Opinion The Baton

[Maggie Greg]

Yes he could have been anything but he was a powerhouse,
Carman missed out on a Brownlow by three votes in a season where he missed eight games with a broken foot… playing in a state game.

That is true, but that was before Laurie Fowler worked out in Round 22 Carman could have been gotten in. From there on there wsa a way to play him and which lead us to not winning the 1977 premiership.

Carman being the narcissist that he is, blamed Collingwood for him being an idiot.

Tom Hafey never forgave him, even 35 years later

 

[jonbe54]

That is true, but that was before Laurie Fowler worked out in Round 22 Carman could have been gotten in. From there on there wsa a way to play him and which lead us to not winning the 1977 premiership.

Carman being the narcissist that he is, blamed Collingwood for him being an idiot.

Tom Hafey never forgave him, even 35 years later

It's truly sad about Carman - he was interviewed some time after retirement and he still simply didn't get it that his total lack of discipline and self control cost as a flag.

He really came off as a simpleton in that interview.

 

[jonbe54]

There are plenty of football people who blame Teabag Tom for us missing the '77 flag by overtraining us after the drawn GF but I have not an instants doubt that was was the utter stupidity of Carman in the Semi Final that cost us the flag.

Say what you like about his IQ he was a 2 goal average player every game.

With him playing North would never have gotten close enough.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

There are plenty of football people who blame Teabag Tom for us missing the '77 flag by overtraining us after the drawn GF but I have not an instants doubt that was was the utter stupidity of Carman in the Semi Final that cost us the flag.

Say what you like about his IQ he was a 2 goal average player every game.

With him playing North would never have gotten close enough.

Why not blame both? Hafey definitely was outsmarted by Barassi.

Or maybe blame Arnold Breidis for kicking 0.7 and allowing the game to be drawn in the first place.

 

[Robroy22]

Why not blame both? Hafey definitely was outsmarted by Barassi.

Or maybe blame Arnold Breidis for kicking 0.7 and allowing the game to be drawn in the first place.

Lol....I actually blame the timekeeper. If that game went another 15 seconds we'd have scored again! Bondy was just about to release a bomb (40m+ was a bomb for Shane Bond) to the goal square! We'd have rushed a point for sure!

 

[Gone Critical]

That is true, but that was before Laurie Fowler worked out in Round 22 Carman could have been gotten in. From there on there wsa a way to play him and which lead us to not winning the 1977 premiership.

Carman being the narcissist that he is, blamed Collingwood for him being an idiot.

Tom Hafey never forgave him, even 35 years later

Remember that very well. Was at Vic Park that day and suddenly there seemed a chink in what had been impenetrable armour. Sad moment

 

[Gone Critical]

Indeed, we need some more game changing players.

So can any of you veteran Pies fans put together a “succession” of best players by era rather than debating who was the all-time best/toughest/whatever?

Late 60's to 74 McKenna. Was tempted to say Tuddy for some of that but McKenna was the most dangerous player we had. He kicked so many of our goals. Tuddy was the one who stopped him in the 70 GF and cost us a flag

75-77 Carmen. Much more than his stats say he was electric and could take a game by the throat at any moment. Head stopped him being a great.

78- 81 Peter Moore. Again a huge presence and could argue he passed Carmen in 77. Teams did a lot of planning around stopping him.

82- 84 Collingwood was on the fall but the younger version of Daicos was in full flower these years and boy what a sight.

85-87 Brian Taylor. Lean years and Daics sidelined, BT's 80, 100 and 60 goal hauls in those years made him a constant threat.

88-89 Daics back to his best as a mid was our most influential with Rowdy coming and Pants and Shawry the others

90 Tony Shaw. Could be Rowdy or Daics but Shaw this year was the glue and the Norm Smith

91-94 Rowdy - Loved him more than any other Pie, bled for the club. Champion

95 - 07 Bucks. The greatest Pie player ever.

08- 13 Swanny. Goal kicking champion mid. Hurt teams all the time

14 -21 Pendles Even as he dropped off in 2021 still most influential Pie. Hard to seperate he and Swanny, swannys highs higher but Pendles longer

22 Step forward ND, 2022 B&F

 

[Vicky Park]

22 Step forward ND, 2022 B&F

Great overview GC, no argument from me. But you really think the latter?

 

[loki04]

The down year we’ve just endured, and the hyperbole over Nicky D has gotten me thinking about who our best players have been over the time I’ve followed the Maggies. Not our “better” players, or even our Copeland winners necessarily (as it heavily rewards consistency, remaining injury-free etc.). I mean the best player at the club, who opposition would fear the most and who would be most influential in getting us a win.

