Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread

[Funk]

Maybe an ex Richmond employee at Carlton - just a guess.

People who leak to Caro are dicing with death.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Still trying to understand the Lloyd appointment.

Highly regarded within the industry - but Fremantle list and football programme didn’t excite me.

So why was he highly regarded?? (FWIW I’ve worked with plenty of people who managed to network their way to a brilliant profile - but an objective view of their accomplishments painted a different story)

Liddell and SOS have serious runs on board - Lloyd I’m not so sure.

However I must give credit to Lloyd for the Russell & Teague appointments (assuming as Football Manager it was ultimately his call).

If he is pushing SOS out I’m very unhappy.

Interesting times.

I think that's where you need to trust Liddle a bit - good management isn't about finding the person with the best resume, it's about finding the person who will do the job best. As much as Lloyd was part of a somewhat ordinary club in Freo, we know any one person can't be held solely responsible for the success or failure of an organisation. You'd have to assume we believe Lloyd has skills and traits that may not have been utilised effectively at Freo due to the culture, structure, hierarchy, processes etc. and that he has scope to grow into the Football Manager role at Carlton.

 

[DangerousD]

I’m not sure what the big deal is, SOS not being around this time next year, may be, entirely by choice, he can leave whenever he wants, it doesn’t mean there has been any push.
I have long held the view that SOS can’t continue on as list manager if he has 3 kids on the list, maybe he doesn’t want the stress and doesn’t want the pressure on his boys.

This doesn’t say or imply that he hasn’t done a good job.

I doubt he would take another list manager role, as any raids or deal done to the detriment of Carlton will have implications on his kids chances at team success.

 

[Bluezer]

If you “consider this off season a bust” - what would you have done differently?

Personally I wouldn't have had all our eggs in the Papley basket, I thought Butler was a good plan B. Could we have gone harder at Wines? But no real need to go over this it's been covered in 250 pages of waffle since the trade period ended. The problem in my eyes was more that the club presented its members with the message of "We are going for senior bodies" and here we are going to the draft with pick 9. BUT let me be clear, I consider it a good problem to have and what SOS did I am fine with, however it is an out if he/the club want it to be.

 

[btdg]

I’m ok with SOS going.

4 years in charge and we are still 16th.

There was a plan in place based around trading out established players for draft picks, rebuilding from those, and that’s been ok. There’s hits and some bad misses amongst the draft picks but a solid enough plan in place.

Except the late picks, mature pickups and rookie picks have been atrocious and led to far more list churn than anticipated. He’s shown a tendency to over rate players based on previous draft position and underweight the impact of injuries and recent form (eg:Sumner, Pickett, Lang).

He’s also been unable to finish the rebuild by adding the veteran players to fill gaps. Missing on Shiel, Coniglio, Papley, Martin Etc leaves our list too thin. What he’s managed to get - Nick Newman, an overpaid (and overweight) McGovern who might not be best 22, a 32 year old Eddie Betts and a 3rd string ruckman isn’t enough.

End result - we are entering year 5 of a ‘66 game’ rebuild and honestly, likely to finish bottom 4 again unless we get some injury luck and players like Docherty, Marchbank, Setterfield manage to put it together.

At the very least, we have a good foundation to build around which is better than where we were but I wouldn’t mind someone else taking over from here...

 

[BluStreak]

All Barass said was might be on to something. Might does not suggest is.
SOS might have been upset with the GC (AFL) stance on Martin and said Im done with this. in the heat of the moment.
WHO knows????

Until it happens. Why worry about it?

 

[Magruder]

I’m ok with SOS going.

4 years in charge and we are still 16th.

There was a plan in place based around trading out established players for draft picks, rebuilding from those, and that’s been ok. There’s hits and some bad misses amongst the draft picks but a solid enough plan in place.

Except the late picks, mature pickups and rookie picks have been atrocious and led to far more list churn than anticipated. He’s shown a tendency to over rate players based on previous draft position and underweight the impact of injuries and recent form (eg:Sumner, Pickett, Lang).

