Mega Thread The 2017 'Buckley's Chances' Thread

[TKiL]

I thought I'd have a go at summarising the 478 pages of this thread:

1. The status quo is unacceptable

2. The Emperor adores the anointed one

3. Something should change

4. None of us have any idea what the Emperor will decide

End

 

[TKiL]

When Lynden Dunn (who I'm a fan of FWIW) is holding together the backline and a kid with less than 50 games is your best key forward, you have to ask questions about list management.

.....
I'm not sure what my point is here, so forgive my rambling. .....

It happens throughout this site

 

[TheVarcoenator]

Scott burns is midfield coach isnt he? Theyve performed well this season, as one of the assistant out of contract, surely he doesnt go.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

And that, ultimately comes down to player development. The question gets down to who has the fay to day responsibility for that? Do we have the best people in that place? I expect(don't know for sure ) that this responsibility falls to a specific person. We used to be briliant in this area and have dropped the ball badly

Valid.

And our record with our long term players then going over 30 is not glorious.

This should be of major concern.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

I thought I'd have a go at summarising the 478 pages of this thread:

1. The status quo is unacceptable

2. The Emperor adores the anointed one

3. Something should change

4. None of us have any idea what the Emperor will decide

End

With Ed likely to stay till he is very very old, on that we have to as Buffy used to say "Deal."

One of the things that does happen in this discussion is that people get in their little corners, and me and including, go around in circles.

I'm sure if you discussed it with Ed, he'd see reason - maybe not.

 

[Carringbush2010]

All valid points.
Well presented and very accurate too.

It's all round.

But our real hope is of the younger types come through together at a higher level.
That is our real challenge.

I know I keep harping on about it but are talking about development?

 

[Leviathan Pie]

Is this the same Nathan Buckley that said there was 'no way' he could see himself coaching Collingwood beyond 2017 if we didn't make finals this season?

lol, how things change.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...g-group-in-early-seasons-20160819-gqx3b0.html

 

[HeathySure]

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

If my posts are tiring, so be it.

ps everyone has friends who think like they do, it's human nature to hang around like minded people.
Eg my spiel as you call it is getting tired, if it agreed with you, it would be less tiring. Human nature always triumphs.

pps I wouldn't be equating standing by Hird and our coaching discussion. Completely different.
Anyone tried that stuff at Collingwood I wouldn't ever support that kind of nonsense and belligerent
behaviour.

ppps doesn't bother me in the slightest if people have a counter view about the coaching position.
Whoever is the coach, I'm less worried about.
I don't see the issue currently at the top, but that's just me. I think we improved this season.
My main point has always been, if the players aren't up to it, success isn't coming any time soon.

its not so much that you have a different opinion, that is no problem, you keep saying that Big Footy melts, its not melting its some people stating their opinion, some express their ways differently to others, thats ok we all get hot under the collar sometimes. Unless they are disrespectful let them melt, it soothes the heart

 

[doppleganger]

Is this the same Nathan Buckley that said there was 'no way' he could see himself coaching Collingwood beyond 2017 if we didn't make finals this season?

lol, how things change.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...g-group-in-early-seasons-20160819-gqx3b0.html

I have no idea why people keep bringing that up.

Buckley doesn't appoint himself as Collingwood coach.

He was answering a question. He acknowledged, that like most coaches, if he wanted a contract extension that making finals would give that to him. Miss finals and the likelihood would be that Collingwood would look for a new coach.

That is exactly how things have played out, and if we sounded out guys like Clarko, Longmire, Roos etc. and they wanted to come Bucks may have been moved on. Now the board (Eddie) need to decide if he stays or goes, and the missing finals may still be the end of him....as he predicted.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

its not so much that you have a different opinion, that is no problem, you keep saying that Big Footy melts, its not melting its some people stating their opinion, some express their ways differently to others, thats ok we all get hot under the collar sometimes. Unless they are disrespectful let them melt, it soothes the heart

Agree.
You have articulated this very well.

You are correct overall.

 

[mattys123]

I have no idea why people keep bringing that up.

Buckley doesn't appoint himself as Collingwood coach.

He was answering a question. He acknowledged, that like most coaches, if he wanted a contract extension that making finals would give that to him. Miss finals and the likelihood would be that Collingwood would look for a new coach.

That is exactly how things have played out, and if we sounded out guys like Clarko, Longmire, Roos etc. and they wanted to come Bucks may have been moved on. Now the board (Eddie) need to decide if he stays or goes, and the missing finals may still be the end of him....as he predicted.

People keep bringing it up because Bucks' most fervent supporters use the "hes such a good man" and "he always done whats best for the club" as defenses as to why he should stay.

I hate those defenses more then any part of any part of this debate, so I can see how some (not me I couldn't give a shit what hes said in the past) want to keep bringing that up, because it goes against everything his backers say about the man.

And yes, I want him to be replaced, but it's got nothing to do with what he's said or promised, it's to do with him being given 6 years to grow the squad and develop a winning team and failing at every level in doing that.

 

[doppleganger]

It's clear what we have is not working.
And I think people are starting to lose patience around the notion that "it is everything else and everyone else to blame but Buckley" when he makes the executive decisions on the team.

