Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

[JustaBattler]

You cant criticise SPS for short kicks if he hasn't got better options further afield. Better teams also kick to space forward if there isnt a decent option - and make it a leg race - I dont see Carlton doing this much - but why would you - when Teague puts slow palyers on the wings or has them playing behind the ball most of the time anyway.

Funny thing is - TEague plays bloke sliek Setterfield and Kennedy on one wing in order to provide defensive cover (presumably) but exposes us defensively - because they dont have the leg speed or endurance to run teh meters required of good wingmen. if they run ahead of teh ball and someone turns it over- they get cut to pieces on teh rebound because oof lack of leg speed

Compare how our HBFers are used V Port for example- ours pretty much stay back - rarely are they seen as attaking options on the recieve - it is almost like there is an invisible wall in front of them behind teh center square which says though shalt not pass- Saad cventured forth in hsi fiurst two games - but hasn't been sighted since. Newman has kciked goals from HBF - I cant remeber anyone else doing it or even having a shot - except for Saad once or twice in teh first two games.

 

[sosos]

They're nursing him to 300 - rightly so - but he's certainly not having anywhere near the impact you seemed to be suggesting.

Why is it rightly so? He's had a good career, shown great loyalty through some tough times. And I'd understand if he was really, really close to the milestone, and had been performing to a decent standard, but his form was starting to drop off.

But no-one should be owed games. If he's the best option, sure, pick him every day of the week. But sorry, I just don't see that he is right now.

 

[windows1]

you can't coach focused aggression, you can't coach love for the jumper, you can't coach win at all costs mentality, you can't coach never give up ruthlessness, all these things must be internally motivated and if they require continual external stimulation then I'm afraid the group we have is the wrong group

POTY

You’re talking about:
SOS, Parks, Cottrell, Walsh, Philp.

Vs

Well, most of the others I am afraid. ‘Genetic’ vs ‘manufactured’ intensity.

 

[Jeremias]

Why is it rightly so? He's had a good career, shown great loyalty through some tough times. And I'd understand if he was really, really close to the milestone, and had been performing to a decent standard, but his form was starting to drop off.

He's now one game off it. How much closer do you want him to be?

But no-one should be owed games. If he's the best option, sure, pick him every day of the week. But sorry, I just don't see that he is right now.

Nobody is owed games but what's the harm in getting him there?

I'd argue not getting him there when he's this close would do more harm than getting him there.

 

[Jimmyonesix]

Has anyone else watched the Purefooty segment from David King and Daniel Hoyne?
Pretty interesting stuff from 20 mins onwards about us, and how things are not as bad as they seem. Will try to paraphrase the main points:
Essentially, the expected result based on an average footy game based on shots taken is that we should have won by 8 points.
We had 27 forward-half intercepts. Port had 21. The return from those for us was 1 goal 7 behinds. Port's was 4 goals 1 behind.
D50 to F50 transition - coast to coast. Port had 3 scores - 3 goals. We had 3 scores from our chains - for 1 goal.
Kicking efficiency in forward half of the ground. Port 63%. Us 47%.
Our system generated very similar numbers to Port. Difference is Port took their chances, and we didn't (in terms of scoring goals).

He also said put SPS in a position that his kicks are dangerous as he is one of the few players who kick above AFL average in the side

 

[Jimmyonesix]

Petrevski-Seton is elusive: he can duck in and out of trouble through the midfield and keep making the play. His first game for WA at the championships was solid, but his second – against Vic Metro at Simonds Stadium – was excellent in a polished performance that highlighted his ability to take the game forward. He isn't a player to look sideways when in possession – he likes to get it going goal-bound as soon as possible.
The 18-year-old is unselfish and brings others into games with his sharp foot skills and quick mind, and he averaged 24 disposals in 12 games at colts level. His form towards the end of the season was best, and he captained Claremont's under-18 side to its premiership win, highlighting an improved leadership presence from him.
The indigenous prospect has played mostly as a midfielder this year and that's where he does his best work, although he is capable closer to goal and was one of the NAB AFL Academy's best players against Werribee's VFL side earlier this year. His tackling is also elite: he sticks his tackles and enjoys bringing a player down.

