Autopsy Suns loss & Vent Thread

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Ratts should have a quiet word to Mclean before playing Kreuzer at Full Back, Casboult at CHF and Joseph in the ruck. Then we could get pick 11 for Mclean.

I have to laugh that you have almost implied that something is suspect if we choose to play Casboult at CHF. I know his kicking is bad but .....

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

What you are saying is that there are some current & potential members who won't buy memberships if Ratts is retained as coach (as contracted). In other words, they will only support the club on their own terms. Wow!! I think the club can do without those kind of members who will jump on & off depending on who is coaching the club. You're either in it for the long haul or you are not.

Yeah, it would be almost worth going back to 35k members for a year or two, just to weed out the fairweather supporters and commence building up a solid core.

 

[bluekidjoe]

What you are saying is that there are some current & potential members who won't buy memberships if Ratts is retained as coach (as contracted). In other words, they will only support the club on their own terms. Wow!! I think the club can do without those kind of members who will jump on & off depending on who is coaching the club. You're either in it for the long haul or you are not.

Haha mate I'll be a member regardless, never said I was hopping off. Will be a terrible decision for the club nonetheless. And yes I am saying some members will drop off, regardless of whether you personally like it or not, it is highly likely if he's retained (stats would show). A person will only ever become a member on their own terms and their level of investment is determined by what their money will buy them. If it buys a club that seems to be unsure or on the decline in any way then numbers will drop.
Take a swipe mate, just stating what I feel in an open forum, y'know.

 

[bluekidjoe]

Yeah, it would be almost worth going back to 35k members for a year or two, just to weed out the fairweather supporters and commence building up a solid core.

Haha wow, sorry, forgot it becomes an arrogant boys club when our backs are against the wall. Clearly my dollars don't matter as much. Sorry lads, will go back to mostly reading and not voicing thoughts cheers

 

[Matt72]

I reckon more will drop off if Malthouse is named coach

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Haha wow, sorry, forgot it becomes an arrogant boys club when our backs are against the wall. Clearly my dollars don't matter as much. Sorry lads, will go back to mostly reading and not voicing thoughts cheers

You already said you will be renewing your membership, so why are you getting defensive on behalf of those that will not renew their membership if Ratten sees out his contract?

 

[bluekidjoe]

Isn't my entire point about retaining those so the club doesn't lose cash?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I reckon more will drop off if Malthouse is named coach

It's a good point. It is easy to think that BigFooty and the online community in general is representative of the Carlton supporter base. This is not true. We are possibly more obsessive enough to want to talk about the club every day, and probably more opinionated, but our kind of opinion is often a minority one. On the shuttle bus leaving the ground last night, I was talking to two older ladies who were disappointed that Ratten would probably come under scrutiny. They said the players had let him down and without me mentioning it, they said 'hope we don't get that Malthouse'.

Malthouse might be a good coach to students of the game, but to many Carlton supporters, he was a sourpuss Collingwood coach who they despised.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Isn't my entire point about retaining those so the club doesn't lose cash?

Isn't my entire point about not pandering to fairweather supporters who threaten to withdraw their memberships?

I'm not sure where the 'arrogant' jibe comes in and why your dollars don't matter as much, unless of course you temporarily put yourself in the not renewing group.

 

[peejay]

It's a good point. It is easy to think that BigFooty and the online community in general is representative of the Carlton supporter base. This is not true. We are possibly more obsessive enough to want to talk about the club every day, and probably more opinionated, but our kind of opinion is often a minority one. On the shuttle bus leaving the ground last night, I was talking to two older ladies who were disappointed that Ratten would probably come under scrutiny. They said the players had let him down and without me mentioning it, they said 'hope we don't get that Malthouse'.

Malthouse might be a good coach to students of the game, but to many Carlton supporters, he was a sourpuss Collingwood coach who they despised.

So what is your view on malthouse?

 

[bluekidjoe]

Isn't my entire point about not pandering to fairweather supporters who threaten to withdraw their memberships?

I'm not sure where the 'arrogant' jibe comes in and why your dollars don't matter as much, unless of course you temporarily put yourself in the not renewing group.

