Religion The Bible: Literal, figurative, bulldust?

[Gethelred]

To clearly delineate conversation between threads, this thread is for specifically bible talk; if you're debating biblical historicity or lack of it, if you're talking interpretation, this is the thread for you.

Standard board rules apply. Go nuts.

 

[evolved2]

I wouldn't. I would rather be s*t than *** up premiership window for the past decade or so. What a wasted generation

Port look so good when they're on. They're one of my favourite teams to watch.

 

[Total Power]

Port look so good when they're on. They're one of my favourite teams to watch.

Except for JHF and Butters, we are a bunch of downhill skiing spuds. For the past decade, we struggled to beat the top teams. This is why we **** up the finals. Watch us beat up St kilda next week

 

[Rosscoe 17]

Yes make it about me, again.

Your name should be Mr Deflection.

I have quoted Christian sources, it's NOT mentioned in the Bible like you claim it is

You are the one deflecting. I have explained what I believe.

It is there for all to see.

 

[Total Power]

You are the one deflecting. I have explained what I believe.

It is there for all to see.

Your belief which isn't found in the Bible. You have not quoted the Bible. How did they know it's Moses and Elijah?

 

[evolved2]

Except for JHF and Butters, we are a bunch of downhill skiing spuds. For the past decade, we struggled to beat the top teams. This is why we **** up the finals. Watch us beat up St kilda next week

Reckon you need a hardass coach like Leigh Matthews to crack the whip and clean out the deadwood.

 

[Total Power]

Reckon you need a hardass coach like Leigh Matthews to crack the whip and clean out the deadwood.

Hinkley is busy finding the missing pieces to the puzzle for the past 5 years. I reckon Josh Carr will do well. Hinkley has to go.

 

[Rosscoe 17]

How can people make an informed choice if they don't understand psychology, biology, and church history?

Do you believe spiritual matters are taught in those subjects?

 

[Rosscoe 17]

Your belief which isn't found in the Bible. You have not quoted the Bible. How did they know it's Moses and Elijah?

I have quoted the bible.

Who told the apostles who Elijah was?

 

[Total Power]

I have quoted the bible.

Who told the apostles who Elijah was?

The writer claimed so. Doesn't state anything otherwise, i will tell you why.

It never actually happened. The scriptures say this was a vision. Matthew 17:9 - "And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."

Just like Moses had the vision, Paul had the vision, Joseph Smith had the vision.

All made up stories.

 

[Rosscoe 17]

The writer claimed so. Doesn't state anything otherwise, i will tell you why.

It never actually happened. The scriptures say this was a vision. Matthew 17:9 - "And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."

Just like Moses had the vision, Paul had the vision, Joseph Smith had the vision.

All made up stories.

It is a simple question.

Who told the apostles who Elijah was?

 

[Total Power]

It is a simple question.

Who told the apostles who Elijah was?

That's what i asked you. The Bible doesn't state. It's clearly the 'author' who tried to claim so without telling us how that happened. In other words the story is clearly false.

 

[Rosscoe 17]

Matthew 17:9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

10 The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”

11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to sufferat their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

 

[evolved2]

Do you believe spiritual matters are taught in those subjects?

I'd say they're all heavily applicable to spirituality for a Christian who wants THE TRUTH.

Anyway, I'm outta here. Another time.

 

[Rosscoe 17]

I'd say they're all heavily applicable to spirituality for a Christian who wants THE TRUTH.

Anyway, I'm outta here. Another time.

Explain to me what you believe spirituality is?

 

[Rosscoe 17]

Good night

 

[Total Power]

Matthew 17:9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

10 The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”

11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to sufferat their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

Rubbish.

John the Baptist denied he was Elijah in John 1:21. It doesn't answer my question at all. What's the connection?

Was Jesus lying? or Matthew was Pro-Jewish. Most scholars agree with me. It's rubbish.

It still doesn't answer my question about Moses. So John the Baptist is Elijah? huh? So what happened to Elijah?How are they supposed to recognise someone they have never seen appearing as someone else (John)? Do you even realise what you are saying? Jesus had just been having a chat with the genuine Elijah (Matt 17:1-9) on the mount of transfiguration.

According to the Bible, Elijah never died, although their physical body died. Elijah's soul is in heaven. Can't be Elijah. Anything to fulfill the prophecies hey?

All over the shop.

Again clearly a made up story.

 

[Rosscoe 17]

Rubbish.

John the Baptist denied he was Elijah in John 1:21. It doesn't answer my question at all. What's the connection?

