Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

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4flagsin5yrs

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Dec 30, 2020
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Haha some people.. Dow and LOB aren't deadest superstars at the ripe old age of 21, DELIST

LOB hasn't even played 40 games ffs, people already calling to trade him and burn him at the stake, same with Dow too.

Need to get to the 23-25, 100+ game mark and then send them out to pasture if still no good.

Give them time, good god.

LOB getting called soft too when he was the only one to run in and stick up for Docherty in the Richmond game and ended up against Balta.

Pretty sure people were saying Weiterbot was no good in the early days too. :drunk:
Yes and no.

The problem is unless they both lift their output considerably (and pretty quickly) they won't ever play 100 games.

Others will pass them by.
 

SkyhorseTamer

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I'm sure you can remember his goal to win the game from last year? Except, earlier in the game he essentially gifted them two goals earlier, due to an inability to find a target out of back fifty.

He's played 14 games. It's not anything resembling a decent sample size to put him above or below LOB in the pecking order. What he is and how he seems is promising, in the way that fans like.

As I said, we'll see.
I've seen the same from Lob too though - they're also playing the hardest position in our structure. I think Cotters is a fine kick but with our structure if the wingers are in D50 and tight to a boundary their options are generally sh*t. Harry is almost always 75 metres down the line :/
 

Gethelred

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I've seen the same from Lob too though - they're also playing the hardest position in our structure. I think Cotters is a fine kick but with our structure if the wingers are in D50 and tight to a boundary their options are generally sh*t. Harry is almost always 75 metres down the line :/
I don't disagree, exactly. What I see from LOB - more than almost anyone on the list - is development and character. He was a shellshocked teenager in his first few games, incapable of playing at the level or dealing with pressure.

Then, he got better. He made a mistake? He'd go in harder, and harder, desperate to fix it, determined to make things right. And such would last the rest of the game. He's stronger, faster, has come a thumping long way since he got drafted, and last year was a development void.

As I said to BigBreakfast above, it depends on how the coaches view the role he is to play, and what they're unwilling to compromise on. They need that contested game from a wing, Carroll or SPS; they want someone more pressure oriented, Philp or even Fogarty; they want disposal, gut running, speed, LOB.

It's part of why, when I see the posts of 'we need another rebuild', '20 years for jack squat!', it makes me roll my eyes. For the first time in my memory, we have options. We can choose to build a team properly for once. We have a backlog of decent/AFL capable players, and we don't have enough space in the 22 for them all.
 

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CJMB

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Consistent in the fact that he hasn’t been able to force his inclusion in the side, nor has he excelled in reserves reports as demanding selection.

Cottrell offers size, commitment and fervour that LOB just hasn’t displayed, evidenced again on the weekend. No doubt he hadn’t displayed his capacity yet and I hope he does because Carlton will be better for it. He, like any youngster, probably deserves more than one off hits. Demonstrates that Teague doesn’t have faith in an extrapolated inclusion.

I only referred to Walsh because he played outside in a wing role last year and demonstrated to LOB and others what is required to succeed in these roles, run and hunt possessions, support defensively and hurt by foot.

He did get an game at the end of last year took just one off though, hardly fair to the lad.
Cottrell is listed as 181 and 72kg, I'd hardly say that's offering size.

Cottrell will play the defensive wing role, on the far side probably a good 30m off the play, and be responsible for guarding space and either sweeping back to add numbers or getting forward to fill space and provide an outlet kick (which is predominantly a 'non kick' option, more an attempt to spread the opp defenders). Even when Walsh was playing wing he was rarely in the graveyard that can be the 'fat side' winger; that's the Tom Scully ran 18km for 15 disposals role.

I don't mind Cottrell in our current setup playing that def wing role. Hard to tell after last week, we controlled the game from about the 2 minute mark, but it felt like he added to our system and cohesion in transition. It was sure as hell an improvement over having Ed and Setters attempt the same thing.

His VFL write-up was pretty good, ideally he can stay fit (unlike last year with that hip and extra kegs from attempting to beef him up) and continue to work on and improve his play in the reserves. We could really use a player like him in the seniors, it's now on him to continue to work on both sides of his game and push for selection.

