Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

[Arr0w]

Good on you Mark.
You are spot on and if anyone disagrees by the width of a hair they know nothing about the Carlton FC or AFL Football.
I'm sick to death of everyone making excuses while other clubs seem to be able to pass us by and make us look like amateurs on so many levels.

Who has push by us??

If you are referring to the Swans, Crows and Dockers, look a little deeper

Dockers have beaten no one of note

Crows play a nice brand of footy, great win against the Cats, but who after that

Swans, another that have changed their style, great wins against Tigers and Lions but their other results are difficult to judge, let's give that some time too

 

[skadoosh]

Trying to take a step back, I think the level at which we've played hasn't gone down hill from Round 1 vs the Tigers to our game against Port. We're still seeing the same big issues, whether it was during our win over Freo & GC or our losses against the Tigers, Magpies and now Port. Of course there are small changes week to week, but overall the only main variable has been the strength (or weakness) of our opposition. I don't see any improvement in our gameplan, however, nothing has gotten worse, it's only the quality of the opposition and especially the way in which Port showed us up so easily when they wanted to with clean skills.

 

[Stamos]

Trying to take a step back, I think the level at which we've played hasn't gone down hill from Round 1 vs the Tigers to our game against Port. We're still seeing the same big issues, whether it was during our win over Freo & GC or our losses against the Tigers, Magpies and now Port. Of course there are small changes week to week, but overall the only main variable has been the strength (or weakness) of our opposition. I don't see any improvement in our gameplan, however, nothing has gotten worse, it's only the quality of the opposition and especially the way in which Port showed us up so easily when they wanted to with clean skills.

Reckon we were a fair bit better against the Tiges than we were against Collingwood and Port

 

[Ald Gardiner]

Pretty much reiterating what many here are saying. Glad it's going public. We basically needed the moment to come where the coaches are forced to acknowledge that we are not playing a team with an eye to a premiership - and it's been the case from Rd1. At least with it in the media, it removes the shackles in a sense - frees up Teague to change tack. In fact, almost applies pressure to change tack. I'm almost certain we will see both Stocker and Cuningham in the 22 this week.

It needs to go public, we’ve had a gutful of the culture of this club, it means more to play “bobble head” Eddie and no pressure Murph than playing kids with equivalent output that might actually give us hope into the future.

 

[Ald Gardiner]

which Clubs that finished below Carlton last year have we lost against - please remind me again?

JAB fair enough but we are also being beaten by more, and in easier fashion, than clubs we pushed hard last year, in Port and Pies games we were way better last year. How do we explain that?

 

[jj1978]

which Clubs that finished below Carlton last year have we lost against - please remind me again?

So treading water, status quo is acceptable. Our kids are no longer kids.... the ones we have given excuses for 3-4 years ago have now had 3-4 pre-seasons, maturity with age, development with maturity with AFL mental application, they've been in the system. Either our club is failing to develop players to be the best they can be, or they're not connecting/motivating these players properly (game plan, selection, personalities). How do we flick this switch?

Beveridge won a premiership, Dogs dipped a bit for a year or two after, the list I suspect got big heads and Beveridge was not afraid to make big calls to reel in attitudes. Johansen would never have been dropped at Carlton, Libba's behaviours would not be rectified, we'd still have reports of him taking a leak outside a restaurant/bar at 4am the night before a game, etc.

When is the 'it's all good' look and feel from laid back characters like Teague, Barker, going to change to let them all know it's not all good? From rumours, it seems a lot of our list can't handle the cold hard truth that their application of 18/22 that roll out each game is not up to the required standard and the standard they're capable of.

They have 22-26 x 2 hours a year to give it their all mentally/physically.

 

[Stamos]

What sort of comments did he make?

About tweaking the gameplan to suit your players, and the need to play players in their right position. He seems very switched on.

 

[MissBlueBagger93]

Good on you Mark.
You are spot on and if anyone disagrees by the width of a hair they know nothing about the Carlton FC or AFL Football.
I'm sick to death of everyone making excuses while other clubs seem to be able to pass us by and make us look like amateurs on so many levels.

And I’m sick to death of supporters labelling others as knowing nothing about Carlton FC or footy if they don’t adhere word by word to a newspaper article..