Was Jesus lying? or Matthew was Pro-Jewish. Most scholars agree with me. It's rubbish.

It still doesn't answer my question about Moses. So John the Baptist is Elijah? huh? So what happened to Elijah?How are they supposed to recognise someone they have never seen appearing as someone else (John)? Do you even realise what you are saying? Jesus had just been having a chat with the genuine Elijah (Matt 17:1-9) on the mount of transfiguration.

According to the Bible, Elijah never died, although their physical body died. Elijah's soul is in heaven. Can't be Elijah. Anything to fulfill the prophecies hey?

All over the shop.

Again clearly a made up story.

John the Baptist was Elijah in spirit. When he was a man, he was not yet Spirit and hence why he denied it then.

The apostles knew John; so why didn’t they recognise him? Because they were not looking at men; they were looking at spirit.

Peter was talking to a light that shone like the sun. They could not see who it was; that applies to Moses aswell.

Matthew 17:2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here.


Jesus transfiguration makes him god. (Men cannot do that)

Jesus forgiving sin makes him god.
(Men cannot do that)

Like I said there is a truckload of scripture on this subject.

 

[Total Power]

John the Baptist was Elijah in spirit. When he was a man, he was not yet Spirit and hence why he denied it then.

Got any evidence of this? John was trying desperately hard to portray that John was not the Messiah, nor the Propht, throughout the entire chapter.

There's zero for your claims. Why not Moses in spirit (in someone else's body) but Elijah in spirit? Yet Elijah was spirit talking to Peter a while ago with Moses????? Nek minit, John the Baptist. Why?

i tell you why. Trying to fulfill one of the prophecies.

AND STILL you didn't answer my question, how did they recognise it was Moses?

Either way there's no Exodus and there's no Biblical Moses. So yeah made up stories clearly.

Jesus transfiguration makes him god. (Men cannot do that)

Jesus forgiving sin makes him god.
(Men cannot do that)

We have gone over this. Do you wish to go over this again? Jesus said he HAD AUTHORITY here on earth to do these things. Note: earth. Note: authority. Hardly God. He was divine, but not god. The authorities came for his father, the real God. This is why Trinity was invented, read a bit of Jerome, why don't you?

He didn't know many things, he didn't know why somethings happened for example. God by definition is ALL KNOWING.

God do not need authority, cause he IS THE AUTHORITY, not only on this earth but the universe. He doesn't need authority, nor he needs to ask anyone. He can do as he please.

Very very weak argument and none that actually helps you prove a point.

There's a truckload of scriptures on this

None that proves Jesus is God though. Start with John first:

"The father is greater than I".

Trinity states, they are co-equal. 100%.

So scriptures do not support your hypothesis.

Next, during transfiguration:

And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 5 He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son,[a] with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.”

Then again

"I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge…because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me"

Yeah, a person with AUTHORITY ONLY. He is not god.

AND AGAIN:

32 “But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.


AND AGAIN:

For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak

AND AGAIN.

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”[a] 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.


Clearly not God. 2 separate entities. You can keep playing verbal gymnastics with this, but these are what the Bible tells you.

 

[Total Power]

John the Baptist was Elijah in spirit. When he was a man, he was not yet Spirit and hence why he denied it then.

Here's a list of claims as per Bible about JBap. (including claims and obviously contradictions), as i said John desperately tries to move away from the whole Messiah/Prophet/Angel thing.

Rabbi: Gospel of John. 3:26.
Elijah: Luke 1: 17; John 1: 21, 25.
Messiah: JOhn 1:20, 25, 35 -42; 3: 28; Luke 3: 15.
Prophet: Mark 11:32; Matt 11: 9; Matt 14: 5; Matt 21:26; John 1:21, 25.
Messenger or an Angel: Mark 1: 2-3; Matt 11 :10; Luke 9: 27.
Jesus is the resurrected John: Mark 6: 14; Matthew 14:2; Luke 9 :7.

Yeah goodluck trying to make sense of who and what he has. As i said, all a made up story just like Exodus.

 

[Rosscoe 17]

Here's a list of claims as per Bible about JBap. (including claims and obviously contradictions), as i said John desperately tries to move away from the whole Messiah/Prophet/Angel thing.