I understand your point and as a heavily invested supporter it'd be frustrating seeing the fairweather blokes threaten to, and cancel, their memberships. However, I was only stating that as a club, if the fairweathers disappear we lose out financially, and if there appears to be instability within the club then sponsors become hesitant towards investing.
My point is, with the amount of media scrutiny reaching each household, we need to take action (most obviously replacing Ratten with Mick) as a point of strength and reassurance to those waning dollars. That's all. I'll shut up now.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

So what is your view on malthouse?

He's a sourpuss ex-Collingwood coach who I despised. Aside from that, I support the club on whatever they decide.

He has had success and is good at getting players to play for each other. He has taken a long time to do that at times and has risen and fallen up and down the ladder in doing so. I fear we have to go backwards, and a lot of good players will retire, before we become Malthouse-ised. It is also hard to know if we are learning lessons before a quick jump back up the ladder and might undo some of the work already done.

 

[SE_Blue]

So I just got home from Queensland. Couldn't get a flight home until 8 PM tonight so I had to endure the Gold Coast for another day. Don't think I've ever seen a more disgraceful effort from our club and think that this may have been our worst loss of all time as a club.

In hindsight however, I did visit the Gough Whitlam Prime Ministerial Institute on Friday and get an "It's Time" t-shirt, so it wasn't all bad.

EDIT: I've given McLean so much shit over his years at Carlton, but he was the only one (along with maybe Waite) who I could look at and think "They've played alright tonight"

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

So I just got home from Queensland. Couldn't get a flight home until 8 PM tonight so I had to endure the Gold Coast for another day. Don't think I've ever seen a more disgraceful effort from our club and think that this may have been our worst loss of all time as a club.

In hindsight however, I did visit the Gough Whitlam Prime Ministerial Institute on Friday and get an "It's Time" t-shirt, so it wasn't all bad.

Did you get your free quarter pounder for the Suns having beaten us in the first quarter?

 

[Tanks_Alot]

Look for Ratten to be sacked there must be a very good reason behind it.

While personally, I would like him to stop coming out and saying stuff like "we're going to make top 4", "Bryce Gibbs is going to have a break out year" and "if we make finals we'll be dangerous". It's only natural that when the coach starts looking too far ahead, then his players will. Now, this is not a good enough reason alone to sack him.

What I think will get him in trouble is the fact that he never takes a hard edge on the senior or leadership players. Last night was the first time I saw him have a go at Gibbs for a soft effort, it's been happening all year. Now, maybe he does have a go at him behind the scenes, but if he has then it hasn't been working. He seems to have his favourites on the list and this hurts the team. For example Thornton missing out so many times when he could've been useful. Look at how inexperienced our backline was last night, An experienced player like Thornton would've done better than White. Guys like McLean and Ellard are always the first to get dropped over the last couple years, but guys like Gibbs, Garlett etc won't get dropped no matter how bad they play and it wasn't just a week or two this year, they had many weeks in a row this year where they were bad. I feel that this gives the wrong message to the playing group, once they start feeling like they're safe no matter, they start to play complacent footy.

You'll find that the players in the top teams perform consistently because the pressure is on them to perform, they know if they aren't up to standard they'll lose their spot. Dropping Gibbs and Garlett earlier on would've sent a firm message to the whole group that lack of effort is unacceptable.

But reading through this thread, all the talk is about Ratten's future and very little is on the future of certain players. While Gibbs still has value he should be shopped around, this will do 2 things:

1) Earn us an early DP or a quality player. GWS would probably like to have a guy like Gibbs in their line up so they could offer something reasonable for him.
2) If no trade gets done, Gibbs will still be on notice. He'll know that the coaching staff aren't happy with him dishing up shit efforts and that could light a fire under his arse.

Both will benefit the team. Personally if we can get a decent DP for him, I'd take it and run. Let's pick up a couple of hard edged mids in this year's draft that have a good footy brain and are prepared to put in the hard yards every time and aren't going to shirk contact like as if we're playing netball. This way we won't have to play guys like Curnow and Ellard anymore who are both clearly not up to it. They work hard, no denying that, but we want to be a premiership team and they have no place for these type of players that continuously make poor decisions.