Well we sure developed that out of him

 

[sosos]

He's now one game off it. How much closer do you want him to be?



Nobody is owed games but what's the harm in getting him there?

I'd argue not getting him there when he's this close would do more harm than getting him there.

He's 10 away.

 

[Jeremias]

He's 10 away.

I'm talking about Nathan Jones, not Murphy

 

[Stamos]

Just wondering how the Marc Murphy 300 games will be broached in the media vs that of Nathan Jones this week.

MM not in any form worth writing about & hardly impacting in games in an inconsistent team.

Nath Jones having a run in a top 2 team & still having an input on-field.

A Melbourne supporter started a thread on the main board earlier this week asking if people thought he should get dropped because it's such a big match for them due to his form, rather than playing his 300th on Anzac Eve.

 

[Brackets]

I didn’t wanna copy the entire article onto this forum for obvious reasons, so here’s a pastebin link to all the text.

It’s ran through a link shortener so it doesn’t preview the entire article in the comment.

Vets v Kids: Inside Blues’ warped selection policy. - Pastebin.com

Pastebin.com is the number one paste tool since 2002. Pastebin is a website where you can store text online for a set period of time.

bit.ly

It was interesting until I read the best examples they could provide from the 17 other clubs were:

Daniel Rioli - same draft as Kennedy and Cuningham

Stephen Coniglio - dropped for 1 game..

Jason Johannisen - hasn't been dropped...

Jared Polec - rebuilding club

Mason Cox - righto, may as well include Moore

Mitch Wallis, Nathan Broad - luxury of being on top without a depleted list

Then has a bob each way to contradict themselves and say we shouldn't be playing SPS. What will be the rhetoric should we drop him for Newman in a few weeks.

More of the same, just a cheap shot while we're down.

 

[Malifice]

you can't coach focused aggression, you can't coach love for the jumper, you can't coach win at all costs mentality, you can't coach never give up ruthlessness

As an Ex Soldier, I assure you that focused aggression, love for the uniform, win at all costs and ruthlessness can indeed be taught and instilled in young men.

While I always prefer the carrot to the stick, sometimes you've gotta drive some tough love into blokes. Our standards are too low, players are not playing for each other, are not prepared to go when it's their time to go, and are not going in hard enough, or sacrificing their own game to make others around them better.

I'm hoping for manic pressure this weekend. I don't want to see a single opposition player with time and space to spot up a teammate. I want to see rushed kicks from the oppo due to intense pressure we bring resulting in turnovers and less than optimal decisions being made in haste. If we can get that kind of pressure game going, it then needs to be sustained.

 

[forever blue 1]

As an Ex Soldier, I assure you that focused aggression, love for the uniform, win at all costs and ruthlessness can indeed be taught and instilled in young men.

While I always prefer the carrot to the stick, sometimes you've gotta drive some tough love into blokes. Our standards are too low, players are not playing for each other, are not prepared to go when it's their time to go, and are not going in hard enough, or sacrificing their own game to make others around them better.

I'm hoping for manic pressure this weekend. I don't want to see a single opposition player with time and space to spot up a teammate. I want to see rushed kicks from the oppo due to intense pressure we bring resulting in turnovers and less than optimal decisions being made in haste. If we can get that kind of pressure game going, it then needs to be sustained.

I actually don’t think the team is fit enough to do that, although I had my hopes high pre season, like
We’re fitter than ever, the previous year
We’re fitter than ever!
So when they were drafted maybe they were obese teens who watched tv all day

 

[Pentatonic Flat Fifth]

For those who are constantly praising Sammo as some sort of clean player with excellent kicking - he is not. People clearly gained a first impression from his break out game and have never revisited that assessment. I think he could be sorted out if he plays a natural game taking players on in the thick of it - he moves really well and gets through high congestion traffic great while keeping his feet and arms free. He is playing profoundly restricted and looks clearly to be under instruction and its killing him.

