As one who thinks the lottery system for determining draft order is worth consideration, interested to read of tanking claims made by sacked Cavs coach on ESPN. Claimed the Club made "surprising" trade decisions and he was ordered to play young players, ensuring a lower finish and an increased chance at drafting superstar LeBron James, despite the uncertainty of the lottery
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Tanking and the draft
- Thread starter roowatch
- Start date
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I know some basketball fans who are hoping their team tanks the rest of the season. A lottery won't stop tanking.
Priority picks are a bigger factor IMO.
A lottery will not wipe out tanking, but it certainly reduces the incentive to do it.
The priority pick is the carrot.
Be crap, and you get 1st pick instead of 2nd. Fine, most can cope with that.
Be even crapper, for longer, and you get 1 and 2? That's where it hurst.
Especially when they change the rules just as you qualify for the old ones, so you get pick 2 and 18 instead of 2 and 5.... grrrrr.
Be crap, and you get 1st pick instead of 2nd. Fine, most can cope with that.
Be even crapper, for longer, and you get 1 and 2? That's where it hurst.
Especially when they change the rules just as you qualify for the old ones, so you get pick 2 and 18 instead of 2 and 5.... grrrrr.
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Tank properly and its pick 1 + 2 in the national draft and pick 1 in the PSD. Do not underestimate that third carrot. The best uncontracted player in the league. To pick up the best 2 youngsters and the best available senior player is way too much incentive in most peoples opinions. Then again, according to the AFL and the clubs, tanking doesn't happen does it?.
Russell Robertson gave his thoughts as a player. Terry Wallet gave his thoughts as a coach. What more do you need? I've always felt sorry for older players who aren't selected because it is not in a clubs best interest to win. They don't get to enjoy their last seasons as players and they also suffer financially by not receiving the match payments they would get by playing in the seniors. History is littered with these incidents; Simon Garlick and Matthew Croft's last season is one that always springs to mind.
And throw in Brock Mccleans interview on SEN(I think?), where he all but said "yes we tanked for draft picks"...Amazed that didnt get more media attention than it did.
You're probably never going to completely eradicate tanking, or least the notion of tanking so long as there is a draft. But as it stands the priority pick is a massive incentive to lose games and should be, but probably wont be scrapped.
So what would've happened if the balls fell the wrong way?? Go back to the Tim Duncan draft where the Celts had highest chance of getting no.1. Not only did they miss the no.1 pick but also no.2. Had no.3 and 6. No guarantee of getting a top pick even if you tank... btw, this claim just fuels my hatred of the Cavs (still not to the same point as my hatred for Lakers and never will be)
"Fascination With U.S. Sports" Board next time please ..........
Not one post here mentions how Carlton is the ONLY club to have tanked for draft picks...where is the hatred and disdain for everything from Carlton?
I thought the purpose of the Herald-Sun and others was to foster the dislike for Carlton. You guys above are not following the program.
People above mentioned how Melbourne, Richmond and others tanked... how come no mention of Carlton??
Playing shite football for 10 years is a crime enough if you ask me.
I thought the purpose of the Herald-Sun and others was to foster the dislike for Carlton. You guys above are not following the program.
People above mentioned how Melbourne, Richmond and others tanked... how come no mention of Carlton??
Playing shite football for 10 years is a crime enough if you ask me.
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most of the basic concepts the AFL introduce are used in US sports.........but the AFL generally modifies the implementation to engineer an alternative conclusion and ****s up the concept entirely. Priority pick is an example.
thank god for the existance of american sports as a source to pilfer ideas............3M post-it notes is an example of what happens when local administrators put their heads together and come up with their own policies and processes.
IMO, a lottery isnt required. NBA needs some form of deterrant such as a lottery because teams play 82-matches each in their regular season........that's many dead games. furthermore, there are only 2 rounds in an NBA draft, and because a basketball team fields 5 players on the court at any one time, the value of 1 gun player (20% of on-court personnel) is significant in comparison to 1 player on an AFL field. hence the value of an early NBA draft pick is massive.
eliminate priority picks in the AFL and the incentive to, and the perception of tanking will decrease. while they're at it, providing recruiting options other than the draft (which is the be-all and end-all in the AFL because no other option realistically exists) will place less emphasis on the draft than there is now, and permit roster improvement in the short-term.
equalisation in the AFL is a joke! it's just a BS cycling. the difference in competitiveness from premier to wooden spooner is still as vast as it ever was.
The priority pick is not going to be around for the next 2 drafts anyway and then it will be up to the AFL as to whether it comes back or not. Personally I think if it does stay it will be increased to over three years qualification instead of the two it was at. It may even become discretionary and be decided by the AFL if a team should or shouldn't get a priority pick and when they get it. It may not come back at all.
This.
It may not stop the tanking but the rewards for it are so much less.
