Is he really a great philosopher? Doesn't measure up to his time, Plato, Cicero and Buddha (I'm being generous here figgy) surpass him in philosophical thought. Here's the thing, you "quoted" Jesus to illustrate his worth, something he never said but John made up. Funny that.

Very well could be, and that was just an example, because im talking about his entire traces of speech. But lets assume these other philosophers wrote their notes down and came up with the most amazing philosophies. Jesus on the other hand seemingly said stuff off the top of his head which contradicted beliefs at that time, he didn't say stuff people agreed with nor put them in fancy articulation, but pretty much strait out gold, which changed the way a lot of society thinks.

I've read a lot of great written stuff, but i just think this man Jesus still takes the cake as far as I'm cencerned, especially considering he was a crazy man.

 

[Richo83]

You really have no idea. Most people wouldn't even know who Plato or Cicero was.

So I have no idea, yet its the others who have no clue, right.

Even Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion spends a chapter admitting that the philosophy of the Bible has permeated western society.

The god delusion is hardly a good piece of evidence. I hardly see any of Jesuit morality in our current consumerist, permissive, individualist, ego driven capitalist society. I mean do we really love our neighbour, or even god any more? Doubt it.

 

[Qsaint]

I think you'll find that it was the West's ability to put religion in a box and free institutions and thought from its suffocating grasp that allowed the West to advance in areas such as you have mentioned. While Christianity may have supplied some of the prerequisites for this advance, I don't think the word "drove" is applicable.

I think it is Freedom academic independence working class improvement fairness etc are all Christian ideals

Abolition was a Christian movement, the Unions here were basically controlled by the Catholic Church, Even the RSPCA is a Christian movement

Enlightenment may free some institutions from excesses of Religion but those instutions had to exist in the first place

 

[Bretski]

So I have no idea, yet its the others who have no clue, right.



The god delusion is hardly a good piece of evidence. I hardly see any of Jesuit morality in our current consumerist, permissive, individualist, ego driven capitalist society. I mean do we really love our neighbour, or even god any more? Doubt it.

We think its wrong to stone people, thanks jesus, and we are better at forgiving stuff, thanks jesus.

The moral Zeitgeist is always slowly changing throughout the ages (Dawkins) and religion is clearly not where we get our morality, but you cannot deny the fact that Jesus was a pretty massive changer of the moral Zeitgeist. Would it have happened eventually anyway? probably, but to come along and make such a massive sudden impact on morality does deserve a pat on the back at least.

 

[Niximus]

We think its wrong to stone people, thanks jesus, and we are better at forgiving stuff, thanks jesus.

Lol, have a look around the forums, who are the one's always calling for executions and condeming people to hell? You got it, the Xtians.

 

[Hanis]

Religion is a joke formulated by Satan to make God look bad

 

[JavaBlue]

I think it is Freedom academic independence working class improvement fairness etc are all Christian ideals

Abolition was a Christian movement, the Unions here were basically controlled by the Catholic Church, Even the RSPCA is a Christian movement

Enlightenment may free some institutions from excesses of Religion but those instutions had to exist in the first place

When I think of "the driving force behind the Western world", neither the RSPCA nor a few Micks' involvement in the Australian Union movement are things that immediately jump to mind. That a Christian may have been involved in some movement (such as the abolition of slavery) does not make it a Christian movement.

Next you will tell me that Newton's Theories are an example of Christian science because he was a Christian. Indeed Newton was a Christian but a very unorthodox one - this was kept secret until after his death, perhaps out of fear of the Christian freedom you speak of. Ditto Copernicus. There are countless others who's thoughts, theories etc were kept under wraps because of your Christian freedom and Christian academic independence.

"Fairness" a Christian concept? Jesus wept! What happens to you blokes when you get on the subject of god and religion. All the sense shown in other threads suddenly disappears.

This is your position > there is no proof of god but you choose to believe.

The breaking down of the power of the Church thru the Reformation, the Renaissance and humanist thought paved the way for the modern world.

 

[Richo83]

We think its wrong to stone people, thanks jesus, and we are better at forgiving stuff, thanks jesus.

If you know not to stone people only because of Jesus you've got problems. As for forgiving, we're not a forgiving society. The west cheered on as the west chased down Taliban and AQ suspects in the aim of killing them.

The moral Zeitgeist is always slowly changing throughout the ages (Dawkins) and religion is clearly not where we get our morality, but you cannot deny the fact that Jesus was a pretty massive changer of the moral Zeitgeist. Would it have happened eventually anyway? probably, but to come along and make such a massive sudden impact on morality does deserve a pat on the back at least.

What Jesus said had been said before, by others, and it aint perfect either. I'm glad we've moved from Jesuit morality.

 

[pocketROCKET]

All religious people do that. They pick the bits they want to follow or believe.

I have a question I have asked many times, and not one single religious person on this board has ever attempted to answer it:

What sense are you using when you decide which parts of the bible to follow and which to ignore or explain away as an irrelevant fable? Why do you think your way is the right way?

