Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

[skadoosh]

Yeah, you need to. Things that are obvious to you might not be to someone else.

Your stats kind of back it up and we can move forward all lovey dovey with each other.

To add to this. The Purefooty video I mentioned above also talked about expected kicking efficiency.
Paraphrasing King (after typing it up, it became a word for word): SPS is going for kicks anyone can hit. 71% expected hit rate - he is hitting 79%. = +8%. So +8% looks good, but he's hitting easy options. He's not taking risks. If you're going to play SPS at half-back, he has to be biting off corridor kicks, be like Jack Lukosius, Caleb Daniel, otherwise you're not maximising that player. To have a good kick hitting basic, easy targets serves no purpose and becomes a waste of talent. So either put him in the midfield or allow him to play forward and still try and execute those skills, because to me, right now, they're not maximising that guy.

The Bulldogs have 7 players in the midfield and half back positions who rate above 5% expected kicking efficiency. Carlton have 3. Bulldogs are rated the best-kick team on the competition.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Has anyone else watched the Purefooty segment from David King and Daniel Hoyne?
Pretty interesting stuff from 20 mins onwards about us, and how things are not as bad as they seem. Will try to paraphrase the main points:
Essentially, the expected result based on an average footy game based on shots taken is that we should have won by 8 points.
We had 27 forward-half intercepts. Port had 21. The return from those for us was 1 goal 7 behinds. Port's was 4 goals 1 behind.
D50 to F50 transition - coast to coast. Port had 3 scores - 3 goals. We had 3 scores from our chains - for 1 goal.
Kicking efficiency in forward half of the ground. Port 63%. Us 47%.
Our system generated very similar numbers to Port. Difference is Port took their chances, and we didn't (in terms of scoring goals).

Did it go into any detail about where the shots were taken from, or how much pressure they were under if on the run? We certainly didn't have the space in our forward line that Port did, which suggests that workrate was a problem, and those raw stats you mention aren't the whole story.

 

[norway blue]

Sam takes the easy dinky option . It’s coached but someone has to do it . I’m more interested in him up the ground and who takes his spot off half back .


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[Bobmonkey]

Bulldogs are rated the best-kick team on the competition.

It's pretty impressive how they've been able to transform the team since 2016. And they still haven't even played Jamarra Ugle-Hagan.

 

[Arr0w]

Stats are overrated when no context is present.

Too many times he needs a team mate to take a contested or under pressure mark to bail his disposal out.

That will show in stats as being efficient but in the game and to the eye his kicking isn't anything special.

Given how often we as a team turn the ball over through poor disposal even saying he's top 3 for efficiency doesn't really say much in a team with such average kicking skills.

If he is kicking short, how are his teammates bailing him out when he hits open targets? Marking the ball?

Given how often others turn the ball over is an indictment on SPS hitting targets by foot?

The negative agendas regarding SPS are truly bizarre

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

there is no stat to really show what is a good kick which make all efficiency stats sort of pointless without some clear context.
Newman used to cop it on here abit about him turning it over but more times then not it was an aggressive kick. Doc is a prime example of someone who can run at a very high efficiency but stuff up the majority of aggressive kicks.

 

[Jamie007]

Sam takes the easy dinky option . It’s coached but someone has to do it . I’m more interested in him up the ground and who takes his spot off half back .


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SPS has been doing these dinky short kicks since he was drafted. I was banging on about it in his first year (and was shouted down) and nothing's changed. So its not something Teague did but it should be something Teague gets him to change.

 

[Hands On]

I’m feeling Sps will be moved centre /forward soon . He’s done his apprenticeship . Just my opinion.


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Was his apprenticeship to develop a defensive side to his game? has he succeeded?

 

[The Bighouse]

Just wondering how the Marc Murphy 300 games will be broached in the media vs that of Nathan Jones this week.

MM not in any form worth writing about & hardly impacting in games in an inconsistent team.

Nath Jones having a run in a top 2 team & still having an input on-field.

 

[DangerousD]

where do you think any progressive thinking person's line is?

I think we are all different, which is why I asked for your opinion.

I wouldn’t be comfortable with the club having someone like Wayne Carey working at the club, for quite a few reasons, I would though be more than happy for the club to recruit Toby Greene despite his on field indiscretions.

 

[thylacine60]

jones was borderline cooked a year or two back - funny how form can improve when the team is playing better.........

 

[thylacine60]

on field stuff irks me far less than off field - if n stevens was welcomed back for instance, that would be it for me............

 

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

you can't coach focused aggression, you can't coach love for the jumper, you can't coach win at all costs mentality, you can't coach never give up ruthlessness, all these things must be internally motivated and if they require continual external stimulation then I'm afraid the group we have is the wrong group

We need 9 Walshes and 9 Jsos’s

 

[Jeremias]

Nath Jones having a run in a top 2 team & still having an input on-field.

Classic case of the grass is greener on the other side.

Jones is averaging 13 touches and a bit over 1 tackle per game this season.

8 touches on the weekend, 10 the week before.

Having an input on-field is a stretch, he would not be playing this coming weekend if it wasn't his 300th or the lead up to it.

 

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

you can't coach focused aggression, you can't coach love for the jumper, you can't coach win at all costs mentality, you can't coach never give up ruthlessness, all these things must be internally motivated and if they require continual external stimulation then I'm afraid the group we have is the wrong group

One of your best

 

[norway blue]

Was his apprenticeship to develop a defensive side to his game? has he succeeded?

He retains and he does have tough moments. He not Robinson


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[The Bighouse]

Classic case of the grass is greener on the other side.

Jones is averaging 13 touches and a bit over 1 tackle per game this season.