He’s also been unable to finish the rebuild by adding the veteran players to fill gaps. Missing on Shiel, Coniglio, Papley, Martin Etc leaves our list too thin. What he’s managed to get - Nick Newman, an overpaid (and overweight) McGovern who might not be best 22, a 32 year old Eddie Betts and a 3rd string ruckman isn’t enough.

End result - we are entering year 5 of a ‘66 game’ rebuild and honestly, likely to finish bottom 4 again unless we get some injury luck and players like Docherty, Marchbank, Setterfield manage to put it together.

At the very least, we have a good foundation to build around which is better than where we were but I wouldn’t mind someone else taking over from here...

balanced except for the 2nd line and your penultimate clause in relation to end result.

2015/16 draftees are just starting to enter their prime years so you'd reasonable expect some progress from here rather than an instantaneous improvement from 2016. Afterall it was a 66 game reset.

Wasn't so bothered about Sheil but was bummed over Cognilio and Papley. Martin looks like there wasn't much we could do.
We may yet get Martin in the PSD and the missing parts may be added over time.

I'm still bullish on the list and job done to date.

Real issue for me is conflict of interest and just the nagging feeling that SOS is more suited to the initial heavy lifting of a list build than the finishing it all off...

 

[Dramoth]

Caro might be on the money this time..

The only way that Caro would be on the money this time is if she was talking about the period in 12 to 18 months from now after SOS goes through his final trade/draft period for the club. Then I reckon the club won't be dispensing with his services but the AFL will come knocking and will be wanting him to take over the Sun's list management.

 

[Gethelred]

I can't fathom how anyone could have interfered. Did SOS want to offer more for Papley and Martin? If so, that would have been wrong.

Maybe he didn't want one of them and was forced to go after them? Maybe he wanted to follow the Wines lead and drop the Papley trade?

If anyone interfered to our detriment, they should go, not SOS.

I'm sorry, but we have a clear case in which SOS has been rumoured to have not wanted a player but Teague did in Eddie. Just because we are happy about the outcome does not entail that SOS's job wasn't influenced by other departments within the club. I could see Teague being for it, and being backed up by Liddle, who would be well aware of what Eddie returning would do for us in terms of memberships, good press etc.

With this particular thread - Caro's article and SOS's supposed departure - we'll see. I'd be unhappy if he left (his job is not finished, not yet; we're about a season or three away) but I could understand a change in leadership from a hard line rebuilder to a rookie and later pick expert as leader of the department. It would be a change akin to the removal of Bolton - a developer, whose aim was to improve players for the future - to Teague.

In any case, I think we agree anyway. Let recruiting do their jobs without being dictated to by management. It's what has gotten us into the s**t in the immediate past, and I'd hoped we'd learnt that particular lesson.

 

[gbatman]

Our list build would look very different if the AFL didn't step in with the Coniglio deal, if Essendon didn't screw around with Daniher/Sydney and when we recruit Martin.

There are successful clubs out there who have recruited really good players of high status like this and they haven't had to deal with this sort of crap.

I still think we are going to be in a really good situation come the end of next year when a lot of top talent wants to come to us after we have a strong season. But in saying that it might not happen. A lot riding on 2020, by my calculations this is the season we should be coming good. If we don't then SOS probably goes, if we do then the rebuild looms as a really successful operation.

We've got ourselves in a position where we are not desperate for certain types, we're keen to upgrade on what we have. We say we need small forwards, we already have small forwards, what we should be saying is we would like elite small forwards. Get Martin along with Betts, Gibbons and a fit Cuningham along with the addition of a top junior talent and a more developed Owies and Lang as depth we have something. That's why we're aiming for elite and there wasn't much of that around apart from Papley and due to Sydney and Essendon's circus he became unavailable.

