Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

[thylacine60]

It was the Great depression, and people did what they could to survive and earn an extra dollar. There was no medicare, social security, rent assistance, or wellness manager. They did not have access to penicillin so a cut or errand boot stud on those muddy grounds could result in sepsis and lead to death. More than one VFL footballer died because of this ailment. Our generation has avoided all of these hardships thanks to a lot of sacrifice by others. Lest we forget.

Your timing is appropriate but think we're moving away from current day mores. Nice to hear you praising others too.

 

[Gavstar]

Doesnt matter if they are dropped for 1 game or 10 its the message thats the important thing .
Nathan Jones is another from last year so thats 2 captains of recent times .
Tom Mcdonald is also another from last year and im sure there is more .
Point is its damning that we only drop players that are young and starting out .

Clarko dropped Roughie (ex-captain at that stage) and basically told Mitchell and Lewis to think about playing elsewhere......

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

It was interesting until I read the best examples they could provide from the 17 other clubs were:

Daniel Rioli - same draft as Kennedy and Cuningham

Stephen Coniglio - dropped for 1 game..

Jason Johannisen - hasn't been dropped...

Jared Polec - rebuilding club

Mason Cox - righto, may as well include Moore

Mitch Wallis, Nathan Broad - luxury of being on top without a depleted list

Then has a bob each way to contradict themselves and say we shouldn't be playing SPS. What will be the rhetoric should we drop him for Newman in a few weeks.

More of the same, just a cheap shot while we're down.

Dees dropped Neville Jetta last year too.

I don't quite get this luxury of being on top reasoning you use for the Dogs or Tigers. They dropped them because of form to get in someone with better form.

You don't play out of form senior players simply because you're only midtable on the ladder. They're out of form. They've helped to only get you to midtable.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Clarko dropped Roughie (ex-captain at that stage) and basically told Mitchell and Lewis to think about playing elsewhere......

100% if we were a strong club we would have told Marc & Eddie to retire with dignity at the end of last year, instead for what ever reason we kept them on..

 

[Brackets]

Dees dropped Neville Jetta last year too.

I don't quite get this luxury of being on top reasoning you use for the Dogs or Tigers. They dropped them because of form to get in someone with better form.

You don't play out of form senior players simply because you're only midtable on the ladder. They're out of form. They've helped to only get you to midtable.

Okay so what, 2 - 5 examples across 17 other clubs. No analysis as to the injuries sustained in that period, the potential cover in positions, whether or not those in reserves were meeting expectations or even avaliable, the number of young players that were given games across clubs etc.

When you already have Martin and Fisher out injured, it's not a straightforward call to bring in say Owies for a Murphy or Betts for instance.

There's a fair exaggeration occuring as to the relative form of our players who we are supposedly gifting games to. We've pushed out the likes of Thomas and Simpson to open up spots, for players more likely to be part of our future.

It's simplistic analysis imo, and could very well be more about the development of the likes of Stocker than it is about looking after Murphy. Each to their own though.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Okay so what, 2 - 5 examples across 17 other clubs. No analysis as to the injuries sustained in that period, the potential cover in positions, whether or not those in reserves were meeting expectations or even avaliable, the number of young players that were given games across clubs etc.

When you already have Martin and Fisher out injured, it's not a straightforward call to bring in say Owies for a Murphy or Betts for instance.

There's a fair exaggeration occuring as to the relative form of our players who we are supposedly gifting games to. We've pushed out the likes of Thomas and Simpson to open up spots, for players more likely to be part of our future.

It's simplistic analysis imo, and could very well be more about the development of the likes of Stocker than it is about looking after Murphy. Each to their own though.

This. Possibly abit of not being able to see the forest from the trees

 

[Blue and Silver]

Clarko dropped Roughie (ex-captain at that stage) and basically told Mitchell and Lewis to think about playing elsewhere......

