Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

[KnobHead]

It is imo because I’d say you are in the majority in saying that and he is giving himself zero excuses for losses. It’s about developing the kids now and gifting games and continuing to play kids when they are poor hasn’t worked. Also gifting games to kids who are liabilities stuffs the development of the better kids who are actually earning a game to play.

Definitely shouldn’t be gifting games to younger players, but if we’re gifting games to older players it’s not exactly going to help player development.

People talk about Stocker’s defensive pressure keeping him out. Could probably name 10 players getting a senior game that haven’t shown great defensive pressure.


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[Coops93]

When was the last time a big name from our team was dropped? Not injured or managed, outright dropped?

McGovern maybe? But even that was done under the guise of giving him a fitness/training block as opposed to form.

Like has been said, it's something we've all felt but seeing it put down in the written form hits a bit different. Our age profile on the field last game being in the top 5 for oldest teams in the league that round is pretty worrying. I know Teague got his job putting faith in the older boys and getting a few Ws but that has well and truly sailed now, the kids need a go.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Definitely shouldn’t be gifting games to younger players, but if we’re gifting games to older players it’s not exactly going to help player development.

People talk about Stocker’s defensive pressure keeping him out. Could probably name 10 players getting a senior game that haven’t shown great defensive pressure.


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Stoker will play this week though, he hadn’t deserved it before hand.
The thinking imo is possibly holding him back and making him actually meet expectations is best for him. The older player is somewhat irrelevant in it all.
This is where I think I differ to most, for me the older player is irrelevant, but that does not mean play the younger players. It means develop them properly.

 

[thylacine60]

Nick Stevens and a few others would beg to differ. (Boekhorst, Russel, plenty more) That said - 100% agree with what you say. Always the odd self absorbed characters though.

There sure are.

 

[Michael Jezz]

Mark Le Giudace and Cain Liddle are consultant junkies. It is not surprising that the next president Luke Sayers is also a consultant. The problem with consultancy mania is it deflects responsibility from people that are elected and paid to make decisions and further evidences the disconnect between the board and the football department. MLG and Cain Liddle are business smart but football dumb. The solution to this problem is to elect a diverse board not based on identity politics but on capacity- Smarter football people please

 

[mediumsizered]

Mark Le Giudace and Cain Liddle are consultant junkies. It is not surprising that the next president Luke Sayers is also a consultant. The problem with consultancy mania is it deflects responsibility from people that are elected and paid to make decisions and further evidences the disconnect between the board and the football department. MLG and Cain Liddle are business smart but football dumb. The solution to this problem is to elect a diverse board not based on identity politics but on capacity- Smarter football people please

Do you mean like Peggy March at Richmond? Perhaps someone like Frank Costa who oversaw Geelong's dynasty? Jeff Kennett at Hawthorn? David Koch at Port? MLG & Liddle are not responsible for the players failing to execute properly when disposing of the ball. Nor can they take the blame for players missing gettable shots at goal (a previous post outlines the difference between our outcomes & Port's outcomes on F50 entries last week). In much the same way that Peggy March can't claim credit for Dusty Martin becoming the best player in the comp. Or the leadership ability of Trent Cotchin.

FWIW, Liddle has played & coached the game.

 

[Pentatonic Flat Fifth]

Depends what he's doing. If he's coaching, then I agree, but the way the position is outlined he's not coaching so much as providing advice and mentorship.

And, if we're talking about people I'd prefer, it might be heresy but Neil Balme would've been a better get.

My gut feeling is that like Eddie, Murphy and even Teague / Voss, this is a political and at board level like almost everything that has happened at Carlton for the last 20 years to destroy this club.

It absolutely STINKS of power money from one of the big 3 factions (my money is on Mathieson) demanding some sort of review / accountability as he pushes his way around and this was done to placate him - or one of the other factions.

It really is getting tiresome.

Watching Collingwood, Bombers, Carlton and now Hawthorn all tear themselves apart from factional fighting while Tigers, Cats come together and ravage the rest of us.

Discussions on SEN last few days regarding Members Votes seems more relevant with every passing minute.


EDIT:
I think people need to read things like this and understand just how broken our club is due the boards behaviour. I genuinely stand behind LoGiudice, I think most people, probably everyone has the best interests in mind, however the total lack of self awareness around peoples egos, and overinflated sense of capability is a real issue. Find your strengths, stick to them, above all recognize others, and let people do their jobs.