We've been criticised. Wait for the Essendon fans when they lose Daniher for nothing after being offered multiple first round picks this year... Wait for Papley to try and come to us next year which is pretty much a given.

I think we all need to relax and that includes the club and just let things play out next season. We will have our day.

 

[Gethelred]

Caroline Wilson is probably just hearing the same rumours that we have been hearing and putting her own spin on it.

The more I see of Liddle the more I see a CEO that is hyper sensitive to the mood of the membership and also one that is obsessive about the implementation of plans. It would not surprise me if Liddle has been asking SOS difficult questions about why the list management team has failed to bring in establish talent. After all, recruiting established talent was widely spruiked as the next big phase of the rebuild strategy.

If Liddle has been critical of SOS for failing to get in such champions of our sport as Dan Butler, I can easily see how SOS would be contemplating leaving.

People keep assuming that, if we failed to get Papley/Martin and we didn't get anyone else, we lacked a plan B; this being despite the fact that there are a number of delisted players to choose from (Newnes, Roberton) and we still hold pick 9 and can split it to find more of what we want if necessary. Not all plans need come to fruition during the trade period.

Secondly, why would you aim at someone of middling to lower standard? Why not aim for top tier, and seek to improve your list across the board? There was a whole heap of good ordinary citizens traded this year, and criticising us for not participating in that is akin to asking a jeweler why they do not deal in concrete; it isn't their business, and isn't their goal.

 

[Opine]

Maybe an ex Richmond employee at Carlton - just a guess.

Maybe. I'm guessing the same.

 

[Robertio]

I’m ok with SOS going.

4 years in charge and we are still 16th.

There was a plan in place based around trading out established players for draft picks, rebuilding from those, and that’s been ok. There’s hits and some bad misses amongst the draft picks but a solid enough plan in place.

Except the late picks, mature pickups and rookie picks have been atrocious and led to far more list churn than anticipated. He’s shown a tendency to over rate players based on previous draft position and underweight the impact of injuries and recent form (eg:Sumner, Pickett, Lang).

He’s also been unable to finish the rebuild by adding the veteran players to fill gaps. Missing on Shiel, Coniglio, Papley, Martin Etc leaves our list too thin. What he’s managed to get - Nick Newman, an overpaid (and overweight) McGovern who might not be best 22, a 32 year old Eddie Betts and a 3rd string ruckman isn’t enough.

End result - we are entering year 5 of a ‘66 game’ rebuild and honestly, likely to finish bottom 4 again unless we get some injury luck and players like Docherty, Marchbank, Setterfield manage to put it together.

At the very least, we have a good foundation to build around which is better than where we were but I wouldn’t mind someone else taking over from here...

So you honestly think we are going to finish bottom four again next year?

 

[Nori]

If Liddle has been critical of SOS for failing to get in such champions of our sport as Dan Butler, I can easily see how SOS would be contemplating leaving.

People keep assuming that, if we failed to get Papley/Martin and we didn't get anyone else, we lacked a plan B; this being despite the fact that there are a number of delisted players to choose from (Newnes, Roberton) and we still hold pick 9 and can split it to find more of what we want if necessary. Not all plans need come to fruition during the trade period.

Secondly, why would you aim at someone of middling to lower standard? Why not aim for top tier, and seek to improve your list across the board? There was a whole heap of good ordinary citizens traded this year, and criticising us for not participating in that is akin to asking a jeweler why they do not deal in concrete; it isn't their business, and isn't their goal.

I totally agree. We have a heap of talent on the list. The last thing we need are C graders clogging up the list. SOS has only just managed to clear all of that out.

Aiming to bring in the elite talent is the right strategy. Hopefully Liddle is at least on the same page when it comes to targets and is only reviewing how to improve the strike rate.

 

[thylacine60]

And she will never forgive him for this

View attachment 768606

man shuts down woman - social commentators race to seek precedent.....

 

[teagueyubeauty]

All Barass said was might be on to something. Might does not suggest is.
SOS might have been upset with the GC (AFL) stance on Martin and said Im done with this. in the heat of the moment.
WHO knows????

