Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

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BigFrizz36

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I try and make some comments based on how I've seen the game or on various players in various threads.

Game day threads | Autopsies | Previews- generally speaking dont get into too much detail about the opposition- which is a shame - since that is the task at hand.

eg there seems to be a consensus view that Suns should be easy beats- I disagree based on the way they have been playing and some of the elite talent they have in areas where we won't be able to match them.

eg they will destroy Murphy and Dow through their HBFnks - Lukosius and Markovic are elite talents - arguably better than Docherty Saad combo we have. King up front for mine is a far better prospect than Harry - again just based on how he moves and plays his role.

There are a few of us who like to look at stuff like this but you have to have the time to go through all the commentary to find specific examples of some form of analytical attempt.

I was absolutely crushed watching the way Teague was outcoached by Buckley in the Collingwood game - that game has made me seriously question Carlton's ability to seriously consider how good opposition is likely to set up against us.

Games like Fremantle are good for the win - but they were so undermanned that a loss would have been a disaster so I don't take too much out of it except for new player input into the win - where Parks/Cottrell - were definitely value-added contributors AND the disapointing fact that they won the second half....Teague should have pressed for a large win for percentage imapct if nothing else.

If we beat Suns ( big if) and one of Port and or Brisbane we are back on track - but right now we have a lot of weak links in the side to be exploited by opposition coaches via match ups and game plan.
Is Markovic Markov? If so he is a long, long way away from being elite. Got some pace but average decision maker/kick, average moustache. Tigers off loaded him for a a future 3rd that they are unlikely to use. I would take Docherty or Saad over 5 Markov's. Lukosius is an elite kick and can hurt you if allowed. I would say he is a an average competitor though.

I agree that the Collingwood game was disappointing but it doesn't define our season. Each match is 4.54% of our year.

I would argue that we were more undermanned than Freo last weekend with Charlie, Jack Martin, Zac Fisher, Setters, Marchy, TDK, Mitch McG unavailable or coming back from injury. All would either be in our best 22 or have strong claims to be.
 

JustaBattler

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Is Markovic Markov? If so he is a long, long way away from being elite. Got some pace but average decision maker/kick, average moustache. Tigers off loaded him for a a future 3rd that they are unlikely to use. I would take Docherty or Saad over 5 Markov's. Lukosius is an elite kick and can hurt you if allowed. I would say he is a an average competitor though.

I agree that the Collingwood game was disappointing but it doesn't define our season. Each match is 4.54% of our year.

I would argue that we were more undermanned than Freo last weekend with Charlie, Jack Martin, Zac Fisher, Setters, Marchy, TDK, Mitch McG unavailable or coming back from injury. All would either be in our best 22 or have strong claims to be.
Sorry yes Markov - watched his game on the weekend was in their bests along with Lukosius. couldnt care less what the tuggers do or dont do with players tbh...my point is that Suns arent easy beats and the outcome isnt a given...

Who says Collingwood 'defined' our season? - the next 3-6 games will do that...but I make no apologies for being very dispaointed with the way Collingwood were allowed to play

Fremantle's tallest defender came in at waist high to Harry was a bit of an advantage I would say..we alsop got very much teh run of the green as far as frees went...
 

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Gethelred

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Look at Justin Leppitsch's comments on SEN re: LOB and to a lesser extent Dow.




I've been seduced by O'Briens skill by foot and i think that there are plenty out there that look great in the APS when its all sanitised and pretty but when he comes up against the big dogs he looks meek and unwilling.

Think Josh Schache and you get the idea. Guys that peaked in high school?
I think you're being a mite unfair with that comparison. Schache never wanted footy as a career, IIRC; liked the attention, and he lacked a standout attribute as a KPF, being just a little better than average at a lot of things but not exceptional at anything. If you were going to make a comparison between Schache and a player from Carlton, Setterfield is who I'd choose; a player who is just above average in every way. O'Brien is not that player; he is faster than average, a very good kick, and has more mongrel per kilo than most human beings.

His problem is that he's never had any space at Carlton, no-one to let him collect easy disposals on the wing by being in the right spots at the right time or through competent clearance work. He's only ever gotten the ball under pressure, which is manifestly not his game. And at no point has there been any suggestion that LOB is not working his arse off to make this work; if anything, there's indications he's worked too hard.

Would, that people left the young and the developing players alone.
 

Ash24

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Harry currently coming 3rd in the Coleman. But with 21 scoring shots over the last 3 weeks, could he have been leading the lot?

Screen Shot 2021-04-06 at 1.27.01 pm.png
 

Blue Pulse

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Interesting points about the academies, but I feel you might be overstating the benefits in a few of those points. All of the kids who play in the championships, TAC cup, school footy have a lot of time and resources pumped in to them, they train and play most of the year.