As I was a teenager when Buckley came across, I’m not entirely sure when he became that player for us, but I suspect quickly. He was averaging 24 disposals and 1.4 goals per game by 1996, so he’d be making a pretty strong case for himself by then.

When did he pass the baton to (presumably) Jimmy Clement? 2005 was a bit of a down year in terms of availability and Clement was an All-Australian in a really poor team. Rocca might have taken that mantle through 2006 and 2007 kicking over 50 goals in each, but there would be a bit of competition.

Did Travis Cloke ever get there? Didak? I think Cloke’s best years overlapped with Swan and Pendlebury’s…

Dane Swan would be my nomination during 2010 and 2011 followed by Pendlebury until probably 2019. Grundy would have his admirers in 2018 for sure, but I’m trying not to overreact to one good year in terms of the club’s “best player” rather than “best season”.

These last couple of years I don’t think we really have a player for opponents to fear anymore. Our best talent IMHO is probably Darcy Moore, but we just don’t have a marquee player and that’s reflected in our AA and Brownlow finishes.

1996-2004 Nathan Buckley
2005 James Clement
2006-2007 Anthony Rocca
2008 ?
2009-2012 Dane Swan
2013-2019 Scott Pendlebury
2020 ?
2021 ?

What do people think? Help fill the blanks and flesh the list out.

Swanny's run was probably 2008 to 2013.

Bout 6 years.

For a while there T.Cloke would also push his name up especially around the time of the gloves controversy he was marking everything and very dominant.

There was probably a season or so there that Treloar outshone pendles too. But never quite rook the button off him at the pies.

Think Moore is probably up there currently.

 

[Gone Critical]

Great overview GC, no argument from me. But you really think the latter?

No, but.......

 

[Vicky Park]

No, but.......

 

[jonbe54]

Late 60's to 74 McKenna. Was tempted to say Tuddy for some of that but McKenna was the most dangerous player we had. He kicked so many of our goals. Tuddy was the one who stopped him in the 70 GF and cost us a flag

75-77 Carmen. Much more than his stats say he was electric and could take a game by the throat at any moment. Head stopped him being a great.

78- 81 Peter Moore. Again a huge presence and could argue he passed Carmen in 77. Teams did a lot of planning around stopping him.

82- 84 Collingwood was on the fall but the younger version of Daicos was in full flower these years and boy what a sight.

85-87 Brian Taylor. Lean years and Daics sidelined, BT's 80, 100 and 60 goal hauls in those years made him a constant threat.

88-89 Daics back to his best as a mid was our most influential with Rowdy coming and Pants and Shawry the others

90 Tony Shaw. Could be Rowdy or Daics but Shaw this year was the glue and the Norm Smith

91-94 Rowdy - Loved him more than any other Pie, bled for the club. Champion

95 - 07 Bucks. The greatest Pie player ever.

08- 13 Swanny. Goal kicking champion mid. Hurt teams all the time

14 -21 Pendles Even as he dropped off in 2021 still most influential Pie. Hard to seperate he and Swanny, swannys highs higher but Pendles longer

22 Step forward ND, 2022 B&F

Total disagreement in the years 68-74.

John Greening quite literally tore teams apart regularly.

Macca was great but John was elite in the true sense of the word.

 

[Gone Critical]

Total disagreement in the years 68-74.

John Greening quite literally tore teams apart regularly.

Macca was great but John was elite in the true sense of the word.

Total disagreement???

I am a massive Greening fan, he could have been our greatest but you are gilding the lily here. 68 he was a 17 yo kid and played 15 impressive games. 73 he didnt play and 74 3 games.

Potentially he would have been the star of those years but it was stolen. But I cant agree he surpassed McKenna when McKenna went 64, 98, 143, 134 and 130 goals per year 1968-72 which were Johnny Greenings years. McKenna was clearly our most dangerous and influential player in that period. You are underrating him hugely.

 

[sideswipe]

Total disagreement???

I am a massive Greening fan, he could have been our greatest but you are gilding the lily here. 68 he was a 17 yo kid and played 15 impressive games. 73 he didnt play and 74 3 games.

Potentially he would have been the star of those years but it was stolen. But I cant agree he surpassed McKenna when McKenna went 64, 98, 143, 134 and 130 goals per year 1968-72 which were Johnny Greenings years. McKenna was clearly our most dangerous and influential player in that period. You are underrating him hugely.