Carlton board and benefactors under attack

John Hollingsworth is taking on club president Mark LoGiudice and has slammed the Carlton board for the repeated “hiring and firing” of coaches in a lengthy period of “instability” and “under-performance”.

www.theage.com.au

 

[El Topo]

It absolutely STINKS of power money from one of the big 3 factions (my money is on Mathieson) demanding some sort of review / accountability as he pushes his way around and this was done to placate him - or one of the other factions.

In fairness to the Hut-like creatures who run the CFC from behind the scenes, the side's performance has been mediocre to appalling since the bye last year - accountability is long overdue.

 

[teagueyubeauty]

The point of the article is that we haven’t dropped/made to earn any of the underperforming senior players, not that the kids have had it too easy

Bingo, absolutely the crux of the article and is totally factual


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[Gethelred]

In fairness to the Hut-like creatures who run the CFC from behind the scenes, the side's performance has been mediocre to appalling since the bye last year - accountability is long overdue.

I suppose that's the thing; if it's accountability, I very much doubt there's any issue from any quarter. It's the hint of an agenda that lurks behind the scenes that makes me wary.

 

[Pentatonic Flat Fifth]

In fairness to the Hut-like creatures who run the CFC from behind the scenes, the side's performance has been mediocre to appalling since the bye last year - accountability is long overdue.

Totally agree - my problem is how its done, why its done (placating power brokers), and how its announced or presented to the fans. There is such an horrific and complete disregard for Carlton members and supporters. It's almost disdain.


We are told nothing, always, absolutely always lied to, and not a single bit of truth is ever divulged.

 

[Zlatan]

In fairness to the Hut-like creatures who run the CFC from behind the scenes, the side's performance has been mediocre to appalling since the bye last year - accountability is long overdue.

Agree. Sitting on our hands would have achieved nothing, so I’m happy to see the club doing something (anything) to try and turn things around.

The effectiveness remains to be seen, but nothing will change overnight.

 

[thylacine60]

As an Ex Soldier, I assure you that focused aggression, love for the uniform, win at all costs and ruthlessness can indeed be taught and instilled in young men.

While I always prefer the carrot to the stick, sometimes you've gotta drive some tough love into blokes. Our standards are too low, players are not playing for each other, are not prepared to go when it's their time to go, and are not going in hard enough, or sacrificing their own game to make others around them better.

I'm hoping for manic pressure this weekend. I don't want to see a single opposition player with time and space to spot up a teammate. I want to see rushed kicks from the oppo due to intense pressure we bring resulting in turnovers and less than optimal decisions being made in haste. If we can get that kind of pressure game going, it then needs to be sustained.

Hear what you're saying but dealing with people invested in how best to stay alive and overpaid sporting participants just chasing a kick could possibly be seen as slightly different clientele.

 

[Original Moody Blue]

Hear what you're saying but dealing with people invested in how best to stay alive and overpaid sporting participants just chasing a kick could possibly be seen as slightly different clientele.

Bob Chitty the Carlton Captain Coach, lost part of his finger in a work accident on a Thursday, still played on the saturday. You just don't see that sort of determination anymore. In those days VFL players would regularly work on a Saturday morning, then finish at noon or 1.00pm and go and play footy.

 

[thylacine60]

Bob Chitty the Carlton Captain Coach, lost part of his finger in a work accident on a Thursday, still played on the saturday. You just don't see that sort of determination anymore. In those days VFL players would regularly work on a Saturday morning, then finish at noon or 1.00pm and go and play footy.

Yeah, we tend to live in more enlightened times. Chitty was worried he might miss out on thumping someone. I hear what you're saying though.

 

[out of harmes' way]

Not trying to oppose you here, just curious, why are they are joke for trying to address a clear issue?

What would you prefer, keep going the same course or start swinging the axe across the whole coaching department?

The joke of a club is fairly and squarely directed at this incompetent board. Glad they've wiped debt and built membership but I for one, and I'm sure I speak for many, are over our insipid onfield performances year, upon year. Major questions need to be asked about:

1. Player development -SPS,etc.
2. Drafting- LOB, etc. Thanks SOS
3. Assistant coaches Barker 10 years+
4. Club culture -EPIC FAIL whenever tested - Collingwood, Port 2021

From the club that gave us the 66 game reset.

 

[Big Bank]

In fairness to the Hut-like creatures who run the CFC from behind the scenes, the side's performance has been mediocre to appalling since the bye last year - accountability is long overdue.