Lucas is another one I'd be shopping around. Sorry, but if you couldn't break into our team this year with all the injuries we had then something isn't right. Probably be lucky to get a 2nd rounder for him.

We will definitely need to find a decent small defender, cannot persist with the likes of Joseph and Touhy. Touhy's best chance is probably a spot in the forward line, but I have my doubts he'll succeed there. He has a brilliant kick on him, but that's not enough, you need to understand how to play the game, where to run, where/when to kick and handball. He needs a couple of seasons in the 2's to develop this part of his game because playing him in the seniors has hurt his confidence.

I would take a look at the lists of the top teams and see if there are any small defender type of players there that are starved of opportunity and see if we can get them for a cheap price like we did with Laidler.

We need to offload one of our ruckman as well imo. With the rule changes we cannot possibly hope to play all 3 of them at once. In fact the new trend is to have just one ruckman and a forward who can pinch hit. We've been going ok with Kruze and Casboult. So if Kreuzer goes down we'll have Hammer to replace him. If both go down then bad luck. No use keeping a 3rd ruckman in case 2 go down when there are other areas of our list that need depth. Draft a ruckman with a rookie pick if that's a huge concern. I would try and trade Warnock to GWS see what we can get for him, I'd be very happy with a 2nd rounder. This is because I think when Hammer goes forward at least he can be mobile enough to get to contests and kick a couple here and there whereas Warnock has shown he can't do that.

Let's make Goddard an offer he can't refuse. Won't cost as much as Cloke and would be a very valuable asset to the team. I think at the Saints he's lost motivation with them whether he wants to admit it or not because it's quite obvious he won't win a flag with them. We won't have to give up any picks either.

So if all this eventuated, this is what we'd lose and possibly get:

Lose
Gibbs >> 1st rounder (would not accept anything less because the guy is very talented, just not working for us)
Lucas >> 2nd rounder (although I think we'd be lucky to get that)
Warnock >> 2nd rounder (again might have to get lucky for that too, but he is a decent ruckman so not a ridiculous trade)
3rd rounder >> small defender (not sure who though but I'd start by looking at Geelong and Sydney's list. Both clubs have strong culture)
$$$$$$ >> Goddard

We use that 1st rounder from the Gibbs trade along with our 1st rounder to get the 2 best hard at it mids available. Then, with our 2nd rounders we get a key forward and another mid. We need to remember that we have a lot of mids who are getting old now and so we need to have some new ones to come in and replace them. Scotland, Judd, Carrazzo, Simpson all will need to be replaced soon. Now I only accounted for 2 2nd rounders, one of which our own and considering I said we'd be lucky to get a 2nd rounder for either Warnock or Lucas, I just accounted for 1. If we can get lucky enough to end up with 3 2nd rounders even better.

Now our midfield stocks will be bolstered with skillful players that will put their head over it and are talented enough to make smart decisions, We'll hopefully get a good find with the small defender, if can't find one for trade then obviously will need to draft one and we add Goddard to the team.

 

[SE_Blue]

Did you get your free quarter pounder for the Suns having beaten us in the first quarter?

Couldn't bear myself to do it. Ended up with a large Big Mac meal.

 

[Azul]

I fear we have to go backwards, and a lot of good players will retire, before we become Malthouse-ised. It is also hard to know if we are learning lessons before a quick jump back up the ladder and might undo some of the work already done.

Checkbook thinking got us Pagan. Brittain really couldn't have done any worse (than Pagan)

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Couldn't bear myself to do it. Ended up with a large Big Mac meal.

Ha! I decided I wasn't going to add useless calories and cash in on Carlton's misery. They can shove their quarter pounder.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Checkbook thinking got us Pagan. Brittain really couldn't have done any worse (than Pagan)

Interesting isn't it? Brittain had the players on side but we had a long rebuild ahead of us. Pagan never really had the players. Brittain would have offloaded Fev early in his career.

