Some Questions For Atheists

[BomberGal]

Well, from previous posts, it doesn't sound like you're a true atheist either. If I genuinely knew there was no god, I would be out and proud about being an atheist. However, I don't feel I can be as certain as that.

I don't think you can compare beliefs about god to the tooth fairy, either. Everyone knows, without a shadow of a doubt, that the tooth fairy is your mum or dad replacing a lost tooth with a coin. There's no ifs or buts. However, I don't feel that you can say there is a god, or conversely, there is no god. So I really don't understand how the two can be compared.

I used the word hypocritical because I feel the tone of the discussion here has been decidedly anti-religion, often on the basis of the dogmatism of traditional faiths. On this basis, I object when people who criticise then exhibit similar dogmatism.

Agnosticism is a fair enough belief. Saying that agnostics are just atheists who don't have the guts to admit it isn't really true.

So you just called me "not a real atheist" and a "dogmatic atheist" in the same post. Nice.

You don't know there isn't a real tooth fairy out there.

You also need to understand that very few atheists will ever state they "know" there is no god. Including me. Atheists just don't believe.

 

[BomberGal]

Atheism is different. Atheists have the conviction to say "there is no god". I say I don't know whether there's no god. I'm not convinced there is, but then again, I'm not convinced there's not.

I choose not to believe the propositions of everyone else. I don't know there's no god, but I sure as hell don't believe there is just because everyone tells me so.

The problem is, I shouldn't have to be called "extremist" just because I choose not to believe these things. This is the point of the FSM. Unless you call yourself an agnostic with regards to the FSM, then aren't you just as dogmatic?

 

[medusala]

I'd just call you a non-religious person. Unless you take the position of a disbelief in god, or being godless (without god) you aren't an atheist. I am both which is why I classify myself as atheist, I believe that and live as there is no god. However I do recognize the possibility of god, but I have developed a position that if something can't be proven, like anything else you should take your previous position of disbelief.

Am I right to take it you believe you can be agnostic and atheist but not agnostic and Christian?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I'd just call you a non-religious person. Unless you take the position of a disbelief in god, or being godless (without god) you aren't an atheist. I am both which is why I classify myself as atheist, I believe that and live as there is no god. However I do recognize the possibility of god, but I have developed a position that if something can't be proven, like anything else you should take your previous position of disbelief.

You definitely aren't an atheist, according to what I've always known. To me, an atheist is an absolutist - there IS no deity. The religious believer is an absolutist - there IS a deity. Agnostics like you and me Richo - we're the fence-sitters. A deity has no role in our lives, but we can't either rule their existence in or out.

Non-practicing believers still believe, so they still fall into the 'IS' crowd. My dad is a lapsed Catholic - he believes in a deity, but has no use for what he calls the 'man-made structure' that is the Catholic Church. He still shares the faith without adhering to the rituals and sacraments and the like. He still says there IS a deity, so he's not actually on the fence.

 

[Richo83]

Am I right to take it you believe you can be agnostic and atheist but not agnostic and Christian?

Christianity isn't about believing in god, it's about knowing and loving your god. There's a reason why the Christian god is differentiated from Spinoza's god, or the Hindu's gods; because it IS different. There is an implication that god is monotheist.

I mean atheism makes no implication on god, just that there is none. Christianity does. It sees god and sees god in a certain light, certain form. Christians don't see god as a multiple entity which some are good, some are evil, some are male female and see over certain aspects of the universe like Hindus and greek religions do.

 

[Richo83]

You definitely aren't an atheist, according to what I've always known. To me, an atheist is an absolutist - there IS no deity. The religious believer is an absolutist - there IS a deity. Agnostics like you and me Richo - we're the fence-sitters. A deity has no role in our lives, but we can't either rule their existence in or out.

Bullcrap, you need to realize that there is a difference between weak and strong atheism. And there is agnostic atheism. I can't say absolutely that there is no force or spirit, but I don't think there is. All atheism is is a disbelief in god. Check. It is not an absolute assurance that there is no god. That is strong atheism.

I mean what is atheism? As I said before, it's the disbelief in god. I am that. Ergo I am an atheist. You can disbelieve that there is extraterrestrial life, an atheist of aliens, yet still say that you don't absolutely know though that there is no alien life. Effectively you are an agnostic atheist, which is what I am. I mean, if that is impossible, why is it then used as a term?