Until it happens. Why worry about it?

Barass has moved back to normal transmission, dropping what I reckon he’s been asked to drop in a non dramatic fashion. That’s how he rolls normally

His titbit he dropped about Martin definitely being at the club was most most un Barass like, and again I believe he was asked to be extremely forthright to calm the masses...he won’t say it’s guaranteed unless it’s guaranteed, I’m not even contemplating Martin being anywhere else but at Carlton and so should everyone else!!

 

[Blue__Balls]

If Liddle has been critical of SOS for failing to get in such champions of our sport as Dan Butler, I can easily see how SOS would be contemplating leaving.

People keep assuming that, if we failed to get Papley/Martin and we didn't get anyone else, we lacked a plan B; this being despite the fact that there are a number of delisted players to choose from (Newnes, Roberton) and we still hold pick 9 and can split it to find more of what we want if necessary. Not all plans need come to fruition during the trade period.

Secondly, why would you aim at someone of middling to lower standard? Why not aim for top tier, and seek to improve your list across the board? There was a whole heap of good ordinary citizens traded this year, and criticising us for not participating in that is akin to asking a jeweler why they do not deal in concrete; it isn't their business, and isn't their goal.

That and people assume these "Plan B" players will just obediently wait until the last minute of the trade period in the hope that Carlton's Plan A will fall through so they can get a call-up.

Maybe we'd have been better off locking down Butler early "just in case", but I don't think you can approach the trade period with that mindset - trading in a lesser version of every preferred player just in case you can't get them. We had a chat with Butler early, we probably had him in the backs of our minds as an "option" if we got an early "No" on Papley, but St Kilda offered him a spot and he (fairly) took his chance there. Good luck to him, he's going to be behind 6 other small forwards on that list, just like he was at Richmond.

Betts in the bag.
Papley as the premium target.
DFA'a and Draft as a fallback.

That's a fair plan in my book for a very niche role in the team. We have smaller types, just not dedicated, specialist small forwards. We don't need 6 of those, 2-3 will do the job just fine, with at least one of those in the VFL at all times.

 

[ODNBlue]

Would buy if they had them in L/XL.

Here you are...

AFL Dog Large 57cm Jumper Carlton Blues | Dog Jumpers & Apparel - House

www.house.com.au

Unless your dog is a horse of course...

 

[Nori]

SOS would have more authority in the club than Lloyd, even though Lloyd is his boss.

That’s got to cause some friction.

SOS should take over as the footy director I reckon and Judd can move more into a commercial role on the board. That would address the conflict of interest and also retain a valuable asset.

 

[Arr0w]

Focus was too narrow

Pittonett essentially is an easy trade, plenty of those types floating around. I feel targeting Eddie, may have lost us a Butler/Gray type, either would of improved our side immediately. Newnes is clearly in the discussions. Not concerned that we targeted Martin, seems like we will still get him

Papley was fought with danger. Being reliant on other deals to get done is a poor strategy, especially given the narrow focus. I would have put a time limit on that deal and made my intentions clear.

While many of us differ on Wines, he would certainly improve us dramatically and I feel if we had placed a time limit on the Papley deal, we may have extracted him out of Port rather than closing that discussion before it had time to evolve

What I would have done is focused on players like Zac Williams who is a year out on FA. With GWS wanting to sure up Cameron and Whitfield next year, GWS might have been open to trading him. A guy that can play across any line. That chase may have even of forced out a Caldwell/Perryman/Briggs

So after the Cogs chase and miss, the players I would have targeted would have been

Williams/Yolman or Greenwood/Cutler/Martin/Gray or Taylor/Pittonett (or any other ruckman in that age range)

I think the strike rate would have been better and our squad would have improved considerably, as I am an advocate of improving that 22- 30 list range, given we have some immense talent that just needs time to develop

 

[teagueyubeauty]

At this stage of the rebuild I believe you improve the 22-30 positions on the list by bringing in top 18 talent and organically moving current top 18 talent out of the firsts, then they fight like tooth and nail to get back in.

