Spin bowling in test cricket

[Jimthegreat]

Sub-continent spinners aren't great outside of Asia. Their pitches require almost a different type of technique, especially in India, suited to the sub-continent but not outside. Indian pitches seem different again to other sub-continent pitches. By the same token quite a few non-Asian bowlers struggle when they go to subcontinent. Hence why I would've taken Fawad Ahmed to Bangladesh, which was aborted anyway, and not to England. Ashwin's doing well on doctored, diabolical turners at home but can be a pie chucker away.

 

[Damon_3388]

Another interesting question, are spinners of the '90s-early 2000s, outside of Warne and Murali, really much better (if at all) than spinners today? It seems like people's view of the previous era tends to get distorted by a once-in-a-generation greats.

 

[frankrizzo]

We are also judging young players half way through their careers against players who have finished.

kumble is a good example, half way through his career i guess he was seen as a bowler who needed a rank turner to be a threat but he did improve away from india as his career went on and for all we know ashwin will learn and be a much better bowler outside asia by the time he calls it a day.

 

[Damon_3388]

We are also judging young players half way through their careers against players who have finished.

kumble is a good example, half way through his career i guess he was seen as a bowler who needed a rank turner to be a threat but he did improve away from india as his career went on and for all we know ashwin will learn and be a much better bowler outside asia by the time he calls it a day.

Especially when you consider that spinners (barring injury or chucking suspensions) can easily play until 36-37 years of age, guys like Shah, Ashwin, Lyon, etc. could have another 6-8 years of international cricket left in them.

 

[Demosthenes]

Most spinners only start to put it together when they hit their late 20s or early 30s. Most start out either dangerous or economical and take time to learn. Probably because bowling economical wrist spin or dangerous wrist spin takes a lot of learning.

I honestly think that finger spin is an underutilised artform outside the subcontinent, with everyone automatically opting for three seamers. Guys who master drift and dip and skid are dangerous on any surface - Vettori's effectiveness often depended very little on the conduciveness of the pitch to turn. I'd like to see teams play 2 spinners more often - although I guess that's a bit dependent on having quality players, which a lot of countries don't.

 

[frankrizzo]

Swann is a good example of what an offie can achieve after the age of 30, when he was lyons age he was still 18 months away from even making his test debut.

 

[Natho]

Nathan Lyon has proven alot of people wrong. His improvement has been huge.

 

[Hellgood]

Another interesting question, are spinners of the '90s-early 2000s, outside of Warne and Murali, really much better (if at all) than spinners today? It seems like people's view of the previous era tends to get distorted by a once-in-a-generation greats.

Fair point.

But I'd say it's wrong to ignore Kumble from that era, he's probably got the current crop covered comfortably (I have loved watching Yasir, but does need a bit of exposure out of the UAE). Vettori can be included as a guy from those years too - I would rate him on par with Herath. There were a couple of bloody good Pakistani's going around at the time as well - the Mushtaq's in Saqlain and Ahmed.

 

[Spitta Andretti]

Another interesting question, are spinners of the '90s-early 2000s, outside of Warne and Murali, really much better (if at all) than spinners today? It seems like people's view of the previous era tends to get distorted by a once-in-a-generation greats.

From that list I would say the genuine world class bowlers, after the top two, would be Saqlain, Kumble, Mushtaq Ahmed, MacGill, and Kaneria. Definitely there was far more depth and quality in leg spin than there is today.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

mishits go for six these days which doesn't help spinners.

but even a tool like Swann did well for a couple of years. i don't think its a dead art i just think its alot harder then fast bowling. Most of the time you are born with talent to bowl quick. Spin you need talent AND practice.

And more to the point, MATCH practice. Spinners need plenty of 4 or 5 day cricket in which they can settle into a long spell, but what does the Australian cricket summer serve up to them for the next couple of months? Sloggers with tree trunk bats smashing them for 6 on truncated grounds as they settle into a marathon 4 spell ... or maybe 2 spells of 2 overs.

Yep, spin bowling is being murdered by administrators who care more about $$$$$ than the welfare of the game.

 

[Slax]

Spin will survive as it wins test matches just as often as pace does.

 

[eth-dog]

Spin will survive as it wins test matches just as often as pace does.

The BCCI will make it survive.

 

[Slax]

The BCCI will make it survive.

That and the fact if you purely bowl pace you will only get through 80 overs in a day's play.

Spin bowling is more of an art form than pace bowling.