4. Lochie O’Brien
Stats: 15 disposals, six inside 50s, one goal

Lochie played wing all through the day. His strength is his running ability, which became really evident towards the second half and even more so in the last quarter where he was running rings around the opposition on a really hot day. He certainly excelled in the later part of quarters and towards the end of the day as well. His kicking was maybe the best I’ve seen it, particularly in the front half inside 50: his ability to hit up our forwards, whether it be hitting leads or just kicking into space, was a real strength of his game. Lochie still just needs to make sure defensively that we’re getting the job done, in terms of taking out the opposition’s options and tackling with intent. Overall, he was a weapon for us.
 

katmanblue

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Nov 27, 2016
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Haha some people.. Dow and LOB aren't deadest superstars at the ripe old age of 21, DELIST

LOB hasn't even played 40 games ffs, people already calling to trade him and burn him at the stake, same with Dow too.

Need to get to the 23-25, 100+ game mark and then send them out to pasture if still no good.

Give them time, good god.

LOB getting called soft too when he was the only one to run in and stick up for Docherty in the Richmond game and ended up against Balta.

Pretty sure people were saying Weiterbot was no good in the early days too. :drunk:
That's 50+ games of carrying someone that's not up to it?

Taking a spot that someone else (Stocker, Philp, Cuningham, Ramsay, Kemp, Carroll all looking for Gametime) can use to be developed.

When do those guys get a go?
 

Gethelred

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That's 50+ games of carrying someone that's not up to it?

Taking a spot that someone else (Stocker, Philp, Cuningham, Ramsay, Kemp, Carroll all looking for Gametime) can use to be developed.

When do those guys get a go?
Hopefully soon, but it's a mite disingenuous to assert that Carroll, Stocker or Kemp aren't getting ones gametime because of LOB, or that Cuningham hasn't gotten a decent crack at it.

He's competing with Newnes for a position, Newnes or the rotating other wing (Curnow, Setterfield, Williamson, Williams, Martin).
 

Original Moody Blue

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Sydney were never "years behind us".
They were last season. Stuck with an injured Buddy and a 2 year 1.5 mill back-ended contract, and having to offload players. They put our incompetent Board to shame. Nobody predicted their rise and realistically they were pencilled in for a bottom 4 finish in 2021. How many times has Sydney bottomed out??? Won 2 premierships, played in another 2 losing Grand finals and numerous finals series in the past 20 years. Carlton has managed to win 5 wooden spoons, had numerous first-round draft picks, into the 6th year of a rebuild and our 7th coach in 20 years, and we are still no certainties to play finals in 2021. We endured turning over half a GWS team and gave GWS great first round picks as they offloaded all of their dead wood. Remember Kristian Jaksch? Gave up pick 9 for him. Still waiting to see if Stocker is going to do anything...Cost us a first round draft pick on the basis that he was a steal. Has he been in jail, because I have not seen or heard about him.

Excluding the expansion teams, we are behind Melbourne, St.Kilda and Fremantle as teams that have the longest period without winning a premiership.

You will excuse me if I say I have seen all of this before.
 

SkyhorseTamer

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He was a shellshocked teenager in his first few games, incapable of playing at the level or dealing with pressure.

Then, he got better. He made a mistake? He'd go in harder, and harder, desperate to fix it, determined to make things right. And such would last the rest of the game. He's stronger, faster, has come a thumping long way since he got drafted, and last year was a development void.
I'm yet to see this - he still looks slow of mind which i think is that shellshocked issue.
It's part of why, when I see the posts of 'we need another rebuild', '20 years for jack squat!', it makes me roll my eyes. For the first time in my memory, we have options. We can choose to build a team properly for once. We have a backlog of decent/AFL capable players, and we don't have enough space in the 22 for them all.
We're very close to it all clicking overall, the rebuild has been successful it's just down to whether we can fine tune and develop well enough and as you say we don't have enough space in the 22 anyway. We will likely lose some players soon.
 