I don't think tanking is as huge as some people making it out but the problem is perceived and when/if it does happen the rewards are to great.
stmookeyj
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I'll go one further, how about the 1985 NBA lottery that has evidence that it was rigged to favour New York (who got Patrick Ewing)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mN3OGRGybA (have a good look at the description)
Now who's to say that the AFL won't do the same thing to give the new franchises a leg up? Or for the bottom placed club to get the #1 pick?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mN3OGRGybA (have a good look at the description)
Now who's to say that the AFL won't do the same thing to give the new franchises a leg up? Or for the bottom placed club to get the #1 pick?
Bring-Back-Powell
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Who cares. The Dees got what they wanted in 2009. Now we can go about the business of winning games.
BTW tanking will be off the agenda now that GC and GWS have all the picks.
BTW tanking will be off the agenda now that GC and GWS have all the picks.
- Banned
- #18
yeah you're right its not like we have a salary cap and draft, or that we went on a fact finding mission and consulted NBA commissioner David Stern to see how best to implement such measures.
as none of those things happen, you're quite right we live in vacuum and should assume that we have nothing to learn from others.
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- #19
there is *NO* evidence of this, its a conspiracy theory nothing more.
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They can get pretty damn close IMO if they just bring in the lottery. Finish in the bottom 4, go in a draw for those places. Finish in the next 4, the same, and NO priority picks. The top eight receive their pick as usual. To me that would largely eradicate tanking...
removing the priority pick will have a far greater affect on tanking than a lottery draft would
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- #22
yayayaya funny ****er aren't you!
At least when we sucked it was because we were trying to suck. You guys went from 9th to 15th despite giving 100%. So bad your reserve player asked your coach to resign - inmates running the asylum?
How is the new 5 year plan looking?
As for the topic - I don't have a problem with the current system. It gives clubs a leg up.
Maybe, but my point was COMBINING the two will make it even less palatable, especially if finishing last does not guarantee you pick 1.
So your suggesting Mclean left Melbourne because he thought they were tanking and wanted to go to a club that is purfect. And it is Mclean not Mcclean.
NBA is the biggest tanking league in the World! Look at the KNicks that have tanked the last two years to get rid of salary to make a run a Free Agent market at the end of this year.
Lottery will do nothing to reduce tanking, in fact it could incourage it more as depending on the lottery you want (i.e. Pure luck, Weighted, only x number of picks lottery determined and then reverse finishing order, etc) there is even more reason to finish as low as possibly to make sure you get some sort of decent pick as there is no certainty if you finish last the next year (whether tanking or just being crap) that your going to get anything decent.
The other issue to me is that most people see tanking as being playing kids, sending guys for surgery and getting rid of the older players, and no matter what pick you get, that is still the best strategy! The only way to stop tanking is to put a disincentive in tanking in the draft (i.e. you don't reduce the quality of picks you take them away) or you bring in Promotion/relegation system.
Also, when considering if a system is likely to reduce tanking, don't look if your worst of in this system compared to another system in the draft if you lose a certain game, look are you worst off in this system if you lose a game, and there are no systems I have seen worth brining in that do that!
And have we actually had a team get the first pick that wasn't crap? I don't think we have. Also, look at the evenness of the comp and I would hate to risk that with a lottery.
I would have no problem scrapping the Priority pick and agree with the earlier post that said that 1st pick in the national draft was too much of a reward as well (it should be said I support/suggest getting rid of the Preseason draft altogether).
On those that point at Carlton about tanking, if you ask me, the Hawks have been the best and most successful tankers and they never finished last. I say they are the best as the traded away (arguably) valuable players to get more draft picks and build the team that way. The added bonus of trading these good players is that you team is weakened in the short term and you are therefor likely to finish closure to the bottom and get better picks.
Anyway, rant over!
TIA
Molly
Lottery will do nothing to reduce tanking, in fact it could incourage it more as depending on the lottery you want (i.e. Pure luck, Weighted, only x number of picks lottery determined and then reverse finishing order, etc) there is even more reason to finish as low as possibly to make sure you get some sort of decent pick as there is no certainty if you finish last the next year (whether tanking or just being crap) that your going to get anything decent.
The other issue to me is that most people see tanking as being playing kids, sending guys for surgery and getting rid of the older players, and no matter what pick you get, that is still the best strategy! The only way to stop tanking is to put a disincentive in tanking in the draft (i.e. you don't reduce the quality of picks you take them away) or you bring in Promotion/relegation system.
Also, when considering if a system is likely to reduce tanking, don't look if your worst of in this system compared to another system in the draft if you lose a certain game, look are you worst off in this system if you lose a game, and there are no systems I have seen worth brining in that do that!
And have we actually had a team get the first pick that wasn't crap? I don't think we have. Also, look at the evenness of the comp and I would hate to risk that with a lottery.
I would have no problem scrapping the Priority pick and agree with the earlier post that said that 1st pick in the national draft was too much of a reward as well (it should be said I support/suggest getting rid of the Preseason draft altogether).
On those that point at Carlton about tanking, if you ask me, the Hawks have been the best and most successful tankers and they never finished last. I say they are the best as the traded away (arguably) valuable players to get more draft picks and build the team that way. The added bonus of trading these good players is that you team is weakened in the short term and you are therefor likely to finish closure to the bottom and get better picks.
Anyway, rant over!
TIA
Molly
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