 

[RPCB]

About tweaking the gameplan to suit your players, and the need to play players in their right position. He seems very switched on.

He sounds like a person who posts on Carlton’s BigFooty board.

 

[LanceRomance]

Need these guys, especially the dude on our left.

 

[Arr0w]

About tweaking the gameplan to suit your players, and the need to play players in their right position. He seems very switched on.

Not exactly earth shattering analysis

 

[Stamos]

Not exactly earth shattering analysis

And yet it seems to be lacking from our coaches' box

 

[Arr0w]

And yet it seems to be lacking from our coaches' box

Which most of us have indicated

Get the right people in the right roles

Tweak an unattainable gameplan that suits your strengths

 

[Blue Pulse]

You are missing the point. The criticism of Carlton, which is all over the media, is the WAY that Carlton played. Despite its many opportunities the team consistently lacked focus, confidence, skill and effectiveness. There is real cause for concern.

Totally agree, Dow, LOB, SPS, Stocker, Cuningham and whoever else's name you want to throw into the ring would not matter one iota if our style of play reflected the effort these guys are trying to put in. The game style does not play to our strengths and hide our weaknesses, it actually shows team how to harness our weakness and quell our strengths. We've got to go back to basics and play football, get reward for effort, which is not happening. Poor goal kicking is demoralising. Some players need a good kick up the bum, good form needs to be rewarded, poor form needs to be relegated to find form, "no matter who you are"

At the moment we are lost, almost back to the Malthouse days, where we didn't want to take on the game in case we made a mistake. Just play the GAME how it is meant to be played.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Says more about development than recruiting. Remember Rance’s comments about Lynch and the bizarre things he would find he was doing ?

Never saw these comments, care to elaborate or provide a link. Fairly curious

 

[CarltonBlooz]

Need these guys, especially the dude on our left. View attachment 1107058

Looks straight out of a one hit wonder band from the 70's.

 

[Percy2257]

You aren't going to get anything near what they were drafted on, all of them would be late second+ at best and if we did what would be the point? Useless draft picks that might be good in 3-4+ years at the bare minimum.

Expect LOB to get 1-2 year deal, Dow the same, SPS the same.

Would be a colossal blunder if those 3 never came good and got traded, would be Collingwood list management 2.0

Dow - Pick 3
SPS - Pick 6
LOB - Pick 10

You just know we'd see those 3 tearing it up at a different club, would be classic Carlton.

0 point in getting rid of those 3 at this time, in a few years if still no good yes, 23-25, 100 games.

It all comes back to development, which we have been extremely poor at.

Dow and LOB both barely played and SPS is being played out of position, Dow + LOB very poor atm, but HOPEFULLY some VFL time etc can help, we'll see.

They may well tear it up at another club. If that happened it would be because they are more suited to their new team. It doesn’t make any sense to keep them at Carlton because (a) of their high draft number, and (b) a concern that they may play better at another club.
If they are consistently underperforming at Carlton then no useful purpose is served by keeping them here.
As for the Club getting a poor return from a trade why, for example, couldn’t Dow and Cerra be swapped in a deal btw Freo and Carlton?

 

[JustaBattler]

JAB fair enough but we are also being beaten by more, and in easier fashion, than clubs we pushed hard last year, in Port and Pies games we were way better last year. How do we explain that?

I'm still getting over the Collingwood game mate - that was a bad signal for me. However my comments regarding the Port game - I stand by. We were in the game despite all the 'stuff' people are pointing fingers at. I never thought we were more than an outside chance of winning it tbh - and said so before the game. Just like I think we are only an outside chance of beating Brisbane- too many outs for us to be 50/50 in a whole bunch of games till the bye really. We lacked forward pressure - which is what the game plan is about- and we missed too many easy shots.

So treading water, status quo is acceptable. Our kids are no longer kids.... the ones we have given excuses for 3-4 years ago have now had 3-4 pre-seasons, maturity with age, development with maturity with AFL mental application, they've been in the system. Either our club is failing to develop players to be the best they can be, or they're not connecting/motivating these players properly (game plan, selection, personalities). How do we flick this switch?