We were hunting for top talent in trade period, not 22-30

Wines maybe was one, he’s in a long term contract like Papley so I feel he would have been no different outcome unless we paid way way overs. As it was, if Dodo accepted a deal Pap was ours. You win some, you lose some.

Butler, Cutler, Gray et al aren’t consistently top 18 talent imo

 

[LanceRomance]

It was a pretty shallow trade pool to be honest.

Wasn't much up for grabs.

 

[Stamos]

Focus was too narrow

Pittonett essentially is an easy trade, plenty of those types floating around. I feel targeting Eddie, may have lost us a Butler/Gray type, either would of improved our side immediately. Newnes is clearly in the discussions. Not concerned that we targeted Martin, seems like we will still get him

Papley was fought with danger. Being reliant on other deals to get done is a poor strategy, especially given the narrow focus. I would have put a time limit on that deal and made my intentions clear.

While many of us differ on Wines, he would certainly improve us dramatically and I feel if we had placed a time limit on the Papley deal, we may have extracted him out of Port rather than closing that discussion before it had time to evolve

What I would have done is focused on players like Zac Williams who is a year out on FA. With GWS wanting to sure up Cameron and Whitfield next year, GWS might have been open to trading him. A guy that can play across any line. That chase may have even of forced out a Caldwell/Perryman/Briggs

So after the Cogs chase and miss, the players I would have targeted would have been

Williams/Yolman or Greenwood/Cutler/Martin/Gray or Taylor/Pittonett (or any other ruckman in that age range)

I think the strike rate would have been better and our squad would have improved considerably, as I am an advocate of improving that 22- 30 list range, given we have some immense talent that just needs time to develop

I disagree with a lot of this.
Given our list, our focus should be narrow. That's why Coniglio and Papley were the right targets. It's really unfortunate that we couldn't get them.

Wines would have been hugely expensive, and isn't the best fit in the way that Cogs would be.

Williams would be fantastic, but next year is the year for him. No way the Giants let him go a year early when they are in flag contention.

As for the others, I am not at all fussed about saving salary, and scarce trade currency, for players that are really only going to be depth in the midfield. Rather get games into Dow/Fisher/Stocker/O'Brien.

 

[Arr0w]

I disagree with a lot of this.
Given our list, our focus should be narrow. That's why Coniglio and Papley were the right targets. It's really unfortunate that we couldn't get them.

Wines would have been hugely expensive, and isn't the best fit in the way that Cogs would be.

Williams would be fantastic, but next year is the year for him. No way the Giants let him go a year early when they are in flag contention.

As for the others, I am not at all fussed about saving salary, and scarce trade currency, for players that are really only going to be depth in the midfield. Rather get games into Dow/Fisher/Stocker/O'Brien.

IMHO, once we failed to attract Cogs, our focus was narrow and or reliant on other trades being done, especially regarding Papley

It has nothing to do with saving salary/currency, it is about building a sustainable list, a blend of talent at different age ranges/experience

Our list is blessed with emerging elite young talent, so as always you trade for needs. Those needs are durable, quickish players, sound foot skills in the 22-26 age range and while elite would be preferred it's not essential given our list

Your last point, is a contradiction I have seen many times of late. Put games into our youth, but we want Eddie. Somewhat staggering

I too prefer to put games into our youth, but let them fight for it, so adding the likes of CEY and Gray, would not hamper our developing youth, while improving our list

I understand you may not agree, but before you reply, consider a guy like Newman

 

[thylacine60]

All Barass said was might be on to something. Might does not suggest is.
SOS might have been upset with the GC (AFL) stance on Martin and said Im done with this. in the heat of the moment.
WHO knows????

Until it happens. Why worry about it?

try to remember where you are, bs...………….