I don't want to be the guy. But the Hawks haven't exactly been great for a while now, particularly since these moves

On SM-A515F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[AB_Blue]

Who’s the last senior player that we dropped for bring out of form....I’m taking a 150+ game player?


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[Coops93]

Who’s the last senior player that we dropped for bring out of form....I’m taking a 150+ game player?


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Dennis Armfield?

145 games but close enough.

 

[El Topo]

Who’s the last senior player that we dropped for bring out of form....I’m taking a 150+ game player?


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Harry Vallence?

 

[katmanblue]

1.30 Sunday? Get ****ed AFL.

 

[Gethelred]

100% if we were a strong club we would have told Marc & Eddie to retire with dignity at the end of last year, instead for what ever reason we kept them on..

If we were a strong club, we'd have players in their roles who could've stepped in and taken their positions.

 

[Pentatonic Flat Fifth]

Okay so what, 2 - 5 examples across 17 other clubs. No analysis as to the injuries sustained in that period, the potential cover in positions, whether or not those in reserves were meeting expectations or even avaliable, the number of young players that were given games across clubs etc.

When you already have Martin and Fisher out injured, it's not a straightforward call to bring in say Owies for a Murphy or Betts for instance.

There's a fair exaggeration occuring as to the relative form of our players who we are supposedly gifting games to. We've pushed out the likes of Thomas and Simpson to open up spots, for players more likely to be part of our future.

It's simplistic analysis imo, and could very well be more about the development of the likes of Stocker than it is about looking after Murphy. Each to their own though.

Its got absolutely nothing to do with just bringing in younger players - you talk about simplistic, and analysis.

Murphy and Betts need to be dropped because their input, statically, is not just poor, but shockingly bad - like seriously bad.

Betts is averaging around 5 touches a game, both are less than a tackle a game, and neither are scoring with any reasonable consistentency with both FREQUENTLY scoring nothing at all - there is simply no room in AFL for that level of mediocrity - this is especially true when you are trying to develop new players. (Across the board their stats are bad, from pressure acts, 1%ers etc - all bad)

There are probably half a dozen articles in the media over the last few days detailing how well some of our younger players are doing - there is one on the Carlton website today about Owies.

Murphy and Betts 100%, without any question on this matter - do not deserve their place in the side due to the performance over the last 5 weeks.

Conversely based on match, coach, and industry journalists reports, the forward options of Cuningham, Owies, Philp all deserve a crack.

Thats all anyone can go on.

Outside of this people are simply expressing a personal, emotional connection with Murphy and Betts - they are not performing, there are others performing POSSIBLY AS WELL, we need to develop, we are losing games - pull the trigger.

 

[Gethelred]

It was the Great depression, and people did what they could to survive and earn an extra dollar. There was no medicare, social security, rent assistance, or wellness manager. They did not have access to penicillin so a cut or errand boot stud on those muddy grounds could result in sepsis and lead to death. More than one VFL footballer died because of this ailment. Our generation has avoided all of these hardships thanks to a lot of sacrifice by others. Lest we forget.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here, Moody. Are you saying that the players these days are soft? Because I'd be interested in watching older generations try to run the on average 16 km per game AFL midfields run or the scrutiny they live their lives under. Are you saying that we need to start threatening people with sepsis or life threatening financial hardship to try and force the players to play to a satisfactory standard?

I'm genuinely curious about what you mean by the comparison.

 

[Pentatonic Flat Fifth]

If we were a strong club, we'd have players in their roles who could've stepped in and taken their positions.

Betts was brought in for reasons other than just playing the game, this has been alluded to / admitted - from player development to "snagging" Williams, to marketing. Murphy I believe is also there for reasons beyond just playing.

Again - this goes to board, executive culture at Carlton where our performances are being sacrificed for back room reasons. Fans lose.