What isn't working though?

Sure patience is running thin for everybody, but unless you can identify exactly the areas that aren't working in the football department then you can make things worse before actually seeing any improvement.

I've seen you mention a few times that you put it down to the list not having the talent, so the coach can only do so much.
Whilst this is accurate to a degree, surely we cannot just stick with a guy in the event that all the stars and planets align one day and he has the "team" to challenge.
It's already been 6 years.

You need to take into account the cyclical nature of football and football lists.
Clarko and R.Lyon find themselves in a position similar to that of Buckley circa 2013, after a period where their club was contending they now have to rebuild.

Freo appear to have gone the real long term, going for youth and draft picks.
Hawthorn have tried to circumvent the real bottoming out by trading draft picks for established guys like Mitchell and JOM.

But how do you judge them next year? If Hawthorn finish 12th, which is similar to what Buckley has delivered when trying to rebuild, is Clarko a failure?
If Freo remain out of finals contention for another two years, that will be four years without finals, would Lyon then get the sack?

How long do clubs take to rebuild when they hit the draft is ultimately a result of how quickly and how good the kids they selected actually end up becoming. Nail your kids and you can have rapid improvement, but that is our biggest problem our top kids haven't developed that quickly at all.

For mine, I simply cant hold Buckley accountable for that, it is recruiting, development and conditioning guys that are most important in selecting the right kids and then getting them ready for senior footy. If Buckley himself hand picked the recruiters and conditioning guys well then he should be held to account, but I doubt that would be the case.

How much patience do you have before it's time for someone else to have an opportunity?
Change for the sake of change i don't agree with.
However, change, in order to improve the circumstances is definitely a good thing.

How do you know changing the senior coach will improve the circumstances?

If you haven't identified the actual problem's in the football department, and narrowed them down to being a result of failures of Buckley himself, then it is simply change for the sake of change.

 

[GreekLunatic]

According to ed we haven't put a timeline when we decide what happens to Bucks if he stays or goes

 

[doppleganger]

People keep bringing it up because Bucks' most fervent supporters use the "hes such a good man" and "he always done whats best for the club" as defenses as to why he should stay.

I hate those defenses more then any part of any part of this debate, so I can see how some (not me I couldn't give a shit what hes said in the past) want to keep bringing that up, because it goes against everything his backers say about the man.

That doesn't make any sense?

Buckley saying late in 2016 that for him to be coaching Collingwood post 2017, ie get a contract extension, that finals would be the obvious measuring stick was just him stating the truth.

If we made finals in 2017, he would have had his contract extended. Now that we missed, he remains a big chance to have his coaching career at Collingwood ended...as he said.

How people have somehow came to the conclusion that he would walk away or quit if we didn't make finals is baffling.

How you somehow think it shows whether he is a good man or not is even more puzzling.

 

[Gone Critical]

an inanimate carbon rod could have coached those sides to finals

This is my favorite inanimate object

 

[Saintly Viewed]

People keep bringing it up because Bucks' most fervent supporters use the "hes such a good man" and "he always done whats best for the club" as defenses as to why he should stay.

I hate those defenses more then any part of any part of this debate, so I can see how some (not me I couldn't give a shit what hes said in the past) want to keep bringing that up, because it goes against everything his backers say about the man.

And yes, I want him to be replaced, but it's got nothing to do with what he's said or promised, it's to do with him being given 6 years to grow the squad and develop a winning team and failing at every level in doing that.

Who actually says that as a reason to keep him?

I think the major reasons for the supporters of the status quote are that the club is rebuilding the list.
It's the need for better players.
Nathan has natural authority and is personality wise a leader.
It's his list let him complete the job.
There is recognition of his fine character but that's as a compliment to his other attributes.

The people that try to use his words to some perfection better apply that to every other human out there, s if nobody can ever change their mind or wording. That's some perfection sought.

 

[STAR_SHARROD]

For all the reasons I have mentioned previously, I remain absolutely steadfast in my support of the senior coach, regardless of his name.
Would like nothing more than to see him signed on for a further 2 years.

 

[Leviathan Pie]

I have no idea why people keep bringing that up.

Buckley doesn't appoint himself as Collingwood coach.

He was answering a question. He acknowledged, that like most coaches, if he wanted a contract extension that making finals would give that to him. Miss finals and the likelihood would be that Collingwood would look for a new coach.

That is exactly how things have played out, and if we sounded out guys like Clarko, Longmire, Roos etc. and they wanted to come Bucks may have been moved on. Now the board (Eddie) need to decide if he stays or goes, and the missing finals may still be the end of him....as he predicted.

He's a man of his word, isn't he?

This season yet again confirmed his failings as a coach, its up the club to remove him. But could Nathan even remove himself?

 

[TTRRAAVVIISS]

For all the reasons I have mentioned previously, I remain absolutely steadfast in my support of the senior coach, regardless of his name.
Would like nothing more than to see him signed on for a further 2 years.

Why are you transfixed on 2 years? If he is capable of being a moderately successful coach surely you give him a 4 year deal?