8 touches on the weekend, 10 the week before.

Having an input on-field is a stretch, he would not be playing this coming weekend if it wasn't his 300th or the lead up to it.

Grass is greener in top 2 team... if I remember from 20yrs ago.

 

[Juddafideslenko]

And that has been the tale of all three losses this season.
Not taking our chances when we are in control and poor disposal as we don't take these chances and the pressure mounts

Has anyone else watched the Purefooty segment from David King and Daniel Hoyne?
Pretty interesting stuff from 20 mins onwards about us, and how things are not as bad as they seem. Will try to paraphrase the main points:
Essentially, the expected result based on an average footy game based on shots taken is that we should have won by 8 points.
We had 27 forward-half intercepts. Port had 21. The return from those for us was 1 goal 7 behinds. Port's was 4 goals 1 behind.
D50 to F50 transition - coast to coast. Port had 3 scores - 3 goals. We had 3 scores from our chains - for 1 goal.
Kicking efficiency in forward half of the ground. Port 63%. Us 47%.
Our system generated very similar numbers to Port. Difference is Port took their chances, and we didn't (in terms of scoring goals).

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[Jeremias]

Grass is greener in top 2 team... if I remember from 20yrs ago.

They are a better side than us, has nothing to do with your original point re: Jones.

They're nursing him to 300 - rightly so - but he's certainly not having anywhere near the impact you seemed to be suggesting.

 

[thylacine60]

he's playing better than murphy but basically, so am I.............

 

[SurreyBlue]

That's interesting.

It makes sense when you think about it. We talk about midfielders needing to be two way runners and that is true to an extent. However, if players make themselves dangerous, their opponent is not going to set off to potentially be part of an attacking play, if it means they are leaving their opponent alone up forward.

We can have attacking mids and defensive mids but we don't have the players that the opposition are scared to leave alone in case of turnover. They back their own systems to take advantage of the extra man.

Ideally we'd want defensive mids to go back into defence to help out and attacking mids to go forward to provide an option. This would limit running and players blowing up at the end of quarters. It's not always that easy though.

One last time - Midfielders that win the ball and use the ball translates to opposition not been able to win the ball. Richmond like all current good sides, Geelong, WC, Port, Brisbane, bank on winning the ball and then using it well or running hard forward to create options and space. They defend as one team and pressure with a pack mentality mindset, they don’t tag. They count on winning the ball at the contest and moving it forward.

We have the players to achieve this but sorry to say, aren’t coached to play this way. This is evident by continuously playing defensive minded players on wings and midfield, you know who they are, placing players behind the ball, pushing our ball winners into a forward or back position on the ground and coaching the natural instincts out of them.

Play our players back in their rightful position and let them hunt and win the ball. Kennedy, Setterfield, Fisher, SPS, Martin, Stocker, O’Brien, Dow, Cuningham along with Cripps, Williams, Murphy are all ball winners. Can’t play them all, sure, but you can play and rotate most with 5 starting and 4 rotating. Let them play their natural game and teach them team defence.

The end.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

That's interesting.

It makes sense when you think about it. We talk about midfielders needing to be two way runners and that is true to an extent. However, if players make themselves dangerous, their opponent is not going to set off to potentially be part of an attacking play, if it means they are leaving their opponent alone up forward.

We can have attacking mids and defensive mids but we don't have the players that the opposition are scared to leave alone in case of turnover. They back their own systems to take advantage of the extra man.

Ideally we'd want defensive mids to go back into defence to help out and attacking mids to go forward to provide an option. This would limit running and players blowing up at the end of quarters. It's not always that easy though.

Think the main issue with it is SPS isn't the player that Dusty is and we aren't the team that Richmond is so its easy for him to get subjected to playing a standard positional role instead of a role designed to maximise his impact on a game.

Having SPS play as an offensive mid sounds great in theory but reality is our midfield may just be too thin that Teague doesn't have the faith to allow players to play specialised offensive roles. Richmond have Graham, Macintosh, Cotchin, Prestia, Lambert and Edwards who cover huge ground to cover for lesser endurance athletes such as Dusty and Bolton. We have Walsh Cottrell and Ed, two of which aren't great users to get the ball up field. All our other mids may be skilled or talented, but none have the big tanks to cover defensively like the elite teams do.

If we had 2-3 other hard running midfielders who win plenty of the ball I don't think SPS would be playing behind the ball. I think they see him as someone they need to get the ball for his development and clearly they don't believe he's up for playing midfield full time, so they chuck him behind the ball where he's sure to get touches.

 

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

Has anyone else watched the Purefooty segment from David King and Daniel Hoyne?
Pretty interesting stuff from 20 mins onwards about us, and how things are not as bad as they seem. Will try to paraphrase the main points:
Essentially, the expected result based on an average footy game based on shots taken is that we should have won by 8 points.
We had 27 forward-half intercepts. Port had 21. The return from those for us was 1 goal 7 behinds. Port's was 4 goals 1 behind.
D50 to F50 transition - coast to coast. Port had 3 scores - 3 goals. We had 3 scores from our chains - for 1 goal.
Kicking efficiency in forward half of the ground. Port 63%. Us 47%.
Our system generated very similar numbers to Port. Difference is Port took their chances, and we didn't (in terms of scoring goals).

Yep the best teams take their chances.
We miss a set shot from 30, shrug our shoulders and move on....

 

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

Sam takes the easy dinky option . It’s coached but someone has to do it . I’m more interested in him up the ground and who takes his spot off half back .


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Newman

 

[norway blue]

Was his apprenticeship to develop a defensive side to his game? has he succeeded?

His defence was retaining. Agree need to get him up the ground . Grrrr


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