Non-practicing believers still believe, so they still fall into the 'IS' crowd. My dad is a lapsed Catholic - he believes in a deity, but has no use for what he calls the 'man-made structure' that is the Catholic Church. He still shares the faith without adhering to the rituals and sacraments and the like. He still says there IS a deity, so he's not actually on the fence.

That's nice.

 

[medusala]

I mean atheism makes no implication on god, just that there is none. Christianity does.

if you can be agnostic and atheist why cant you be agnostic and christian?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I mean atheism makes no implication on god, just that there is none. Christianity does. It sees god and sees god in a certain light, certain form. Christians don't see god as a multiple entity which some are good, some are evil, some are male female and see over certain aspects of the universe like Hindus and greek religions do.

Atheism makes no implication on the existence of 'good' and 'evil', apart from as very human choices. Christians may not see multiple good and evil deities, but to them there is a God and a Devil, which ably represent the good and the bad in the world. Other religions see these two aspects represented by different forms and sexes but they all serve roughly the same purposes - our behaviour in this life determines our treatment in the next.

We aren't in that group Richo. Because atheism is a complete denial of any higher power or afterlife, if you admit to not being able to rule out the possibity then you ARE an agnostic, just like I am. Agnostic atheism dosen't exist because they are mutually exclusive terms.

There's a big difference between "NO" and "MAYBE".

 

[medusala]

Bullcrap, you need to realize that there is a difference between weak and strong atheism. And there is agnostic atheism.

by the same logic why cant you swap atheism for Christianity in the above?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

if you can be agnostic and atheist why cant you be agnostic and christian?

Because even a non church-going Christian still has faith. Faith is like the 'membership card' of religion. Even if you don't use it, it's still there. Agnosticism is an absence of faith without the absolute ruling-out of it. Agnosticism is the grey area between the 'IS' and 'ISN'T' camps.

 

[BomberGal]

You definitely aren't an atheist, according to what I've always known. To me, an atheist is an absolutist - there IS no deity. The religious believer is an absolutist - there IS a deity. Agnostics like you and me Richo - we're the fence-sitters. A deity has no role in our lives, but we can't either rule their existence in or out.

Non-practicing believers still believe, so they still fall into the 'IS' crowd. My dad is a lapsed Catholic - he believes in a deity, but has no use for what he calls the 'man-made structure' that is the Catholic Church. He still shares the faith without adhering to the rituals and sacraments and the like. He still says there IS a deity, so he's not actually on the fence.

So all religious people are extremists, too?

 

[skilts]

To be forced into the position of painting oneself as an atheist or agnostic is to give over the control of the argument to people who'll never share your view. I wonder on what basis anyone with a brain would do this. As always, the agnostics and the atheists are letting the christians dictate the terms of reference for the debate.

Why would anybody objectify themselves, and their lives, to the extent that they are left with no option but to dispose of their lived selves, for the sake of being able to describe their existence in a pithy phrase or word (atheist/agnostic/christian/bhuddist)?

Sorry, my life consists of more than this reductionist crap. Let's have a real debate, without the self-imposed name-calling.

Let's ask a big question: What is the nature of your being? Not an objectified being whose ideas of creation depends on someone else, or some book. How has life been for you? How do you see it in the future? Do you project into those future encounters with other humans how you will conduct your life, or do you fly by the seat of your pants? Are you able to act morally and ethically in any given moment, as a result of the preparation you've made to this stage of your life? Conversely, do you not give a shit?

What is it like to be a person who makes an ethical decision, in the moment before reflection?

 

[BomberGal]

To be forced into the position of painting oneself as an atheist or agnostic is to give over the control of the argument to people who'll never share your view. I wonder on what basis anyone with a brain would do this. As always, the agnostics and the atheists are letting the christians dictate the terms of reference for the debate.

This is one of the best things I've read here, and perfectly puts into words what I've been unable to express.

 

[medusala]

To be forced into the position of painting oneself as an atheist or agnostic is to give over the control of the argument to people who'll never share your view.

very succint skilts.

This is my argument with Richo and his box ticking/pigeonholing of beliefs into neat categories.

 

[Richo83]

very succint skilts.