SPS regularly stuffs his kicks up - almost as much, if not more than Liam Jones

19

Liam Jones

Age

34

Ht

199cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.4

2star

K

6.5

3star

HB

2.9

3star

M

4.3

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

134.5

2star

D

7.6

2star

K

6.1

3star

HB

1.4

1star

M

4.1

4star

T

1.4

2star

MG

116.3

2star

D

9.4

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

2.0

2star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.2

4star

- its an absolute furphy that he is a good kick.


I hold my breath when he has the ball, who will it go to ? I have watched SPS kick from the back corner of the square 10 meters to a player on the wing and kick it straight over their head. I watched him kick it directly to an opposition player, directly in front of goal - not like Jones kick which was mistaken identity - but purely because he fluffed it like the kick on the wing.

SPS has a reputation for "good kicking" because 90% of the time he kicks it less than 20 meters. I have never in all my football years seen a player who so regularly kicks so short.

As far as being clean he is great with the ball in hand - however the number of times I have seen him run over the ball head down for it to bounce out to opposition is beyond ridiculous. I think its a carry over from his junior years which has never been coached out of him - he over runs and fumbles the ball consistently. Once he actually has it - he is brilliant in traffic.

He should be playing right in the thick of it - its his absolutely best spot and no idea why he was taken out of there - my view is it was a lack of tank. Meters gained over the years seems to confirm this. Does not want to run.

 

[Pentatonic Flat Fifth]

As an Ex Soldier, I assure you that focused aggression, love for the uniform, win at all costs and ruthlessness can indeed be taught and instilled in young men.

While I always prefer the carrot to the stick, sometimes you've gotta drive some tough love into blokes. Our standards are too low, players are not playing for each other, are not prepared to go when it's their time to go, and are not going in hard enough, or sacrificing their own game to make others around them better.

I'm hoping for manic pressure this weekend. I don't want to see a single opposition player with time and space to spot up a teammate. I want to see rushed kicks from the oppo due to intense pressure we bring resulting in turnovers and less than optimal decisions being made in haste. If we can get that kind of pressure game going, it then needs to be sustained.

Nick Stevens and a few others would beg to differ. (Boekhorst, Russel, plenty more) That said - 100% agree with what you say. Always the odd self absorbed characters though.

 

[sosos]

I'm talking about Nathan Jones, not Murphy

Sincere apologies.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

To counter this though, we gifted early games to the likes of Dow and LOB which hasn't proven to be successful, and we haven't dropped SPS which many are now critical of with suggestions it's impacted his desire.

Conversely we held back McKay to improve deficiencies, playing just 15 games in his first 3 years, and he came out in his 4th season to have his best year.

We sent Weitering back to dominate after he stalled, and he hasn't missed a beat since.

Silvagni was made to work for it, and he's gone from fringe to likely a mainstay.

We sent Cottrell back when his form wasn't great, irrespective of a match winning goal, and he has come out this year improved.

Point being, the above players were made to earn it at some point amidst concerns, and they're now the younger players we have more confidence in.

Stocker now comes in after a 38 possession game, Cuningham possibly after an 11 tackle game. Philp, Ramsay, Owies etc. are being made to earn it, like some of the aforementioned players.

We've lamented our lack of development but perhaps we're finally seeing a proper system in action. If Stocker dominates for the rest of the year, I'm sure we'll see criticism for not playing him sooner, but this may just be the difference between his future to that of Dow.

This is why I don’t agree with people saying Teague won’t make tough calls at selection.

 

[forever blue 1]

This is why I don’t agree with people saying Teague won’t make tough calls at selection.

Surely a tough call equates to Murphy, sps, betts, rock the boat?

 

[myblueroan]

Entirely agree. You have it or you don’t.