That being said, I’m surprised that the Swans and other clubs academies aren’t included in the soft cap, I actually support the use of academies but I would have thought if it’s exempt from the soft cap, it would go against the whole reason it was brought in.

Lastly, how dumb are the other 17 clubs recruiters? How is Gulden going in the 30s?
Correct in what you say, however all clubs have access to these players. Sydney have brought up these players, no there ins and outs and then get to match picks on academy players.
 

BlueJet

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tbh I have not heard another draftee pre draft say that publicly - really impressed me at the time. Especially with him knowing that it was likely he goes to a bottom side in rebuild mode. I can aslo remember reading people's specualtions on here about which players were being targetted- Walsh copping the 'vanilla' tag.
Love to hear it - there's something special about a bit of loyalty.
The vanilla comment was never a knock on him, more that he was good at everything but without 1 standout trait or significant x-factor, this remains the case but I for one am certainly not complaining.
All things going to plan Walsh, will be our next skipper.
 

CarltonBlooz

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I think you're being a mite unfair with that comparison. Schache never wanted footy as a career, IIRC; liked the attention, and he lacked a standout attribute as a KPF, being just a little better than average at a lot of things but not exceptional at anything. If you were going to make a comparison between Schache and a player from Carlton, Setterfield is who I'd choose; a player who is just above average in every way. O'Brien is not that player; he is faster than average, a very good kick, and has more mongrel per kilo than most human beings.

His problem is that he's never had any space at Carlton, no-one to let him collect easy disposals on the wing by being in the right spots at the right time or through competent clearance work. He's only ever gotten the ball under pressure, which is manifestly not his game. And at no point has there been any suggestion that LOB is not working his arse off to make this work; if anything, there's indications he's worked too hard.

Would, that people left the young and the developing players alone.
Haha some people.. Dow and LOB aren't deadest superstars at the ripe old age of 21, DELIST

LOB hasn't even played 40 games ffs, people already calling to trade him and burn him at the stake, same with Dow too.

Need to get to the 23-25, 100+ game mark and then send them out to pasture if still no good.

Give them time, good god.

LOB getting called soft too when he was the only one to run in and stick up for Docherty in the Richmond game and ended up against Balta.

Pretty sure people were saying Weiterbot was no good in the early days too. :drunk:
 
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DangerousD

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The evidence of shortcomings on certain favoured players like Murphy is overwhelming as far as defensive cost to team performance. Same can be said of playing Levi injured, or playing Setterfield on a wing - where he is mostly useless and embarrassing.
I totally agree here, but For the life of me, can’t work out why, if they are as you say they are, do they keep getting picked? Are we not mature or strong enough to make the decisions to drop them? Would a Clarkson or Lyon be still picking them?

What is the match committee saying when discussing these players?

I haven’t watched the game again and I know the eye test can be misleading but I didn’t see a greater attack on the player with the ball compared to the Collingwood game and I didn’t think we were dangerous at all when the ball hit the deck in the forward 50, the next few weeks will be very interesting as far as coaching goes.
 

JustaBattler

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I totally agree here, but For the life of me, can’t work out why, if they are as you say they are, do they keep getting picked? Are we not mature or strong enough to make the decisions to drop them? Would a Clarkson or Lyon be still picking them?

What is the match committee saying when discussing these players?

I haven’t watched the game again and I know the eye test can be misleading but I didn’t see a greater attack on the player with the ball compared to the Collingwood game and I didn’t think we were dangerous at all when the ball hit the deck in the forward 50, the next few weeks will be very interesting as far as coaching goes.
Off the top of my head with a side note to start with: Sometimes all it takes is the cumulative effect of small incremental changes/improvements to deliver good results

if luck is also on your side - all the better as in Fremntle didnt have Fyfe as a forward target or monster clearance specialist they also lacked a defender tall enough to handle Harry ( still wearing an ankle brace but obviously moving better) - Levi actually stayed out of the way and did some crashing, Eddie Betts (a new inclusion) added enormous ground ball pressure and smart blocks - Cottrell totally stymied their outside run on his side with his gut running ( new inclusion) Newnes had a very good game on the other side, Park ( debutant) played a very solid first up game and will only get better Cripps ( now much fitter) smashed them in clearances Fogarty ( 7 tackles , a goal etc had a break out game) Jones ( playing CHB totally dominated their resting ruck with massive intercept marking and a few excellent bullet passes to set up goals) Walsh ( had a career best 39 disposals ) and we got some easy goals gifted from a freekick count strongly our way - in particular Harry ( finally) got some free kick relief from all the scragging he has been copping ....better smoother transition with ball in hand between the arcs amongst mids and field kicking generally lifted across the board ( see the number of uncontested possession differential)