thylacine60

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They were last season. Stuck with an injured Buddy and a 2 year 1.5 mill back-ended contract, and having to offload players. They put our incompetent Board to shame. Nobody predicted their rise and realistically they were pencilled in for a bottom 4 finish in 2021. How many times has Sydney bottomed out??? Won 2 premierships, played in another 2 losing Grand finals and numerous finals series in the past 20 years. Carlton has managed to win 5 wooden spoons, had numerous first-round draft picks, into the 6th year of a rebuild and our 7th coach in 20 years, and we are still no certainties to play finals in 2021. We endured turning over half a GWS team and gave GWS great first round picks as they offloaded all of their dead wood. Remember Kristian Jaksch? Gave up pick 9 for him. Still waiting to see if Stocker is going to do anything...Cost us a first round draft pick on the basis that he was a steal. Has he been in jail, because I have not seen or heard about him.

Excluding the expansion teams, we are behind Melbourne, St.Kilda and Fremantle as teams that have the longest period without winning a premiership.

You will excuse me if I say I have seen all of this before.
Why excuse you? I've heard all this before. It's important you understand you and your miserable ilk (not elk, he's ok just frets a bit) are the reason reasonable Carlton supporters move seats at the game.
 

Gethelred

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They were last season. Stuck with an injured Buddy and a 2 year 1.5 mill back-ended contract, and having to offload players. They put our incompetent Board to shame. Nobody predicted their rise and realistically they were pencilled in for a bottom 4 finish in 2021. How many times has Sydney bottomed out??? Won 2 premierships, played in another 2 losing Grand finals and numerous finals series in the past 20 years. Carlton has managed to win 5 wooden spoons, had numerous first-round draft picks, into the 6th year of a rebuild and our 7th coach in 20 years, and we are still no certainties to play finals in 2021. We endured turning over half a GWS team and gave GWS great first round picks as they offloaded all of their dead wood. Remember Kristian Jaksch? Gave up pick 9 for him. Still waiting to see if Stocker is going to do anything...Cost us a first round draft pick on the basis that he was a steal. Has he been in jail, because I have not seen or heard about him.

Excluding the expansion teams, we are behind Melbourne, St.Kilda and Fremantle as teams that have the longest period without winning a premiership.

You will excuse me if I say I have seen all of this before.
You will have to excuse me if I say I've heard it all before.

What is it about this board that necessitates the going over of old news, over and over and over again? Do we have to reiterate every six weeks why we chose to rebuild in 2015? Do we have to discuss how lacklustre the club was at identifying and developing talent? Do we need to talk about how suspect our decision making was behind closed doors, or about how much say some of the externalities were having over significant decisions? Do we need to do this every single time?

We. Were. f’ed.

We had no talent, outside of Doch and Cripps. We had the third oldest list in the comp, and we were bottom 4. Our coaching, drafting, injury management were still playing the game as though it was 2009.

You are comparing what the club had to do in the years since to the second best development setup in the AFL, aided for the majority of the time you cite by the COLA (which allowed them to retain players during a downturn). The AFL needs Sydney to be decent, otherwise fans in Sydney - NSW people, not ex Vics - will drop off. They don't need us in quite the same way; what they get from us, they can get from any of the big 4.

We had to rebuild everything: club culture, rehab, list management (often, whilst still using what was there; SOS had carte blanche when he began, where now we have a full department) and the board. We've began stuff like Carlton Respects; we launched our AFLW side; we've worked with government to get Princes Park redone. We have paid our historical debt, we have a standalone VFL side. And we now have more AFL capable players in all positions than 2000; more talent, more variety, better age demographic with the potential to get younger again next year.

Sydney didn't have to rebuild their club, and Sydney's rebuild did not start last year. They picked up Heeney and Mills in consecutive seasons; Florent, Cunningham, Hayward, Hewitt, McCartin, Papley, Sinclair, Naismith, Lloyd; then, you've the ones they let go; Newman, Ronke and Aliir. When they chose to rebuild, they moved players on, retiring McVeigh, Grundy, Shaw and Jack, trading Malcheski, Mitchell, Jetta and Hannebury. They've taken more or less 5-6 years to successfully - and let's put a bit of an addendum on that; they've played 3 good games - refresh their list. They've done it well, but they were not much chop last year or the year before; to say this has come from no-where or that they've 'suddenly' leapfrogged us is to show that you either don't pay attention at best, or demonstrate willful ignorance at worst.