I suppose the question is are we onboarding an entire cohort of players without these qualities or have we anesthetized this out of the playing group?

Great question.
My idea is we get the entire BF blues community into PP and we interview every player. Sort the wheat from the chaff.
Should work well.
I'll clean up both wheat and chaff for yas after.

What?

 

[myblueroan]

he's playing better than murphy but basically, so am I.............

If it's true, they can shove nursing Murph to 300 up their jumpers. If he truly loves the club he'll be ruthless about his own performances.

 

[forever blue 1]

If it's true, they can shove nursing Murph to 300 up their jumpers. If he truly loves the club he'll be ruthless about his own performances.

So I think Murphy is on 290, so that’s only 10 rounds to go. That’s ok.

 

[Stamos]

To counter this though, we gifted early games to the likes of Dow and LOB which hasn't proven to be successful, and we haven't dropped SPS which many are now critical of with suggestions it's impacted his desire.

Conversely we held back McKay to improve deficiencies, playing just 15 games in his first 3 years, and he came out in his 4th season to have his best year.

We sent Weitering back to dominate after he stalled, and he hasn't missed a beat since.

Silvagni was made to work for it, and he's gone from fringe to likely a mainstay.

We sent Cottrell back when his form wasn't great, irrespective of a match winning goal, and he has come out this year improved.

Point being, the above players were made to earn it at some point amidst concerns, and they're now the younger players we have more confidence in.

Stocker now comes in after a 38 possession game, Cuningham possibly after an 11 tackle game. Philp, Ramsay, Owies etc. are being made to earn it, like some of the aforementioned players.

We've lamented our lack of development but perhaps we're finally seeing a proper system in action. If Stocker dominates for the rest of the year, I'm sure we'll see criticism for not playing him sooner, but this may just be the difference between his future to that of Dow.

The point of the article is that we haven’t dropped/made to earn any of the underperforming senior players, not that the kids have had it too easy

 

[myblueroan]

 

[Earls Smother]

you can't coach focused aggression, you can't coach love for the jumper, you can't coach win at all costs mentality, you can't coach never give up ruthlessness, all these things must be internally motivated and if they require continual external stimulation then I'm afraid the group we have is the wrong group

POTY

You’re talking about:
SOS, Parks, Cottrell, Walsh, Philp.

Vs

Well, most of the others I am afraid. ‘Genetic’ vs ‘manufactured’ intensity.

Yes, I'm afraid Thy's post goes a long way to explaining why our rebuild is a slow burn, rather than potentially being more advanced.

On the scale of Walsh at the top end, down to "insert several players' names" at the other, we have an imbalance that needs to be corrected.

Parks stands out already as being at the Walsh end of the scale. Andy McKay was similiar when he started. In particular, our 2016 and 2017 picks (including Setters being traded in) are basically just nice guys, who appear to lack the drive to be the best they can be as quickly as possible.

We miss Kreuzer (uninjured) and Simmo from this perspective. Simmo could have gone on another year ahead of 2 others for this very reason. The 2 captains have it, but one is playing sore and the other is making too many costly errors.

Ironically Sos's son has "it" - but did he draft too many that don't and probably never will?

 

[Stamos]

This is why I don’t agree with people saying Teague won’t make tough calls at selection.

A tough call would have been dropping Murphy, or Betts last year when he was stinking it up, or a clearly unfit McGovern. Making kids earn their spot, or dropping them after 1 game does not count as a ‘tough call’.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

A tough call would have been dropping Murphy, or Betts last year when he was stinking it up, or a clearly unfit McGovern. Making kids earn their spot, or dropping them after 1 game does not count as a ‘tough call’.

It is imo because I’d say you are in the majority in saying that and he is giving himself zero excuses for losses. It’s about developing the kids now and gifting games and continuing to play kids when they are poor hasn’t worked. Also gifting games to kids who are liabilities stuffs the development of the better kids who are actually earning a game to play.