To me it looked like more of the things that were tried previously actually worked and combined with BOG type performances from Jones/Walsh/Cripps/Fogarty and Harry - it was too much for an undermnanned and maybe tired from last weeks efforts Fremantle - and even their attempted lift of aggressiveness was met with equal determination in Q3

I think pressure and attack on ball carriers were significantly higher - but it was also slicker execution that also contributed. Still a lot of forward play was scrappy and grinding - better that than no pay-off as was seen in the Collingwood game- and then rebound goals against - Fremantle weren't able to construct clean entries for the most part- therefore you'd have to say that the overall defensive effort produced better results ( disapointed with how the team actually eased off and allowed Fremantle to score some 4thQ goals )

Lets see wether similar effort will result in another win - the Port and Brisbane games will be even greater tests of sustainable improvement - ease off against them in the final quarter and we get beat for sure.
 

The Return of the Paf

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I think you're being a mite unfair with that comparison. Schache never wanted footy as a career, IIRC; liked the attention, and he lacked a standout attribute as a KPF, being just a little better than average at a lot of things but not exceptional at anything. If you were going to make a comparison between Schache and a player from Carlton, Setterfield is who I'd choose; a player who is just above average in every way. O'Brien is not that player; he is faster than average, a very good kick, and has more mongrel per kilo than most human beings.

His problem is that he's never had any space at Carlton, no-one to let him collect easy disposals on the wing by being in the right spots at the right time or through competent clearance work. He's only ever gotten the ball under pressure, which is manifestly not his game. And at no point has there been any suggestion that LOB is not working his arse off to make this work; if anything, there's indications he's worked too hard.

Would, that people left the young and the developing players alone.
Rose-coloured glasses re O'Brien, I would never have picked him, either. He's just never had the intangibles for mine. Dow, on the other hand, was 50/50. Regarding Schache, I'm so glad we took Weitering then waited on McKay; that was the most level headed piece of recruiting I can remember.
 

Arr0w

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Love to hear it - there's something special about a bit of loyalty.
The vanilla comment was never a knock on him, more that he was good at everything but without 1 standout trait or significant x-factor, this remains the case but I for one am certainly not complaining.
All things going to plan Walsh, will be our next skipper.
Liked for explanation of vanilla
 

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Gethelred

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Rose-coloured glasses re O'Brien, I would never have picked him, either. He's just never had the intangibles for mine. Dow, on the other hand, was 50/50. Regarding Schache, I'm so glad we took Weitering then waited on McKay; that was the most level headed piece of recruiting I can remember.
I just love it so much when people refer to others as having 'rose coloured glasses'; I'm biased, am I? You're not, towards your own opinion? Here's an idea: if you cannot argue someone is wrong, don't position your disagreement as correct, hmm?

Eh, SOS has a knack for picking KPP talent.
 

Gethelred

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Sticking up for someone doesn’t suggest toughness, quite the opposite these days as nothing will ever happen and the game is too quick to carry on with that rubbish. Toughness is putting your head over the ball, running all day to get to the right spots and delivering when it matters. LOB hasn’t shown many of those traits.
I think you're showing a bit of a selective memory, personally. LOB has had his issues here, but he's certainly improved significantly when it comes to putting his head over the ball.

And I reiterate: he is not Patrick Cripps, Lachie Neale or Dion Prestia. He is a winger, and is more reliant on delivery than any of the other midfield positions, but while he's been at Carlton the deepest our stoppage setup has run has been a direct hitout to advantage while Ed tags. He has needed to get his own ball whilst learning how to do it at AFL level, and was very small in his first few years. He's not small now, and he's getting there slowly.

We'll see.
 

BigBreakfast

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I think you're showing a bit of a selective memory, personally. LOB has had his issues here, but he's certainly improved significantly when it comes to putting his head over the ball.

And I reiterate: he is not Patrick Cripps, Lachie Neale or Dion Prestia. He is a winger, and is more reliant on delivery than any of the other midfield positions, but while he's been at Carlton the deepest our stoppage setup has run has been a direct hitout to advantage while Ed tags. He has needed to get his own ball whilst learning how to do it at AFL level, and was very small in his first few years.
No selective memory at all. I don’t recall instances when he has provided consistent outside run and hurt opposition. He has seen Newnes and Walsh succeed on the outside last year, now Cottrell has gone past him. He is either too small to impact or unable to provide the run and carry he is vaunted as possessing on a consistent basis.
 

