Suicide

[blackcat]

Find it hard to believe life can get to that point

strikethru code

 

[_Christoh_]

but, i dont think poseidon's opinion hurts if you are successful.

irony is, it actually causes more grief to the suicide's family. in terms of its logic and argument, its a fail.

The ramifications on loved ones is huge, and can also become a pre cursor to younger family member also looking at it becoming an option if life isnt going so well for them. It is one of the key causal factors in assessing if someone is at risk of suicide if they have a family member who did end their own life. Suicide runs in families.

Suicide is something I refrain from passing judgement on. You never know their full story, a gauge on their ability to cope and the understanding of what getting through each and every day can be like for them.

When you see the list of risk factors that contribute to suicide and then know that a high percentage of those who do follow through had multiple factors in play simultaneously over a sustained period of time then you learn to appreciate that life can be very very tough for some people who come to the end of their resources of being able to cope.

Having said that I also believe with help and support that many situations can be worked through but alot of the time the help and support comes down to $'s and resources and the persons willingness to seek them out.

 

[Outshined]

Lots of interesting discussion here. Just to add my two cents, the interesting thing about anti-depressants such as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs or Prozac for example), is that the original mechanism through which they were proposed to work is the subject of intense research/scrutiny. In very simple terms, drugs like Prozac increase the "availability" of serotonin (a neurotransmitter which causes elevated mood in higher concentrations) in the synaptic cleft by, as the name would suggest, reducing the uptake of the neurotransmitter molecules back into the synapse, leading to the aforementioned higher concentrations acting upon our chemical neuronal signalling.

This works in many cases, but studies have shown that it takes upwards of a month for there to be any noticeable difference in brain serotonin levels, whereas people will typically experience more immediate relief upon their first course of medication. This obviously presents questions over the mechanisms of their efficacy (and it should be noted that they aren't a 100% sure fire "cure"). Someone with a more pharmacological background will probably be able to provide further info on the latest developments in anti-depressant research, as I'm certainly no expert.

From experience/teaching, new wave SSRIs are typically the first port of call, and are good for those who are critically depressed, but less so for milder forms of depression. Drugs can be an excellent treatment source, but fail to address any personal and cognitive factors that often underlie depressive episodes that present an underlying vulnerability to relapse. My suggestion would be to keep an open mind to both psychopharmacology and psychotherapy. Psychiatrists and psychologists alike are great outlets for finding help, and remember that this help is always available.

 

[sabre_ac]

Suicide is absolutely tragic for those who have died and those who are left behind, I'll never buy into the belief it's a selfish act. Anyone who holds this view genuinely has a rather warped view on things, they normally see things in absolutes. Quite often these miss-informed individuals live their life in quite shallow fish ponds without any exposure to the wider community or world.

 

[blackcat]

interesting language^

 

[blackcat]

Lots of interesting discussion here. Just to add my two cents, the interesting thing about anti-depressants such as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs or Prozac for example), is that the original mechanism through which they were proposed to work is the subject of intense research/scrutiny. In very simple terms, drugs like Prozac increase the "availability" of serotonin (a neurotransmitter which causes elevated mood in higher concentrations) in the synaptic cleft by, as the name would suggest, reducing the uptake of the neurotransmitter molecules back into the synapse, leading to the aforementioned higher concentrations acting upon our chemical neuronal signalling.

This works in many cases, but studies have shown that it takes upwards of a month for there to be any noticeable difference in brain serotonin levels, whereas people will typically experience more immediate relief upon their first course of medication. This obviously presents questions over the mechanisms of their efficacy (and it should be noted that they aren't a 100% sure fire "cure"). Someone with a more pharmacological background will probably be able to provide further info on the latest developments in anti-depressant research, as I'm certainly no expert.

From experience/teaching, new wave SSRIs are typically the first port of call, and are good for those who are critically depressed, but less so for milder forms of depression. Drugs can be an excellent treatment source, but fail to address any personal and cognitive factors that often underlie depressive episodes that present an underlying vulnerability to relapse. My suggestion would be to keep an open mind to both psychopharmacology and psychotherapy. Psychiatrists and psychologists alike are great outlets for finding help, and remember that this help is always available.

prozac longer half life than its successors in ssri family.
i thought the recent material on theory surrounding ssri is that the reverse engineering theory of the seratonin is no longer the influential element. then again i would only have come across it from a second source like the medical journalist on abc.(who is a doc tho)

 

[Outshined]

prozac longer half life than its successors in ssri family.
i thought the recent material on theory surrounding ssri is that the reverse engineering theory of the seratonin is no longer the influential element. then again i would only have come across it from a second source like the medical journalist on abc.(who is a doc tho)

Yeh in all honesty there is so much being done on the biological underpinnings of depression that it's hard to separate the wood from the trees. Like I said, you may well be right in that the prevailing theory of is mechanism of action has shifted, but it's my understanding that the overall monoamine hypothesis (i.e. chemical disruptions as the biological core) remains. This isn't exclusive to just serotonin too, norepinephrine and dopamine have also been implicated, hence the use of other drugs like tricyclic anti-depressants and MOA inhibitors.