To be more fundie about it: What makes you think that the divine (or divinely inspired) words of the bible are there for you to pick and choose from at will, and still have cause to believe you are living according to God's will?

I'll have a crack at answering it just going on personal experience.

I understand that Christians are sterotypically viewed as hypocrits - I know i was one who catergorised them, but to be fair, this is an accurate view to an extent. To pick and chose what you want out of the Bible is not a correct practice to undertake (anyone can realise that) but this is something regularly done. Choosing say to judge others for their lack of faith, again a common occurence, whilst not following a life based upon the scriptures (honouring thy mother and father, no sex outside of marriage just to quote examples) is a perfect example of a hypocrite.

However, as the Bible is such a massive book, it is virtually impossible for anyone to read the entire text and follow every letter of it. Does than mean that they are not christian? Becuase they are unable to know the Bible back to front does that make them any less of a Christian?

Of course not, thats largely a reason the Jesus Christ came to earth. To rectify the missgivings that had occured before him. And thus he has enshrined two basic principals which are required for Christian living. They are contained in the Book of Mark Chapter 12 Verses 29-32. (Feel free to look them up yourself.) In these passages Jesus explains that the two most important facets of Christian living are to a) Love the lord your God with all your heart and b) to love your fellow man as you would yourself. In that very order. These are the two fundamental principals in which any true Christian will live their life by. Naturally, by loving God with all your heart you are inclined to learn as much about him as you can and thus you are lead to further study the Bible to gain a greater knowledge and understanding.

I hope I've managed to shed some insight and in some way answer your question.

I'm more than happy to discuss anything related further.

Just wondering btw, not attempting to get into an argument by any means but have any of you who have chosen to take a negative view of Christiany actually read the Bible?

Because I found personally that until I actually had a read of it myself i was very close minded about Christianity. Quite often I find unfortunately that Christians do not portray to the world an accurate and truthful view of the faith. Unfortunately, Christians commonly misrepresent Jesus.

 

[Bretski]

Lol, have a look around the forums, who are the one's always calling for executions and condeming people to hell? You got it, the Xtians.

Of course there is, we're all individuals, I'm just saying as a percentage we're better. There are more bad people today, but thats cos the population is bigger, as a whole, we're better, many who continue the old school belief system (rare group) still stone people and such, like a small group of Muslims. You can't deny that Jesus or the Jesus myth rapidly sped up morality on the social evolution direction it was already going.

 

[Richo83]

Of course there is, we're all individuals, I'm just saying as a percentage we're better. There are more bad people today, but thats cos the population is bigger, as a whole, we're better, many who continue the old school belief system (rare group) still stone people and such, like a small group of Muslims. You can't deny that Jesus or the Jesus myth rapidly sped up morality on the social evolution direction it was already going.

Society never really went anywhere until we reached about the 1500s when trade and notions such as the state and government were established, not by Jesus but by others. As these notions were enshrined in the 17th and 18th century it produced the current world system which has little to do with Jesus. Jesus is a bit time social ethicist, an ethicist we pretty much ignore. Compared to say Plato or Confucius, who helped organize the structure, laws and organization of Roman and Chinese civilization, he's average at best.

 

[fairdinkum]

Of course there is, we're all individuals, I'm just saying as a percentage we're better. There are more bad people today, but thats cos the population is bigger, as a whole, we're better, many who continue the old school belief system (rare group) still stone people and such, like a small group of Muslims. You can't deny that Jesus or the Jesus myth rapidly sped up morality on the social evolution direction it was already going.

If you concede that any of what you consider to be 'moral' today is different to what the Bible preaches, then that is it - Game over. If the book was truly the word of God then it should be 100% 'correct' (for want of better word) in regards to what is and isn't 'moral'. How can you say 'Yeah it's the word of God and He is divine' and then say '...but slavery is wrong, women should be equal, etc etc'?

It just does not make sense.

 

[Bretski]

If you concede that any of what you consider to be 'moral' today is different to what the Bible preaches, then that is it - Game over. If the book was truly the word of God then it should be 100% 'correct' (for want of better word) in regards to what is and isn't 'moral'. How can you say 'Yeah it's the word of God and He is divine' and then say '...but slavery is wrong, women should be equal, etc etc'?

It just does not make sense.

Yeah I actually asked a guy this last night, why does God see women an lesser humans and slavery, stoning etc. But apparently these were laws of man, which were different to laws of God. Its up to you how you see it, i havn't read all the bible yet so im not sure, but yeah you can make God appear to look lik e acomplete tosser if you view only his old covernents verses the new covernent. Besids Jesus told his mates that if people didn't wanna receive his word, to then leave the city and forge about it.

But yeah i use to think exactly like you did, but religion shouldn't really be put in a box and used as a be all and end all thing, but personal choice/free will still exists. Heh, the more you know, the more you find you dont know, pisses me off really lol.

 

[fairdinkum]

But yeah i use to think exactly like you did, but religion shouldn't really be put in a box and used as a be all and end all thing, but personal choice/free will still exists.

Are you kidding?