 

[big_e]

lyon has also been durable and should go on to take 300+ test wickets.

he has now played 50 of 54 since debut (missed out one year in perth [they went for 4 quicks], missed one in india in favour of doherty prior to homeworkgate, and missed 2 in favour of agar).

Don't these seem like strange decisions now, particularly the Agar one.

 

[western royboy]

Don't these seem like strange decisions now, particularly the Agar one.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing - Lyon is a much more confident player than he was and the team is much more settled.

 

[Borisdog]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing - Lyon is a much more confident player than he was and the team is much more settled.

Yep, and here's hoping we're lucky enough to have a competent left arm quick in the side for as long as Lyon is. He's a massively better bowler when he remembers what footmarks are for and when he has a captain that reminds him that he's likely to get a wicket or two if he keeps the ball in 'em.

 

[Spitta Andretti]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing - Lyon is a much more confident player than he was and the team is much more settled.

Nobody needs hindsight to know that Xavier Doherty is a ****ing piechucker!

 

[Spitta Andretti]

Last 10 years

Alright, so there's no Warne/Murali type bowlers any longer but the list here shows that spinners have been taking plenty of wickets over the past decade. Can't say its dying in test cricket.

 

[Damon_3388]

From that list I would say the genuine world class bowlers, after the top two, would be Saqlain, Kumble, Mushtaq Ahmed, MacGill, and Kaneria. Definitely there was far more depth and quality in leg spin than there is today.

Last 10 years

Alright, so there's no Warne/Murali type bowlers any longer but the list here shows that spinners have been taking plenty of wickets over the past decade. Can't say its dying in test cricket.

I know he was extremely economical, and had to shoulder a very heavy workload and wear many different hats (strike bowler, container, all-rounder, captain) for a long time in all formats, but Vettori's strike rate stands out like dog's balls compared to his contemporaries.

By the numbers, I feel like Paul Adams was criminally underrated and underplayed by South Africa.

I feel like Herath is overrated by some, too. Yeah, he's good, but he's not light years ahead of his contemporaries. His wicket total is as much due to the volume of overs he bowls (averages more than 26 overs bowled per innings, with 51 of his 67 Tests coming in favourable Asian conditions) as his strike rate. Could put Ajmal in a similar boat, too, with the added wrinkle of being labelled a chucker.

 

[The_Reaper]

I know he was extremely economical, and had to shoulder a very heavy workload and wear many different hats (strike bowler, container, all-rounder, captain) for a long time in all formats, but Vettori's strike rate stands out like dog's balls compared to his contemporaries.

By the numbers, I feel like Paul Adams was criminally underrated and underplayed by South Africa.

I feel like Herath is overrated by some, too. Yeah, he's good, but he's not light years ahead of his contemporaries. His wicket total is as much due to the volume of overs he bowls (averages more than 26 overs bowled per innings, with 51 of his 67 Tests coming in favourable Asian conditions) as his strike rate. Could put Ajmal in a similar boat, too, with the added wrinkle of being labelled a chucker.

I also reckon Ashwin is underrated due to struggling on a few overseas tours very early in his career.

 

[Damon_3388]

I also reckon Ashwin is underrated due to struggling on a few overseas tours very early in his career.

In general, I think people over-normalise good away performance, if that makes sense, and under-appreciate how conditions affect all bowlers, home and away. They act like everyone performs well away, and only spuds don't. It's often only the best and the greatest that perform just as well or better away than they do at home, in all conditions, and that's what makes them the best and the greatest.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

And more to the point, MATCH practice. Spinners need plenty of 4 or 5 day cricket in which they can settle into a long spell, but what does the Australian cricket summer serve up to them for the next couple of months? Sloggers with tree trunk bats smashing them for 6 on truncated grounds as they settle into a marathon 4 spell ... or maybe 2 spells of 2 overs.

Yep, spin bowling is being murdered by administrators who care more about $$$$$ than the welfare of the game.

There are the same number of Shield games now as there have ever been.

 

[Mr Commissioner]

Watched WA's premier spinner today - future is bleak.

 

[Hellgood]

Watched WA's premier spinner today - future is bleak.

Oh bullshit.

Agar is solid and still ridiculously young.

Have played against and watched Kyle Gardiner's career develop with interest as well and have little doubt he'll play domestic cricket at some stage.

 

[Carbine Chaos]

Agar will end up a batting all-rounder anyway. His bowling is fine for that role.