Anyway, it's not my intention to beat up on anti-depressants, they can be a life saver, just to highlight the fact that there are a multitude of potential treatment options available. Unfortunately with depression, sometimes it isn't just a matter of popping a pill and feeling better for the rest of your life.

 

[IceNine]

Yeh in all honesty there is so much being done on the biological underpinnings of depression that it's hard to separate the wood from the trees. Like I said, you may well be right in that the prevailing theory of is mechanism of action has shifted, but it's my understanding that the overall monoamine hypothesis (i.e. chemical disruptions as the biological core) remains. This isn't exclusive to just serotonin too, norepinephrine and dopamine have also been implicated, hence the use of other drugs like tricyclic anti-depressants and MOA inhibitors.

The monoamine theory is being increasingly recognised as an insufficient explanation of depression. The modern neuroscience highlights the importance of neuroplasticity, and in particular signal transduction pathways and growth mediators like brain-derived neurotrophic factor. The alteration in monoamine saturation and receptor density may be an up-stream effect, although this remains unclear.

I would like to echo the importance of seeking help if you need it. It is available, and you may find something that works for you. It could be psychotherapy, CBT, medication, some other form of therapy or a combination, the fact is these methods have worked in the past on people in similar conditions.

 

[skilts]

Suicide is absolutely tragic for those who have died

How do we know this?

 

[skilts]

You live once, make the most of it.

That's how I see it, suicide is a disturbing and disgusting thing.

Suicide is one method of avoiding being disturbed and disgusted.

 

[_Christoh_]

Research I read on neuroplasty is fascinating. Whilst I grasp the basics of what I read I dont fully appreciate all of the medical terms and significance of the results so far.

The jist of it is that the long held belief that the mind functions as a direct result of the physical make up of the brain is being challenged. The established belief is that the mind has no influence over the brain and can not affect it in any way and that the mind is a product of a persons brain.

Neuroplasty is challenging that belief and that the mind can in fact alter the brain and can change its physical structures or neural structures/connections. Meditation is proving to be useful in creating new neural pathways within the brain that can help people with mood disorders, depression and even habitual behaviours like self harming. Its proving to be useful for some stroke victims in assisting them to regain functionality that was previously considered permanently lost. There are various techniques that can help create new pathways in the brain too depending on what function is needed.

I should read more about.

 

[skilts]

I'm sure that this uncertainty about the efficacy of various drugs will be sorted out well before we run out of human guinea pigs to test them on. It's all in the fine-tuning.

 

[jpkennedy]

That's rubbish.

a friend of mine recently committed suicide and i'm heartbroken about how much pain she was in and how long she held on for even though she was suffering so much. This life was a living hell for her and not in a "i'm depressed" kind of way. It was torture. Anyone insisting someone continue to live through that because they don't want to say goodbye or confront their own mortality is the true selfish one.

I'm so sorry to hear about your friend Nicky

 

[_Christoh_]

I'm sure that this uncertainty about the efficacy of various drugs will be sorted out well before we run out of human guinea pigs to test them on. It's all in the fine-tuning.

What shocks me about some medications is that when a patient comes off of medication they can often end up feeling worse than they did before they went on them. Lithium is a prime example of this.

 

[IceNine]

Research I read on neuroplasty is fascinating. Whilst I grasp the basics of what I read I dont fully appreciate all of the medical terms and significance of the results so far.

The jist of it is that the long held belief that the mind functions as a direct result of the physical make up of the brain is being challenged. The established belief is that the mind has no influence over the brain and can not affect it in any way and that the mind is a product of a persons brain.

Neuroplasty is challenging that belief and that the mind can in fact alter the brain and can change its physical structures or neural structures/connections. Meditation is proving to be useful in creating new neural pathways within the brain that can help people with mood disorders, depression and even habitual behaviours like self harming. Its proving to be useful for some stroke victims in assisting them to regain functionality that was previously considered permanently lost. There are various techniques that can help create new pathways in the brain too depending on what function is needed.

I should read more about.

This dichotomy between the mind and the brain is a false one, in my opinion. The brain can alter itself; this is remarkable enough.

I'm sure that this uncertainty about the efficacy of various drugs will be sorted out well before we run out of human guinea pigs to test them on. It's all in the fine-tuning.

And here lies a problem: these new treatments are developed from research conducted on rats, necessarily. I'd like to think the human mind is unique in it's complexity (narcissism?) and hence it's reaction to treatment. This, of course, limits the rate of development of novel and effective treatments.