The task we sought to undertake was harder by far than what they attempted, with assistance. While I can appreciate impatience, without an alternative case being made for a different path one cannot bemoan things as they stand.

Or if one does, one is whining.
 
Last edited:

Original Moody Blue

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Why excuse you? I've heard all this before. It's important you understand you and your miserable ilk (not elk, he's ok just frets a bit) are the reason reasonable Carlton supporters move seats at the game.
How dare I demand a reasonable standard of our Board and not just meekly accept the appalling situation that this once great club has found itself in. I am sick and tired of the apologists like you who go to great lengths to ignore everything that has occurred. If we do not make finals in 2021 (and we probably won't) the Board will sack Teague and probably appoint Ross Lyon, primarily because of his close association to the faceless cabal that pulls the strings. Now go away and confer with your faceless apologists.
 

JustaBattler

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Starting mids are Cripps | Williams| Walsh in the guts with Newman on one wing and pick a player that can run like Cottrell on the other fat side - and the only one we have is LoB. Neither Setterfield or Ed have the kicking game to play fat side and their best football is on ball. Ed will be the preferred starting on baller over Setterfield.

Setterfield| Cuningham | Kennedy | Stocker | Philp | Carroll | Honey are all vying for one position and that is curently being played by Dow - rotating forward /mid.

This position gets taken away as soon as Fisher/Martin/McGovern are all back - because Martin and Fogarty can already rotate into mid as can Fisher...

Carlton is going to have a very strong VFL team - finally.
 

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Gethelred

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How dare I demand a reasonable standard of our Board and not just meekly accept the appalling situation that this once great club has found itself in.
Rhetoric. You running for office?
I am sick and tired of the apologists like you who go to great lengths to ignore everything that has occurred.
Now, that's an interesting statement, because from where I see it you're dismissing anything and everything done to see us improve over the last 5 years.

As I said above, it's either willful ignorance or you simply do not pay attention. Pick whichever poison suits best.
If we do not make finals in 2021 (and we probably won't) the Board will sack Teague and probably appoint Ross Lyon, primarily because of his close association to the faceless cabal that pulls the strings.
Cool.
 

BlueJet

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19 of murphs 42 possessions this year have resulted in scores. Apparently that is ranked as elite.
I know it doesn't fit the pre conceived narrative that many have though.
bUt hE's sOft... *control c* *control v*
He's a far cry from what he was but he above anyone else on our list, steps up in key moments of games.

Potting Murphy: it's been done enough that it's become acceptable no matter what he has done or will do going forward.
 

CJMB

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They were last season. Stuck with an injured Buddy and a 2 year 1.5 mill back-ended contract, and having to offload players. They put our incompetent Board to shame. Nobody predicted their rise and realistically they were pencilled in for a bottom 4 finish in 2021. How many times has Sydney bottomed out??? Won 2 premierships, played in another 2 losing Grand finals and numerous finals series in the past 20 years. Carlton has managed to win 5 wooden spoons, had numerous first-round draft picks, into the 6th year of a rebuild and our 7th coach in 20 years, and we are still no certainties to play finals in 2021. We endured turning over half a GWS team and gave GWS great first round picks as they offloaded all of their dead wood. Remember Kristian Jaksch? Gave up pick 9 for him. Still waiting to see if Stocker is going to do anything...Cost us a first round draft pick on the basis that he was a steal. Has he been in jail, because I have not seen or heard about him.

Excluding the expansion teams, we are behind Melbourne, St.Kilda and Fremantle as teams that have the longest period without winning a premiership.

You will excuse me if I say I have seen all of this before.
theres a fair bit there that involves different regimes, Jacksch was pre SOS.

Stocker left the hub last year, he’s not Sydney Stack.

There’s been a bit of talk of him this year in the reserves. Sounds like he’s going alright, seems to have about 25 and a goal or two most weeks. Reckon he’s a chance to get back into the side soon.
 

thylacine60

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You will have to excuse me if I say I've heard it all before.