Rabbi: Gospel of John. 3:26.
Elijah: Luke 1: 17; John 1: 21, 25.
Messiah: JOhn 1:20, 25, 35 -42; 3: 28; Luke 3: 15.
Prophet: Mark 11:32; Matt 11: 9; Matt 14: 5; Matt 21:26; John 1:21, 25.
Messenger or an Angel: Mark 1: 2-3; Matt 11 :10; Luke 9: 27.
Jesus is the resurrected John: Mark 6: 14; Matthew 14:2; Luke 9 :7.

This feels like your work TP; because it is awesome.


Was John:
Rabbi: Yes
Elijah: Yes in spirit
Messiah: No
Prophet: Yes
Messenger or an Angel: Yes a divine messenger. I have seen no scripture on him being an angel.
Jesus is the resurrected John: No

 

[evolved2]

Explain to me what you believe spirituality is?

My version of spirituality is going to be very different to yours as it's based on naturalism rather than supernaturalism.

My point is that your version can't be real if it's based on falsehoods and known psychological tricks. You'll have to dig a bit deeper if you really want truth - a vast majority of theists are more interested in comfort than truth, and it shows in this thread.

 

[Rosscoe 17]

My version of spirituality is going to be very different to yours as it's based on naturalism rather than supernaturalism.

My point is that your version can't be real if it's based on falsehoods and known psychological tricks. You'll have to dig a bit deeper if you really want truth - a vast majority of theists are more interested in comfort than truth, and it shows in this thread.

My spirituality is a recognition that we are more than flesh and blood and have a soul that is eternal.

 

[Total Power]

This feels like your work TP; because it is awesome.


Was John:
Rabbi: Yes
Elijah: Yes in spirit
Messiah: No
Prophet: Yes
Messenger or an Angel: Yes a divine messenger. I have seen no scripture on him being an angel.
Jesus is the resurrected John: No

I have quoted the verses, check it for yourself, many contradictory claims.

There is still a group now in Iraq that worships John the Baptist as the final Prophet, they are Gnostic and most think they are from around Jerusalem/Jordan river around 1CE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeans#Religion

https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-10...ts-worship-john-baptist-theyre-not-christians

See Joel Marcus, John the Baptist in History and Theology

Marcus writes

It is unlikely that John saw Jesus as the Messiah on the basis of what happened at Jesus’s baptism. If he had, it would be difficult to explain a tradition found later in the Gospels of Matthew (11:2-6) and Luke (7:18-23) according to which John, in prison under sentence of death, sent messengers to Jesus to ask whether or not he was the Messiah. The tradition gives the impression that this was the first time that question had occurred to John, and it does not record that he was convinced by Jesus’s answer. John, then, probably did not become a believer in Jesus’s messiahship, either at Jesus’s baptism or subsequently. Rather than being focused on Jesus, John saw his own ministry of preaching and baptism as the turning point in salvation history. He himself was the “main man.” When people came to him at the River Jordan and received baptism at his hands, they entered into the new age of God’s dominion, in which they experienced forgiveness of sins—as symbolized by the “washing” of baptism.

My work or not why does it matter? i read a lot of theology and i read both sides of the argument unlike you.

I learned so much from Roy and he quotes a lot of historians and scholars. I don't mind, you seem to be hellbent on 'write your own stuff'. It doesn't matter as i said, i will post as i see fit, i KNOW what i am talking about, this is different from blind copy pasting like you guys do about science.

I knew Jesus never claimed to be God before i read Ehrman btw.

 

[Vdubs]

My spirituality is a recognition that we are more than flesh and blood and have a soul that is eternal.

That is the essence. No matter how much they bicker about history and the Bible, and inconsistencies, they can not explain why and how we have a soul and a conscience, and a desire to know why and how we are here, and moreover, a desire to know God.
Also, no matter what they say, they ALL want to know God. It is blatantly obvious just by the hours of posting and arguing here; subconsciously hoping we drop the missing ingredient that may help them think it is possible.

 

[Total Power]

That is the essence. No matter how much they bicker about history and the Bible, and inconsistencies, they can not explain why and how we have a soul and a conscience, and a desire to know why and how we are here, and moreover, a desire to know God.
Also, no matter what they say, they ALL want to know God. It is blatantly obvious just by the hours of posting and arguing here; subconsciously hoping we drop the missing ingredient that may help them think it is possible.

Yeah postulating, again. Surprise surprise. . Don't speak on behalf of me and others. I have no desire to know about 'man made' personal Gods, which are clearly false and figment of imagination and lies propagated by your heathens. You assume i wish to know, that would be wrong.

My search for truth continues as truth is not found in the Bible.

and inconsistencies you say? more like made up lies. Just like Trinity.