We are talking about a belief system predicated on the idea that if you don't follow the word of this divine fella, you will spend all of eternity in the fiery flames of hell. If I believed in God as Christians are apparently instructed to do, I would be spending every freakin moment of my life doing exactly as he (supposedly) instructed me to do!

 

[Bretski]

Are you kidding?

We are talking about a belief system predicated on the idea that if you don't follow the word of this divine fella, you will spend all of eternity in the fiery flames of hell. If I believed in God as Christians are apparently instructed to do, I would be spending every freakin moment of my life doing exactly as he (supposedly) instructed me to do!

Yeah I use to think that too, but my experiences with these people have lead me to think otherwise. I was like "If i were Christian, I would be way better than you guys at keeping myself in line", but i have found out that is not what their God is about. And by the way Hell isn't fire, its separation from God, the whole thing about the "lake" of fire is just like the "book" of life, or even the "7 headed" beast, or Jesus with the "sword" coming out of his mouth, revelation is just a muddle of confusing symbols. But of course we cannot know for sure.

 

[fairdinkum]

Yeah I use to think that too, but my experiences with these people have lead me to think otherwise. I was like "If i were Christian, I would be way better than you guys at keeping myself in line", but i have found out that is not what their God is about.

So God isn't about smiting people for not following his commandments?

Why, then, does the Bible tell stories of people being turned to salt?

And another thing - if we aren't supposed to take what is written in the Bible literally, where are we supposed to draw the line between what is 'real' (don't have sex outside of marriage etc) and what is 'not real' (betray me and you go to Hell)? Is it up to the individual to draw his own line, or must he follow the guiding of his Priest (or whatever)?

And by the way Hell isn't fire, its separation from God, the whole thing about the "lake" of fire is just like the "book" of life, or even the "7 headed" beast, or Jesus with the "sword" coming out of his mouth, revelation is just a muddle of confusing symbols. But of course we cannot know for sure.

So why give us the word of God in all of this symbolic gibberish? Why not just give us the truth?

 

[Bretski]

So God isn't about smiting people for not following his commandments?

Why, then, does the Bible tell stories of people being turned to salt?

And another thing - if we aren't supposed to take what is written in the Bible literally, where are we supposed to draw the line between what is 'real' (don't have sex outside of marriage etc) and what is 'not real' (betray me and you go to Hell)? Is it up to the individual to draw his own line, or must he follow the guiding of his Priest (or whatever)?




So why give us the word of God in all of this symbolic gibberish? Why not just give us the truth?

Again the arguments I always used, but a bit of understanding goes a long way, some say God is simple, in a way he is, but he is incredibally complex i think (if he were real) we shouldnt judge his/her motives because we only know a certain amount, and that goes for everything in life. Like I said, God use to have rules to get into heaven, and people would have to follow his old covernent to get into heaven, and he made Jesus change all that by abolishing all the rules, except for one, the new covenent which is faith in Jesus, thats it, some think there is more, but basically if you genuinely believe in jesus you'll be sorry for your sins (to which you don't get stoned for). Aparrenlt Gods stance on all sins is still exactly the same as it use to be, but the punishments are different, things change society moves forward... thats me putting it in simple terms, I like a lot of us, still have a lot to learn.

Heres another one in which I questioned last night: Why did God make Joshua brutally kill every man woman and child in Jericho? if he wanted to build the Israli empire, why did he just take them away like he did with Enoch? Answer: Because God was working with the times, back then empires are built by one group taking over the other, and thats what God was going along with. (lol, sorry that was badly articulated, so don't quote me)

Its funny how so much that doesn't make sense actually does, just like the theory of wormholes to an extent.

I still think I dont have the ability to comprehend all of it and thus believe in a God, but who knows I could be underestimating.

 

[fairdinkum]

[long passage]

You really haven't even begun to answer my questions here.

Heres another one in which I questioned last night: Why did God make Joshua brutally kill every man woman and child in Jericho? if he wanted to build the Israli empire, why did he just take them away like he did with Enoch? Answer: Because God was working with the times, back then empires are built by one group taking over the other, and thats what God was going along with. (lol, sorry that was badly articulated, so don't quote me)

That is one of the worst explanations for the apparent immorality in the Bible I have ever heard.

Its funny how so much that doesn't make sense actually does

Erm, no - it doesn't make sense.

Thanks for trying though, I appreciate the effort. KC07's absence and lack of attempt to answer these questions is rather conspicuous, it must be said.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Heres another one in which I questioned last night: Why did God make Joshua brutally kill every man woman and child in Jericho? if he wanted to build the Israli empire, why did he just take them away like he did with Enoch? Answer: Because God was working with the times, back then empires are built by one group taking over the other, and thats what God was going along with. (lol, sorry that was badly articulated, so don't quote me)

I can see God in the stand at the International War Crimes Tribunal in the Hague, shrugging his shoulders and saying 'Well, it was the IN thing at the time!'

Sorry mate, just couldn't let that one go...

 

[fairdinkum]

I can see God in the stand at the International War Crimes Tribunal in the Hague, shrugging his shoulders and saying 'Well, it was the IN thing at the time!'

Some of your finest, GS