 

[nicky]

I'm so sorry to hear about your friend Nicky

Thankyou darling.

The funeral was yesterday. Everyone acknowledged the truth in their speeches which was good, no-one blamed her, they were like "it's over, nothing can hurt you anymore".

I've never known anyone to suicide and hopefully this is the first and last experience. I feel a mixture of, deep regret, that i didn't..... hug her for longer the last time i saw her and of course make sure all avenues on escaping her tormented life had been exhausted; sorrow, that someone as special as her was going through that kind of hell and relief, that the hell is over for her.

The hard part for me is saying goodbye because I find it difficult to say goodbye to people i meet on holiday.

 

[Run n Spread]

My $.02.

Fact is there are conflicting messages when it comes to suicide. On the one hand people are told talking about it is great, let it all out, tell someone etc. On the other hand there is no reporting in the media, any mention of suicide is censored out. So which is it?

I'm not overly convinced talking about it with all and sundry is that much of a positive. A significant number of people will judge it as been selfish, uncaring etc. Plus people close to the deceased person will view it as a form of backhanded insult i.e. Don't you love those close to you enough to stay around. An already fragile person does not need to be judged but shown a form of understanding and compassion if you will. Also by being that direct with family members it places a massive strain on them and contrary to popular opinion they are not the best people to help. All loved ones can really do is support each other and be there for one another.

So that leaves professional help. But where does a suicidal person turn? Psychological therapy is expensive and may not always work. What happens if the professional is having a bad day or the person feeling suicidal is not believed. What then? Most crisis lines are overwhelmed and can't treat everyone.

Personally I think there needs to be a health department, in a hospital or treatment centre similar to how there are certain specialisations dedicated to suicide prevention. These people would need to be selected carefully and sworn to the strictest of confidence. People in that state need professional care and ongoing support. An hour a week on a psychologists couch or sneers of how selfish they are won't cut it.
The human mind, body and emotions are hardwired for survival. For whatever reason in some people that gets switched off and a self destruction impulse takes over. I believe only people with training, understanding and a specific attitude are equipped to deal with sort of problem. A family member/friend would likely freak out and unfortunately are not always in the best position to deal with as delicate a situation.

 

[blackcat]

I would like to echo the importance of seeking help if you need it. It is available, and you may find something that works for you. It could be psychotherapy, CBT, medication, some other form of therapy or a combination, the fact is these methods have worked in the past on people in similar conditions.

still doing ECT too, even tho it has got a bad name in popular press. it immediately rouses connotations of kew cottages and early C20 sanitoria (think thats the plural of sanitorium) tho i dont think it is a treatment for long-term patients

 

[Sydney Bloods]

I know it's slack and probably compounds the issue but I've always viewed suicide as weakness of character, Cowardly.

 

[IceNine]

still doing ECT too, even tho it has got a bad name in popular press. it immediately rouses connotations of kew cottages and early C20 sanitoria (think thats the plural of sanitorium) tho i dont think it is a treatment for long-term patients

Ken Kesey has a bit to answer for, ECT actually has a very good side-effect profile, comparatively

 

[mantis]

Someone close to me husband's hung himself, because they were having marital problems. There is no way any man would do that if they weren't suffering depression. While I was angry that his suicide badly affected my friend, I still feel sorry for him that he thought death was the only solution.

 

[sabre_ac]

How do we know this?

How do we know what? That the grief associated with suicide for those killing themselves/attemping to and those left behind is painful and immense? I think it's pretty obvious.

What are you chasing here? A scientific answer?

 

[blackcat]

Ken Kesey has a bit to answer for, ECT actually has a very good side-effect profile, comparatively

but not a regimen for long term depressives, psychoanalysis/psychotherapthy, CBT and pharmaceuticals, then again, i am a layperson

What shocks me about some medications is that when a patient comes off of medication they can often end up feeling worse than they did before they went on them. Lithium is a prime example of this.

is a danger to go cold turkey on ssri's without a period stepping down concentration

How do we know what? That the grief associated with suicide for those killing themselves/attemping to and those left behind is painful and immense? I think it's pretty obvious.

What are you chasing here? A scientific answer?

Skilts is just pointing out the flaw in the logic , aint a big believer in jung and freud

 

[skilts]

How do we know what? That the grief associated with suicide for those killing themselves/attemping to and those left behind is painful and immense? I think it's pretty obvious.

What are you chasing here? A scientific answer?

With whom among the dead have you spoken, allowing you to come to the conclusion that the experience was "absolutely tragic for those who have died"?

 

[sabre_ac]

With whom among the dead have you spoken, allowing you to come to the conclusion that the experience was "absolutely tragic for those who have died"?

Do you need to the dead to tell you that dieing is a bad experience?

You can certainly ask those who at some stage believed death was the only answer and survived how the experience was for them.