Gethelred

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No selective memory at all. I don’t recall instances when he has provided consistent outside run and hurt opposition. He has seen Newnes and Walsh succeed on the outside last year, now Cottrell has gone past him. He is either too small to impact or unable to provide the run and carry he is vaunted as possessing on a consistent basis.
I'm a fan of Newnes and Cottrell, but to say that Cottrell has gone past him is jumping the gun. Cottrell's deficiencies are more around what he does with ball in hand; it doesn't show up if he doesn't kick the ball, especially under pressure. And there's precious few players in the comp that would get a berth in our midfield ahead of Walsh.

Picking up Newnes was a good choice, one I liked at the time, and he's been better than servicable. What it did was it meant that if LOB needs development, we have time to provide it unless a better option for the position/list spot becomes available. I am fully aware that he might be on the end of delisting at some point, but I do not think he's shown what he can do fully at AFL level yet.

And do me a solid, and define what you mean by consistent, because he's played a single game in the ones in two seasons.
 

BigBreakfast

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I'm a fan of Newnes and Cottrell, but to say that Cottrell has gone past him is jumping the gun. Cottrell's deficiencies are more around what he does with ball in hand; it doesn't show up if he doesn't kick the ball, especially under pressure. And there's precious few players in the comp that would get a berth in our midfield ahead of Walsh.

Picking up Newnes was a good choice, one I liked at the time, and he's been better than servicable. What it did was it meant that if LOB needs development, we have time to provide it unless a better option for the position/list spot becomes available. I am fully aware that he might be on the end of delisting at some point, but I do not think he's shown what he can do fully at AFL level yet.

And do me a solid, and define what you mean by consistent, because he's played a single game in the ones in two seasons.
Consistent in the fact that he hasn’t been able to force his inclusion in the side, nor has he excelled in reserves reports as demanding selection.

Cottrell offers size, commitment and fervour that LOB just hasn’t displayed, evidenced again on the weekend. No doubt he hadn’t displayed his capacity yet and I hope he does because Carlton will be better for it. He, like any youngster, probably deserves more than one off hits. Demonstrates that Teague doesn’t have faith in an extrapolated inclusion.

I only referred to Walsh because he played outside in a wing role last year and demonstrated to LOB and others what is required to succeed in these roles, run and hunt possessions, support defensively and hurt by foot.

He did get an game at the end of last year took just one off though, hardly fair to the lad.
 

Gethelred

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Consistent in the fact that he hasn’t been able to force his inclusion in the side, nor has he excelled in reserves reports as demanding selection.

Cottrell offers size, commitment and fervour that LOB just hasn’t displayed, evidenced again on the weekend. No doubt he hadn’t displayed his capacity yet and I hope he does because Carlton will be better for it. He, like any youngster, probably deserves more than one off hits. Demonstrates that Teague doesn’t have faith in an extrapolated inclusion.

I only referred to Walsh because he played outside in a wing role last year and demonstrated to LOB and others what is required to succeed in these roles, run and hunt possessions, support defensively and hurt by foot.

He did get an game at the end of last year took just one off though, hardly fair to the lad.
I think we will start to see more of LOB - provided someone like Caroll or Philp doesn't shoot past him - once Murphy retires. Each of the three of them bring something a little different to the table.

It truly depends on what Teague sees as something he's unwilling to compromise on.
 

BigBreakfast

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I think we will start to see more of LOB - provided someone like Caroll or Philp doesn't shoot past him - once Murphy retires. Each of the three of them bring something a little different to the table.

It truly depends on what Teague sees as something he's unwilling to compromise on.
Absolutely. Carroll is intriguing and Philp did ok in his limited opportunities. Different role but Kemp will fly past him. I just see too many offering more than LOB; again, happy to be proven wrong.
 

SkyhorseTamer

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I'm a fan of Newnes and Cottrell, but to say that Cottrell has gone past him is jumping the gun. Cottrell's deficiencies are more around what he does with ball in hand; it doesn't show up if he doesn't kick the ball, especially under pressure. And there's precious few players in the comp that would get a berth in our midfield ahead of Walsh.

Picking up Newnes was a good choice, one I liked at the time, and he's been better than servicable. What it did was it meant that if LOB needs development, we have time to provide it unless a better option for the position/list spot becomes available. I am fully aware that he might be on the end of delisting at some point, but I do not think he's shown what he can do fully at AFL level yet.

And do me a solid, and define what you mean by consistent, because he's played a single game in the ones in two seasons.
Cotters is miles in front of lob. Mayhave a much lower ceiling than lob, but for now he's well in front.
 

Gethelred

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Cotters is miles in front of lob. Mayhave a much lower ceiling than lob, but for now he's well in front.
I'm sure you can remember his goal to win the game from last year? Except, earlier in the game he essentially gifted them two goals earlier, due to an inability to find a target out of back fifty.

He's played 14 games. It's not anything resembling a decent sample size to put him above or below LOB in the pecking order. What he is and how he seems is promising, in the way that fans like.

As I said, we'll see.
 

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