 

[mediumsizered]

You didn't understand the post. Liddle and MLG are responsible for the appointments and as a board or GM it is your responsibility to work out what is wrong. If you have to pay someone to do the board and GMs job-what is the point of having those roles in the first place

Liddle & MLG have done so much to ensure our club is strong off field & put all the pillars in place for us to be successful on the field. Debt paid off, diverse revenue streams, record memberships, our Football Dept better equipped than any time in its history, we now have our own reserves team & our facilities are in the process of being refurbished yet again. Keep in mind that Liddle has only been at the club for 3 (?) years.

With all these pillars in place, it is now up to the Football Dept to do its bit & this doesn't just mean the coaches & recruiters, but also the players, many of whom are at the stage of having to shape up or ship out.

If this season fizzles out, like so many that have gone before it, then this will give the board/CEO every excuse to sweep a broom through our Football Dept.

Our club is in rude health off the field. There are no excuses for the coaches & players. This isn't circa 2005 with shit facilities & a skeleton Football Dept. The heat needs to be turned up on the right people at the club & this starts with the players.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Its got absolutely nothing to do with just bringing in younger players - you talk about simplistic, and analysis.

Murphy and Betts need to be dropped because their input, statically, is not just poor, but shockingly bad - like seriously bad.

Betts is averaging around 5 touches a game, both are less than a tackle a game, and neither are scoring with any reasonable consistentency with both FREQUENTLY scoring nothing at all - there is simply no room in AFL for that level of mediocrity - this is especially true when you are trying to develop new players. (Across the board their stats are bad, from pressure acts, 1%ers etc - all bad)

There are probably half a dozen articles in the media over the last few days detailing how well some of our younger players are doing - there is one on the Carlton website today about Owies.

Murphy and Betts 100%, without any question on this matter - do not deserve their place in the side due to the performance over the last 5 weeks.

Conversely based on match, coach, and industry journalists reports, the forward options of Cuningham, Owies, Philp all deserve a crack.

Thats all anyone can go on.

Outside of this people are simply expressing a personal, emotional connection with Murphy and Betts - they are not performing, there are others performing POSSIBLY AS WELL, we need to develop, we are losing games - pull the trigger.

Spot on, the last 10 games of 2020 Betts was woeful, some fans used the hub as an excuse and forgave him.. but this year has shown he simply is not up to AFL standard anymore.

Murphy probably deserved an opportunity to reinvent himself in a new role, but he hasn’t been able to tackle since his shoulder injury so was never going to be able to provide the pressure we needed in the fwd half.

 

[thylacine60]

just very quietly they can shove this roostering up their arses till they start winning games................read the room, marketing department............

 

[JustaBattler]

Spot on, the last 10 games of 2020 Betts was woeful, some fans used the hub as an excuse and forgave him.. but this year has shown he simply is not up to AFL standard anymore.

Murphy probably deserved an opportunity to reinvent himself in a new role, but he hasn’t been able to tackle since his shoulder injury so was never going to be able to provide the pressure we needed in the fwd half.

I've been a huge critic of Murphy's defensive and contested efforts based on vision and facts - for years now. His running , his ability to spot a target and hit it are still there, his long range goal kicking and even set shot kicks from 35+ is no longer there.

Based on vision and facts in the game against Port- Murphy went in for the hard ball when it was his turn on a number of occassions- and to underline the point - his hard attack on the footy led to a Port player coming off with an injured shoulder straight after that contest - I stated previously that I think the message has gone out to Murphy and as far as effort for contested ball goes he played his role.

Open field tackling is an all together different isue with him I dont think he ahs used his leg speed to chase down and tackle an oppostion player in memory. But he isnt alone as far as that goes - tackling and harrassment is one of Eddies strengths- when he can get to a contest that is his problem his ability to lead and find space and present as a target is now limited - I do beleive that he has been put in there for defensive puroposes and close to goal sharp shooting - he too cant kcik a ball 35+ meter anymopre as was on shopw in teh game.