This is my argument with Richo and his box ticking/pigeonholing of beliefs into neat categories.

Med you don't have an argument. I'm not buying this po mo s*** where Christianity is anything you think it is.

by the same logic why cant you swap atheism for Christianity in the above?

Read my posts for once.

 

[medusala]

I'm not buying this po mo s*** where Christianity is anything you think it is.

As I have shown I am hardly out of step with the Anglican flock

Read my posts for once.

I have. They displaying a deep lack of logic and consistency re your thoughts on agnosticism, atheism and Christianity

 

[Chief]

if you can be agnostic and atheist why cant you be agnostic and christian?

Coz there ain't no book official mystical book on non-Christianity.

 

[Richo83]

Atheism makes no implication on the existence of 'good' and 'evil', apart from as very human choices. Christians may not see multiple good and evil deities, but to them there is a God and a Devil, which ably represent the good and the bad in the world. Other religions see these two aspects represented by different forms and sexes but they all serve roughly the same purposes - our behaviour in this life determines our treatment in the next.

Yes but you're going off in a tangent here.

We aren't in that group Richo. Because atheism is a complete denial of any higher power or afterlife, if you admit to not being able to rule out the possibity then you ARE an agnostic, just like I am. Agnostic atheism dosen't exist because they are mutually exclusive terms.

There's a big difference between "NO" and "MAYBE".[/QUOTE]

Do I disbelieve in god? Yes. Check. How many times do I have to tell you, I am an atheist. I fufill the profile buddy. When someone asks me, do you think god exists, I say no. Atheism.

And as for mutually exclusive? Bullcrap! It's like saying you can't be a agnostic theist, whatever! Please study what the two terms are before commenting further. I've already had to show med about religion too many times, I don't need another telling me that agnostic atheism is impossible.

 

[Richo83]

As I have shown I am hardly out of step with the Anglican flock




I have. They displaying a deep lack of logic and consistency re your thoughts on agnosticism, atheism and Christianity

Strange that they display this yet you've offered nothing in response, only short line answers like this. Weak atheism and Christianity are different in their levels of belief/disbelief in god. Christians give actions to god, say that god gives us a soul, god listens to prayers, that god should be loved etc. Atheists don't make any assertions on god but that they disbelieve in god.

 

[Chief]

To be forced into the position of painting oneself as an atheist or agnostic is to give over the control of the argument to people who'll never share your view.

Who forces?

 

[medusala]

And as for mutually exclusive? Bullcrap! It's like saying you can't be a agnostic theist, whatever! Please study what the two terms are before commenting further. I've already had to show med about religion too many times, I don't need another telling me that agnostic atheism is impossible.

now you are saying you can be an agnostic theist.

I have never disagreed with this.

you are very confused.

 

[Contra Mundum]

now you are saying you can be an agnostic theist.

I have never disagreed with this.

you are very confused.

Meds I know your engaging in these threads for sport. I am telling you as a person of some intelligence run away now. Nothing is worse to claims of intellectual clarity on these threads than the foul taint of theism

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

So all religious people are extremists, too?

Extremist is the wrong word to use - they're absolutist. YES, they believe in a deity. That's their position, so it's an absolute one.

Richo, I'm big enough to admit I am wrong for trying to pidgeonhole you. I argue from what I know of life, and how the people around me live theirs. Which is why I used my father as an example a few posts back - I know you were thrilled to read it. Seriously though, I can accept his situation is not your own - and that nobody knows your own situation better than you yourself.

I've always thought of the situation in absolutist terms - you either do, don't, or can't decide on either. You told me that there's more to it than that - agnostic theism, which I've not really come across as a term before. It seems to be the 'I don't believe in God, but I'm afraid of him' point of view, which I really can't understand. Hedging bets?

 

[skilts]

Who forces?

Those who control the agenda - the theists. Those other than theists really couldn't care less.

 

[medusala]

Meds I know your engaging in these threads for sport. I am telling you as a person of some intelligence run away now. Nothing is worse to claims of intellectual clarity on these threads than the foul taint of theism

CM, I could just about be convinced to tick the atheist box if it wasnt for the unsufferably smug attitude of so many atheists who act like a first year arts student proclaiming over a midori and lemonade that they have singlehandedly solved the meaning of life.