Beveridge won a premiership, Dogs dipped a bit for a year or two after, the list I suspect got big heads and Beveridge was not afraid to make big calls to reel in attitudes. Johansen would never have been dropped at Carlton, Libba's behaviours would not be rectified, we'd still have reports of him taking a leak outside a restaurant/bar at 4am the night before a game, etc.

When is the 'it's all good' look and feel from laid back characters like Teague, Barker, going to change to let them all know it's not all good? From rumours, it seems a lot of our list can't handle the cold hard truth that their application of 18/22 that roll out each game is not up to the required standard and the standard they're capable of.

They have 22-26 x 2 hours a year to give it their all mentally/physically.

No doubt the pressure is on Teague and co - bt using the Port game as the trigger to fire any bullets is a bit silly in my books.

There are concerns regarding the team mainly injury clouds the issues - but we have been exposed for lack of depth in KPP. This affects different games in different ways. Against Port Jones allowed Georgiades to get off the hook - cost the game.

It is all about expectations - I think mine were lower than most posting on here.

In particular - I think Teague plays favourites and contorts team selection around playing his favourites - which means a few players are always not able to play to their strengths. However in Teague's defense- he lacks a fair bit of choice in team selection due to key injuries to players. If we cant recognise the cumulative effect of starting players out like: TDK|SOJ|Martin|Fisher - then we are kidding ourselves. Parks would have been very handy against Port - where we played a tall defender down against a team stacked with them.

It is a tough run to start even if we didnt have all the outs : Richmond/Collingwood in first two rounds whee they are fresh and full strength and we arent - then Port followed by Brisbane - that is 3 genuine contenders - right there - the only 50/50 game we have lost is Collingwood - that was a coaching loss in my books - it happens.

 

[Stamos]

I'm still getting over the Collingwood game mate - that was a bad signal for me. However my comments regarding the Port game - I stand by. We were in the game despite all the 'stuff' people are pointing fingers at.

I doubt any supporter who was at the G thought we were in the game.
Might have come across differently on TV, but I think there's a fairly consistent reaction from those of us who were there.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

What happened 20 years, or even 10 years ago is irrelevant to this group, we are at the start of the 6th year of the only rebuild we have ever undertaken. We have been improving each year from the start of the rebuild, apart from 2018 when our list was the youngest/most inexperienced while having massive injuries

We are 5 games into the season, lost games to 3 sides that played finals last year, 2 of which will probably end up being top 4. All this, with probably the worst injuries to best 22 in the competition

While I have highlighted my concerns, consistently for over 12 months, most of melts paint a picture like we are a wooden spoon, bottom 4 side, which we aren't

From sacking coaches, to board members and trading of players, it's over the top, but that's what this place is like when short term results don't mirror the unrealistic expectations of the masses

We were never considered a top 4 side this year, we are competing in a pool of 5-6 sides for the last 2 spots in the 8

I don't think anyone is painting the picture that we're a wooden spoon side.

The frustration is due to the fact that the rebuild has started 5 years ago, we are into the 6th and we still have the same glaring issues as we did a couple of years ago.

The biggest problem is we've lost 3 games to finals sides from last year. The club has built this season up, we've acquired highly rated players in Saad and Williams and finals this year was the expectation. We can't make the finals if we keep losing to finals teams from last year. And it's the way we're losing, we were nowhere near it against Port and Collingwood. The scoreboard flattered us in both games.

Are we only allowed to be concerned if we lose to teams that weren't in the finals last year? Then what happens if we lose to Sydney and/or Melbourne? they weren't finals teams last year - the excuse will change to they're finals teams this year...

Every team has significant injuries, you just feel the pain more for us because you support Carlton. If you were a supporter of another mob, you'd feel their pain more with their injuries. Charlie is obviously a big out - but he's been out for nearly 2 years now... TDK he's only in his 4th season, Marchbank has been out for the better part of 3 years (including this one), Martin and Fisher were both in the side against Collingwood and made no difference to the overall performance anyway.

People are tired of the excuses.

There's no excuse guys like Murphy, Betts, Casboult and Ed Curnow should be gifted games.
There's no excuse the captain should be trying to make miracles happen and take everyone on or bomb the ball forward when he should be giving it off to the better users of the football other than ONE - he's trying to impress... wonder why ...
There's no excuse our other captain should be kicking OOF or dropping chest marks in the back line when under pressure, it's his role to lead and you can't do that if you're not composed under pressure...
There's no excuse that a guy on about 800k who demanded to play as a mid turns up unfit and doesn't impress in any game so far
There's no excuse that another guy on a huge contract has to be moved out of his primary position up forward and replaced with Williamson because he can't impact a game.