Both these blokes have to be assessed against a totality of measures - it is nthis context that likely replacements are judged. If Fisher/SOJ/Martin were available - I doubt both would be playing if either. Arguments can be made for Cuningham over one of them - the jury is out on OWies and most opnion says Durdin is nowhere near it as alternative smaller forward options go.

 

[Pentatonic Flat Fifth]

I've been a huge critic of Murphy's defensive and contested efforts based on vision and facts - for years now. His running , his ability to spot a target and hit it are still there, his long range goal kicking and even set shot kicks from 35+ is no longer there.

Based on vision and facts in the game against Port- Murphy went in for the hard ball when it was his turn on a number of occassions- and to underline the point - his hard attack on the footy led to a Port player coming off with an injured shoulder straight after that contest - I stated previously that I think the message has gone out to Murphy and as far as effort for contested ball goes he played his role.

Open field tackling is an all together different isue with him I dont think he ahs used his leg speed to chase down and tackle an oppostion player in memory. But he isnt alone as far as that goes - tackling and harrassment is one of Eddies strengths- when he can get to a contest that is his problem his ability to lead and find space and present as a target is now limited - I do beleive that he has been put in there for defensive puroposes and close to goal sharp shooting - he too cant kcik a ball 35+ meter anymopre as was on shopw in teh game.

Both these blokes have to be assessed against a totality of measures - it is nthis context that likely replacements are judged. If Fisher/SOJ/Martin were available - I doubt both would be playing if either. Arguments can be made for Cuningham over one of them - the jury is out on OWies and most opnion says Durdin is nowhere near it as alternative smaller forward options go.

Philps and Honey are also listed as a forwards. Philps has had some good words said prior to and post return from injury.

Forgot about Betts dish off 35 meters out - grrrrr!!

 

[BigBreakfast]

Very frustrated that SPS does so many short kicks. We’d be winning every game if every player kicked long every time.


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So they all just kick long? Any particular style? Just bomb it, long to space? I curious, largely because I lament the long kick to a pack strategy we have relied on so significantly in our recent history.

 

[Michael Jezz]

Liddle & MLG have done so much to ensure our club is strong off field & put all the pillars in place for us to be successful on the field. Debt paid off, diverse revenue streams, record memberships, our Football Dept better equipped than any time in its history, we now have our own reserves team & our facilities are in the process of being refurbished yet again. Keep in mind that Liddle has only been at the club for 3 (?) years.

With all these pillars in place, it is now up to the Football Dept to do its bit & this doesn't just mean the coaches & recruiters, but also the players, many of whom are at the stage of having to shape up or ship out.

If this season fizzles out, like so many that have gone before it, then this will give the board/CEO every excuse to sweep a broom through our Football Dept.

Our club is in rude health off the field. There are no excuses for the coaches & players. This isn't circa 2005 with sh*t facilities & a skeleton Football Dept. The heat needs to be turned up on the right people at the club & this starts with the players.

Wrong- George Harris ran a football club. Recruited Barrassi - Set up the Social Club and various revenue streams
Jack Elliot ran a football club Recruited Sticks, Braddles, Dorra then pulled sponsors, built stands etc
Dick Pratt ran a football club Recruited Judd, hired Swan, Ashman, De Bolfo and poured his money in
MLG and Liddle Too disconnected or make terrible football appointments

 

[carlton_99]

just very quietly they can shove this roostering up their arses till they start winning games................read the room, marketing department............

This was posted on Jack Martin's instagram - got nothing to do with Carlton's media department

 

[thylacine60]

Then Jack Martin

19

Jack Martin

Age

30

Ht

186cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.2

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

6.3

4star

M

4.9

5star

T

3.7

5star

G

0.9

4star

D

14.9

4star

K

7.9

3star

HB

7.0

4star

M

4.3

4star

T

3.6

4star

G

1.1

5star

D

8.2

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

3.6

3star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.6

3star

's marketing department needs to get better..............it's still pointless roostering............

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Big deal.