Len Thompson also well ahead of Greening.

 

[Gone Critical]

Len Thompson also well ahead of Greening.

Wayne Richardson also.

 

[jonbe54]

Total disagreement???

I am a massive Greening fan, he could have been our greatest but you are gilding the lily here. 68 he was a 17 yo kid and played 15 impressive games. 73 he didnt play and 74 3 games.

Potentially he would have been the star of those years but it was stolen. But I cant agree he surpassed McKenna when McKenna went 64, 98, 143, 134 and 130 goals per year 1968-72 which were Johnny Greenings years. McKenna was clearly our most dangerous and influential player in that period. You are underrating him hugely.

GC I saw no mention of completed careers or even career length.

He was quite simply the finest player with the most complete skillset and athletic attributes I have seen playing for us in over 50 years of supporting.

I have to disagree about Macca - bloody great full forward - but really he was a one trick pony - mark on the lead and kick the goal. Nothing wrong with that to be sure but it doesn't compare to a player that regularly took TOWERING marks and could hit the ground ready to run, had a good side step, very good pace for his height and had a loooong boot on the run.

I loved Macca but John in his time simply tore the opposition apart regularly - THAT to me is being far more influential than being an ace goal kicker.

 

[Aussie pie]

Back in the 80’s, Peter Moore, Peter Daicos and dare I say it BT.

 

[Maggie Greg]

Some comments on Wayne Richardson.

Wayne Richardson was a champion through and through from his first game as an 18 year old in Round 4 1966 v Richmond. I was there. He kicked 4 goals as a rover.

He invented the screw kick around the corner with the helicopter spin. Both feet.

He was getting 35 kicks a game by mid-career.

Legend.

 

[Robroy22]

'50's it was Bob Rose. He was Leigh Matthews before Lethal arrived. Thorald Merrett was pretty special as well. Then Murray Weideman.

Early 60's Terry Waters arrived and Laurie Hill was a great player off half back.

Late 69's to 74 McKenna was our glamour boy BUT it was a star studded side, far and away the most talented Collingwood side of my seven decades. (How that team never won a flag is still beyond me). Des Tuddenham was another "Lethal" and led from the front, Thommo a great tap ruckman and formed a great duo with Jerker Jenkin. The Richardson brothers (Wayne was definitely the better of the two), Bubba Price, Ted Potter, Robbie Dean, Con Britt.

Greening however was on another level. He could win games from a wing! Yes McKenna had a great statistical record, but he finished their work. Players like Price, Greening, Tully and the Richardsons gave PMcK such service that he was expected to kick 6+ goals a week.

75-77 Carmen. Much more than his stats say he was electric and could take a game by the throat at any moment. Head stopped him being a great. I'd point to Ray Shaw also, as a very important Collingwood player of that era. A young country kid named William Picken had arrived by that stage as well!

78- 81 Peter Moore. Again a huge presence and could argue he passed Carmen in 77. Teams did a lot of planning around stopping him. Mark Williams was HUGE during those years and almost won us a GF in '81 off his own boot. Robbie Hyde was also a State defender around those times and Billy Picken had established himself as a star.

82- 84 Collingwood was on the fall but the younger version of Daicos was in full flower these years and boy what a sight. He WAS fun to watch wasn't he? So too was Mick Taylor a wonderful utility player from SA.

85-87 Brian Taylor. Lean years and Daics sidelined, BT's 80, 100 and 60 goal hauls in those years made him a constant threat. Greg Phillips was a class defender in his brief stint at the Pies, quite an influential player.

88-89 Daics back to his best as a mid was our most influential with Rowdy coming and Pants and Shawry the others and the rest of the "Class of '86 Reserves Premiership team"....Mick McGuane, Monkey and Crosisca

90 Tony Shaw. Could be Rowdy or Daics but Shaw this year was the glue and the Norm Smith

91-94 Rowdy - Loved him more than any other Pie, bled for the club. Champion

95 - 07 Bucks. The greatest Pie player ever. (Debatable, but you'll have plenty of support here...just not me!)

08- 13 Swanny. Goal kicking champion mid. Hurt teams all the time. Jolly and Ball made a huge difference. Dale Thomas was also stunning.

14 -21 Pendles Even as he dropped off in 2021 still most influential Pie. Hard to seperate he and Swanny, Swanny's highs higher but Pendles longer

22 Step forward ND, 2022 B&F