Even if we got Clarko your looking at 3 years to make a GF. So flag window would open in 2020. What's the point of a 2 year deal if you think Naffan is capable of a flag in 3 years? Shouldn't you be demanding a 4 or 5 year contract for Bucks?

A two year deal is a lame duck contract. It just supports the fact the board don't rate him, but don't wanna admit they stuffed up in appointing him and are hoping to placate the members until a quality coach like Clarko or Longmire etc can be secured.

Two years is treading water like we have been for the past 4 seasons

 

[doppleganger]

He's a man of his word, isn't he?

This season yet again confirmed his failings as a coach, its up the club to remove him. But could Nathan even remove himself?

What? You keep misinterpreting him.

If Buckley still believes he can help lead Collingwood to a premiership, that he thinks he is making progress with the list, that he is getting good results out of the list, that he is the right man to coach Collingwood...then why would he remove himself?

If the board don't think he is doing the above, they will not offer him a new contract.

 

[mattys123]

Who actually says that as a reason to keep him?

I think the major reasons for the supporters of the status quote are that the club is rebuilding the list.
It's the need for better players.
Nathan has natural authority and is personality wise a leader.
It's his list let him complete the job.
There is recognition of his fine character but that's as a compliment to his other attributes.

The people that try to use his words to some perfection better apply that to every other human out there, s if nobody can ever change their mind or wording. That's some perfection sought.

A lot of his supporters say that.

And as for the other reasons.

Complete the job?

Ok, how long is that going to take, because with the list he's built, and the game plan he has (yes he has one, don't deny that) we aren't winning a premiership or even pushing top 4 in the next 2 seasons with him at the helm.

So how long do we want to give him. 9 years? 11 years? Shit, I seriously have seen any other top level sporting team on the planet give their coach/manager 9+ years without at least a taste of improvement in that time. (happy to be proven wrong here).

Yeah, he's had time to complete the job, let's say the 2012 list was still mainly the old team, well he's had 5 complete seasons to rebuild this list and get it within reach of finals, let alone a premiership, and we are nowhere near finals even.

Yeah, he's had his chance, simple, time to try something, well someone new.

And that's why I, unlike some, see this is a purely business and sporting decision which is in the best interests of this club. And that decision has to be a change of senior coach.

If we do move on from Buckley, I'll happily thank him for his time and efforts, it's business, which is what sport is more then ever now.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

A lot of his supporters say that.

And as for the other reasons.

Complete the job?

Ok, how long is that going to take, because with the list he's built, and the game plan he has (yes he has one, don't deny that) we aren't winning a premiership or even pushing top 4 in the next 2 seasons with him at the helm.

So how long do we want to give him. 9 years? 11 years? Shit, I seriously have seen any other top level sporting team on the planet give their coach/manager 9+ years without at least a taste of improvement in that time. (happy to be proven wrong here).

Yeah, he's had time to complete the job, let's say the 2012 list was still mainly the old team, well he's had 5 complete seasons to rebuild this list and get it within reach of finals, let alone a premiership, and we are nowhere near finals even.

Yeah, he's had his chance, simple, time to try something, well someone new.

And that's why, unlike some, see this is a purely business and sporting decision which is in the best interests of this club. And that decision has to be a change of senior coach.

That's your view point fair enough.
Another few years for me.

Bob Rose had about ten years - he is our great tragic coach. Nobody calls him a great coach. Great shame.

Mick had 12 years for one flag. Yes got to grand finals but only 1 flag.

Leigh ten years or so, 1 flag.

Disgraceful what we did to tom
Hafey.

We don't win flags too often so not sure it's the coaches, their time frames.

That's just my view.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Why are you transfixed on 2 years? If he is capable of being a moderately successful coach surely you give him a 4 year deal?

Even if we got Clarko your looking at 3 years to make a GF. So flag window would open in 2020. What's the point of a 2 year deal if you think Naffan is capable of a flag in 3 years? Shouldn't you be demanding a 4 or 5 year contract for Bucks?

A two year deal is a lame duck contract. It just supports the fact the board don't rate him, but don't wanna admit they stuffed up in appointing him and are hoping to placate the members until a quality coach like Clarko or Longmire etc can be secured.

Two years is treading water like we have been for the past 4 seasons

Interesting point.

I've never understood why coaches just don't get one year rolling contracts anyway.

Even if you give them long years if they want to go they just go anyway.

All you doing is having s higher payout than needed if you want to chop the coach

 

[Roverjg]

That's your view point fair enough.
Another few years for me.

Bob Rose had about ten years - he is our great tragic coach. Nobody calls him a great coach. Great shame.

Mick had 12 years for one flag. Yes got to grand finals but only 1 flag.

Leigh ten years or so, 1 flag.

Disgraceful what we did to tom
Hafey.

We don't win flags too often so not sure it's the coaches, their time frames.

That's just my view.

Saintly, you are obviously referring to Premierships. At this stage I would be happy to see improvement in our ladder position. Something we havent shown in the past 4 years.

 

[Countrypie]

God give me the strength to make this my final post on this thread until such time as a decision is announced