 

[one eyed bluey]

Look for Ratten to be sacked there must be a very good reason behind it.

While personally, I would like him to stop coming out and saying stuff like "we're going to make top 4", "Bryce Gibbs is going to have a break out year" and "if we make finals we'll be dangerous". It's only natural that when the coach starts looking too far ahead, then his players will. Now, this is not a good enough reason alone to sack him.
Agree, the players let him down still think he'll get the sack though

What I think will get him in trouble is the fact that he never takes a hard edge on the senior or leadership players. Last night was the first time I saw him have a go at Gibbs for a soft effort, it's been happening all year. Now, maybe he does have a go at him behind the scenes, but if he has then it hasn't been working. He seems to have his favourites on the list and this hurts the team. For example Thornton missing out so many times when he could've been useful. Look at how inexperienced our backline was last night, An experienced player like Thornton would've done better than White. Guys like McLean and Ellard are always the first to get dropped over the last couple years, but guys like Gibbs, Garlett etc won't get dropped no matter how bad they play and it wasn't just a week or two this year, they had many weeks in a row this year where they were bad. I feel that this gives the wrong message to the playing group, once they start feeling like they're safe no matter, they start to play complacent footy.
Thorton would've done jack...rather give games to young players with a future like McGinnes and white.

You'll find that the players in the top teams perform consistently because the pressure is on them to perform, they know if they aren't up to standard they'll lose their spot. Dropping Gibbs and Garlett earlier on would've sent a firm message to the whole group that lack of effort is unacceptable.
Agree

But reading through this thread, all the talk is about Ratten's future and very little is on the future of certain players. While Gibbs still has value he should be shopped around, this will do 2 things:

1) Earn us an early DP or a quality player. GWS would probably like to have a guy like Gibbs in their line up so they could offer something reasonable for him.
2) If no trade gets done, Gibbs will still be on notice. He'll know that the coaching staff aren't happy with him dishing up shit efforts and that could light a fire under his arse.
No Gibbs is worth persisting with

Both will benefit the team. Personally if we can get a decent DP for him, I'd take it and run. Let's pick up a couple of hard edged mids in this year's draft that have a good footy brain and are prepared to put in the hard yards every time and aren't going to shirk contact like as if we're playing netball. This way we won't have to play guys like Curnow and Ellard anymore who are both clearly not up to it. They work hard, no denying that, but we want to be a premiership team and they have no place for these type of players that continuously make poor decisions.
Agree curnow and ellard have to go they're clearly not up to AFL standard and won't be in a premiership team. Replace with Bell and Lucas?

Lucas is another one I'd be shopping around. Sorry, but if you couldn't break into our team this year with all the injuries we had then something isn't right. Probably be lucky to get a 2nd rounder for him.

We will definitely need to find a decent small defender, cannot persist with the likes of Joseph and Touhy. Touhy's best chance is probably a spot in the forward line, but I have my doubts he'll succeed there. He has a brilliant kick on him, but that's not enough, you need to understand how to play the game, where to run, where/when to kick and handball. He needs a couple of seasons in the 2's to develop this part of his game because playing him in the seniors has hurt his confidence.

I would take a look at the lists of the top teams and see if there are any small defender type of players there that are starved of opportunity and see if we can get them for a cheap price like we did with Laidler.

We need to offload one of our ruckman as well imo. With the rule changes we cannot possibly hope to play all 3 of them at once. In fact the new trend is to have just one ruckman and a forward who can pinch hit. We've been going ok with Kruze and Casboult. So if Kreuzer goes down we'll have Hammer to replace him. If both go down then bad luck. No use keeping a 3rd ruckman in case 2 go down when there are other areas of our list that need depth. Draft a ruckman with a rookie pick if that's a huge concern. I would try and trade Warnock to GWS see what we can get for him, I'd be very happy with a 2nd rounder. This is because I think when Hammer goes forward at least he can be mobile enough to get to contests and kick a couple here and there whereas Warnock has shown he can't do that.