What is it about this board that necessitates the going over of old news, over and over and over again? Do we have to reiterate every six weeks why we chose to rebuild in 2015? Do we have to discuss how lacklustre the club was at identifying and developing talent? Do we need to talk about how suspect our decision making was behind closed doors, or about how much say some of the externalities were having over significant decisions? Do we need to do this every single time?

We. Were. f’ed.

We had no talent, outside of Doch and Cripps. We had the third oldest list in the comp, and we were bottom 4. Our coaching, drafting, injury management were still playing the game as though it was 2009.

You are comparing what the club had to do in the years since to the second best development setup in the AFL, aided for the majority of the time you cite by the COLA (which allowed them to retain players during a downturn). The AFL needs Sydney to be decent, otherwise fans in Sydney - NSW people, not ex Vics - will drop off. They don't need us in quite the same way; what they get from us, they can get from any of the big 4.

We had to rebuild everything: club culture, rehab, list management (often, whilst still using what was there; SOS had carte blanche when he began, where now we have a full department) and the board. We've began stuff like Carlton Respects; we launched our AFLW side; we've worked with government to get Princes Park redone. We have paid our historical debt, we have a standalone VFL side. And we now have more AFL capable players in all positions than 2000; more talent, more variety, better age demographic with the potential to get younger again next year.

Sydney didn't have to rebuild their club, and Sydney's rebuild did not start last year. They picked up Heeney and Mills in consecutive seasons; Florent, Cunningham, Hayward, Hewitt, McCartin, Papley, Sinclair, Naismith, Lloyd; then, you've the ones they let go; Newman, Ronke and Aliir. When they chose to rebuild, they moved players on, retiring McVeigh, Grundy, Shaw and Jack, trading Malcheski, Mitchell, Jetta and Hannebury. They've taken more or less 5-6 years to successfully - and let's put a bit of an addendum on that; they've played 3 good games - refresh their list. They've done it well, but they were not much chop last year or the year before; to say this has come from no-where or that they've 'suddenly' leapfrogged us is to show that you either don't pay attention at best, or demonstrate willful ignorance at worst.

The task we sought to undertake was harder by far than what they attempted, with assistance. While I can appreciate impatience, without an alternative case being made for a different path one cannot bemoan things as they stand.

Or if one does, one is whining.
just said that
 

therubbernub

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We needed to replace Kreuzer with another experienced ruckman. If Pitto goes down we're in trouble, and Pitto shouldn't be first ruck anyway.
I agree that we now need to start thinking about KPP/rucks again. SOC has topped up our smalls and mids, and by the end of 2021 we should have a good handle on their progress. Best case is that all our young mids take a step up and we have real depth, Marchbank and charlie , make successful comebacks, TDK and Mitch remain injury free, Parks continues on his promising debut.
Levis luke warm start to 2021 highlights our fragile KPP stocks, when we have a string of injuries to our talls. But arguably, most clubs would struggle to cover the loss of their ruckman, 2 of the top 3 forwards and a great intercept defender.

I feel that SOS's greatest strength was KPP's- bringing in Charlie, Harry, Weiters, TDK, barely a miss hit with prime picks. But his attempts at rebuilding our midfield have been less than stella. I think Walsh picked himself, and we shouldnt really give sos too much credit for that pick. But if we look at his other midfield prime picks, the story gets murkier
2015: DC pick 23
2016: SPS pick 6
2017: Dow pick 3 LOB pick 10
2018: Walsh pick 1, Stocker pick 19
2019: kemp pick 17, Philp pick 20
Aside from Walsh, there is not one prime pick that has shown anything more than "promising"
 

therubbernub

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I think what Austin is doing now is thoroughly easier than what SOS was doing.

We'll see.
Yes and no. SOS had carte blanche to trade players and lots of low draft picks to work with. He also had so many holes to fill, that he could chase whowever he wanted and "fill a hole".
SOC on the other hand, has many less holes to fill, has to be far more targeted and hasnt had the low draft picks *
IMO Saad, Williams and Fogarty look like fantastic uses of our picks, and the resultant pick downgrades* have netted us some quite promising young smalls in durdin and carroll
 

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