Massive lol at Hut-like creatures

 

[Stamos]

The joke of a club is fairly and squarely directed at this incompetent board. Glad they've wiped debt and built membership but I for one, and I'm sure I speak for many, are over our insipid onfield performances year, upon year. Major questions need to be asked about:

1. Player development -SPS,etc.
2. Drafting- LOB, etc. Thanks SOS
3. Assistant coaches Barker 10 years+
4. Club culture -EPIC FAIL whenever tested - Collingwood, Port 2021

From the club that gave us the 66 game reset.

If the board are incompetent, how were they able to wipe the massive historical debt, build membership to record levels, get the Princes Park development up etc.?

Our development has been poor, and we have addressed it. We've changed our list management.

Our problems are very much at a Football Department level. That's not to say the board is perfect, but I think your wrath is misplaced.

 

[Original Moody Blue]

Yeah, we tend to live in more enlightened times. Chitty was worried he might miss out on thumping someone. I hear what you're saying though.

It was the Great depression, and people did what they could to survive and earn an extra dollar. There was no medicare, social security, rent assistance, or wellness manager. They did not have access to penicillin so a cut or errand boot stud on those muddy grounds could result in sepsis and lead to death. More than one VFL footballer died because of this ailment. Our generation has avoided all of these hardships thanks to a lot of sacrifice by others. Lest we forget.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

The joke of a club is fairly and squarely directed at this incompetent board. Glad they've wiped debt and built membership but I for one, and I'm sure I speak for many, are over our insipid onfield performances year, upon year. Major questions need to be asked about:

1. Player development -SPS,etc.
2. Drafting- LOB, etc. Thanks SOS
3. Assistant coaches Barker 10 years+
4. Club culture -EPIC FAIL whenever tested - Collingwood, Port 2021

From the club that gave us the 66 game reset.

Yeah I get the frustration but still don't understand how that has anything to do with appointing Woosha? And how can it be seen as a joke... well not yet at least, let's give him a go first instead of assuming it's another dumb move

 

[carlton_99]

 

[out of harmes' way]

If the board are incompetent, how were they able to wipe the massive historical debt, build membership to record levels, get the Princes Park development up etc.?

Our development has been poor, and we have addressed it. We've changed our list management.

Our problems are very much at a Football Department level. That's not to say the board is perfect, but I think your wrath is misplaced.

Thought a board was responsible for all aspects of a football club, not just off-field. Also, I did acknowledge the fact that they've wiped debt and increased membership. It all matters but what really matters now is on-field success. Not a team that has 2/3s of its players go missing every time the going gets tough.

 

[Michael Jezz]

Do you mean like Peggy March at Richmond? Perhaps someone like Frank Costa who oversaw Geelong's dynasty? Jeff Kennett at Hawthorn? David Koch at Port? MLG & Liddle are not responsible for the players failing to execute properly when disposing of the ball. Nor can they take the blame for players missing gettable shots at goal (a previous post outlines the difference between our outcomes & Port's outcomes on F50 entries last week). In much the same way that Peggy March can't claim credit for Dusty Martin becoming the best player in the comp. Or the leadership ability of Trent Cotchin.

FWIW, Liddle has played & coached the game.

You didn't understand the post. Liddle and MLG are responsible for the appointments and as a board or GM it is your responsibility to work out what is wrong. If you have to pay someone to do the board and GMs job-what is the point of having those roles in the first place

 

[Stamos]

Thought a board was responsible for all aspects of a football club, not just off-field. Also, I did acknowledge the fact that they've wiped debt and increased membership. It all matters but what really matters now is on-field success. Not a team that has 2/3s of its players go missing every time the going gets tough.

They are responsible for all aspects of the football club, but they can't make the players perform.
They can just put the right things in place to bring the best chance of success. They're certainly not perfect, but they have fixed a hell of a lot of our historical problems. It seems there would be better targets of your ire.

 

[Iamcarlton]

It was interesting until I read the best examples they could provide from the 17 other clubs were:

Daniel Rioli - same draft as Kennedy and Cuningham

Stephen Coniglio - dropped for 1 game..

Jason Johannisen - hasn't been dropped...

Jared Polec - rebuilding club

Mason Cox - righto, may as well include Moore

Mitch Wallis, Nathan Broad - luxury of being on top without a depleted list

Then has a bob each way to contradict themselves and say we shouldn't be playing SPS. What will be the rhetoric should we drop him for Newman in a few weeks.

More of the same, just a cheap shot while we're down.

Doesnt matter if they are dropped for 1 game or 10 its the message thats the important thing .
Nathan Jones is another from last year so thats 2 captains of recent times .
Tom Mcdonald is also another from last year and im sure there is more .
Point is its damning that we only drop players that are young and starting out .