Let's make Goddard an offer he can't refuse. Won't cost as much as Cloke and would be a very valuable asset to the team. I think at the Saints he's lost motivation with them whether he wants to admit it or not because it's quite obvious he won't win a flag with them. We won't have to give up any picks either.

So if all this eventuated, this is what we'd lose and possibly get:

Lose
Gibbs >> 1st rounder (would not accept anything less because the guy is very talented, just not working for us)
Lucas >> 2nd rounder (although I think we'd be lucky to get that)
Warnock >> 2nd rounder (again might have to get lucky for that too, but he is a decent ruckman so not a ridiculous trade)
3rd rounder >> small defender (not sure who though but I'd start by looking at Geelong and Sydney's list. Both clubs have strong culture)
$$$$$$ >> Goddard

We use that 1st rounder from the Gibbs trade along with our 1st rounder to get the 2 best hard at it mids available. Then, with our 2nd rounders we get a key forward and another mid. We need to remember that we have a lot of mids who are getting old now and so we need to have some new ones to come in and replace them. Scotland, Judd, Carrazzo, Simpson all will need to be replaced soon. Now I only accounted for 2 2nd rounders, one of which our own and considering I said we'd be lucky to get a 2nd rounder for either Warnock or Lucas, I just accounted for 1. If we can get lucky enough to end up with 3 2nd rounders even better.

Now our midfield stocks will be bolstered with skillful players that will put their head over it and are talented enough to make smart decisions, We'll hopefully get a good find with the small defender, if can't find one for trade then obviously will need to draft one and we add Goddard to the team.

 

[fnm_just a man]

Mostly a quality post but sorry, I ain't copping blame for expecting a win. Ridiculous suggestion.

Not just 'a win' but expecting an easy win and a percentage booster is fraught with danger. The media only reflect what society is already feeling and the vibe that is present, which I guess is guided by reality, so in a sense you can't have it any other way....but if you could have convinced every player that the team they were playing was a favourite for the flag and a massive effort was going to be needed to topple them, then i expect our performance would have had a completely different tone. hahaha...i realise it's absurd but at the same time it makes sense.

 

[Blue Flame]

Not just 'a win' but expecting an easy win and a percentage booster is fraught with danger.

The issue is though, if they players expect a win they should cop it. The supporters cannot be blamed though, it's not us that make them win or lose.

What I think will get him in trouble is the fact that he never takes a hard edge on the senior or leadership players.
......
For example Thornton missing out so many times when he could've been useful. Look at how inexperienced our backline was last night, An experienced player like Thornton would've done better than White.

I am trying not to sound dismissive here, Tanks, but you can't really have it both ways. Thornton is, with Simpson and Waite, I think one of the three remaining players from the 2002 squad. You don't really get more senior than that.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I am trying not to sound dismissive here, Tanks, but you can't really have it both ways. Thornton is, with Simpson and Waite, I think one of the three remaining players from the 2002 squad. You don't really get more senior than that.

A year ahead of Simpson. Waite was taken in the national draft at the end of 2001, Thornton the rookie draft so technically Waite has the greater longevity. Thornton debuted ahead of both however.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

"That's one small step for (a) man, one giant leap for mankind." Yes, that's the famous phrase uttered by the late Neil Armstrong as he first walked on the moon.

What many may not know, was just after that and with the mic turned off, he said "And good luck to you, Mr Gorski"
When Neil was growing up he lived next door to the Gorski's and he could often overhear them arguing - one such argument went along the lines of Mrs Gorski saying "I will give you oral sex when the little boy next door walks on the moon"
So, good luck to you, Mr Gorski.
True story.

That is a fantastic story, i hope thats true

 

[Tanks_Alot]

I am trying not to sound dismissive here, Tanks, but you can't really have it both ways. Thornton is, with Simpson and Waite, I think one of the three remaining players from the 2002 squad. You don't really get more senior than that.

Sorry by senior players I meant the regular brigade that we put on the park. The guys that seem to get games no matter how bad they play like Gibbs and Garlett. Sometimes when you type massive posts like that you tend to say things the way you don't exactly mean them.