The old brigade turn up and try but they are not up to it against the tougher teams in particular. In other words, we are not beating any quality opposition with them in the side and if we do, it'll be an anomaly.
One captain is being selfish and the other is lacking confidence.
Two prized recruits haven't given their all to be ready to warrant their contract demands.

Then there's the coaching issues which I've outlined in the coaching threads...

It doesn't mean we're a bottom 4 side - what it does mean is that there are very worrying signs relating to the success of this rebuild and they are all justified.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Drafting isn't easy

Ben Ainsworth (Pick 4, 2016), Jack Scrimshaw (Pick 7, 2016), Peter Wright (Pick 8, 2014), Callum Ah Chee (Pick 8, 2015), Will Brodie (Pick 9, 2016), Jarrod Garlett (Pick 15, 2014), Brayden Fiorini (Pick 20, 2015)

I know it isn't easy, that's the point I was trying to make. Even if you re-did those selections, who are you going to take anyway? Those 2 drafts imo were not very impressive at all.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

If we're going full hindsight, I'm trading out of 2016 and 2017 as much as I'm able to try and get 4-5 first round picks in 2018, get Walsh, Smith, Butters and one of the Kings.

But then, that's with the benefit of hindsight.

Yeah full hindsight you'd do that. But if the point is we drafted the wrong players in those particular drafts, who were the right ones? The players available to us in both 2016 and 2017 drafts is a bit meh if you ask me. There's a few good ones but most clubs missed out on them, not just us.

 

[JustaBattler]

I doubt any supporter who was at the G thought we were in the game.
Might have come across differently on TV, but I think there's a fairly consistent reaction from those of us who were there.

There was a bad period towards end of Q2 where they got two goals and half the 3rd where we got some bad umpire calls ( Cripps/Levi and Murphy calls were all pathetic) also against the run of play and they got 2-3 fluky goals - I can understand that it would have been a bad look at the ground. However on TV in the second look and more forensic looks - it boiled down to Georgiades and Gray. They were kicking them from everywhere and we were kicking nothing.

Anyway, I guess I am coming across like an apologist for Teague - which trust me I am not.

I just see things differently and in determining what really went wrong - we are hopeless in front of goals and can't afford to be - and we didn't have the defensive personnel able to handle their talls and Gray. That is what the Port loss boiled down to. Not an unexpected outcome either.

Teague and co have developed a game plan around fast ball movement to forward half and defensive pressure from there.

I judge Teague from the perspective of who he plays in order to make that game plan work and where does he play them.

Right now we have low forward 50 pressure and our ball movement from kick-ins was a joke.

We've lost the speed on display in the first two games and replaced it with a slower version of a predictable game. How much of this is available players and how much is the wrong players playing in wrong positions - I dont know.

 

[jj1978]

Sad that it generally takes a week of media beat up to get 80% of the list to pull their finger out. Expect us to put up a really good showing this week, media silence and we'll be flat the following week and dish up the same same.

I've mentioned earlier, win/lose/draw I just want to see a 6 week block where for 6 straight games we apply the kind of pressure/attitude we saw for about 3 quarters against Freo. 1 acceptable committed application every 4 games is not enough, and would much rather Teague stop pandering to them and see 50% of them ask for trade or be dropped if they can't handle the reality of what is required in their chosen profession.

 

[The Return of the Paf]

Sad that it generally takes a week of media beat up to get 80% of the list to pull their finger out. Expect us to put up a really good showing this week, media silence and we'll be flat the following week and dish up the same same.

I've mentioned earlier, win/lose/draw I just want to see a 6 week block where for 6 straight games we apply the kind of pressure/attitude we saw for about 3 quarters against Freo. 1 acceptable committed application every 4 games is not enough, and would much rather Teague stop pandering to them and see 50% of them ask for trade or be dropped if they can't handle the reality of what is required in their chosen profession.

That kind of proves their point, then, hardly a beat up.