The Clinton withdrawal - when will it occur?

[achancely]

Skipper kelly derives self-respect from sniping, Palmer.

 

[JW Frogen]

Interesting. Because you strike me as a scared little man with an appendage the size of a matchstick. Your aggressive outlook on life is, I suspect, an overcompensation for these inadequacies. Now, tell me, am I close? Be honest -- I am, aren't I?


.......

I have no idea what you're talking about, or what any of this has to do with Bob Dylan..

Jesus, do tell me you do not think Bob Dylan's place in musical history has more to do with his voice than his lyrics?

Do tell me you have some idea how much the 60s generation waved Dylan around like the next Plato, Machiavelli, or Frogen?


Funkle Weak Bean, that is like saying Britney Spears is not about cheap sex, she is about musical talent.


As to the subject of my glorious co_ck___a-can-do!!!!!. (I was in the Sea Bees for a time.)

Where shall we start?

And when will it end?


Oh the old Tricky Dick attack hey there Shakespeare?

You are a creative guy Palmer.

I imagine this one was invented with fire.

I am the wrong guy to use it against cry-baby-candle-I-weep-for-the-world-and I care so-bery-burry-buuuuuuury much, and you do not care so bery-burrry much-boy, as the glory that is my penis is well documented throughout ports far and wide, and had such power it literally brought down the entire ABC Political Animal forum. (This is not a joke.)

Do not tempt me, or I will regale this forum with tales of my talented penis and it’s adventures for years to come, and I do mean years to come.

My penis and I have a “special relationship”, (more so than the UK and US) I do the thinking; it does pretty much everything else, including much of the thinking.

Some times I just shut up and let it drive.

There is NOTHING I like talking about more than my penis.

Are you buying a ticket?

As to the politics, Iraq.

There currently is no Shia Sunni civil war (civil war being the total breakdown of civil authority), and this is solely due to US power. You know, the US power you would withdrawal and call peace. (So you have never heard of Bob Dylan, he has heard of you, he invented you.)

You see Palmer, here is a lesson you and Obama need to learn, leaving a power vacuum in a region is not a good idea, in particular when you are the occupying power.

Go figure?

A real civil war between Sunni and Shia would be totally Hobbisian, all out, with a collapse of the state. Given the progress of the surge, calling for the former at the expense of the latter can hardly be considered adult, or more importantly, moral foreign policy.

You can’t pretend your way out of Iraq Palmer. Real life does not offer that option, even if Obama does.


So things are tough? You and Obama can not do tough. Ok, we get it. It is not in you. You can lob some missiles into Pakistan and hope they hit, (as Clinton did every now and then, and then left it to Bush to do the heavy lifting) , but you can not support a democracy created in Iraq. (It is real, with a larger voter turn out than in most no mandatory voting nations, with people who risked their lives to vote there. Your dismissal of their courage is quite frankly sickening.)

As to McCain, well all politicians meet assorted rouges. This is the nature of life. (I tend to rouge rather than be rouged. Who is rougen who?)

Still, McCain did not sit out 20 years of sermons from a ranting anti American lunatic and only finally wake up the message when the message woke him up.

Obama is not some transcendent politician, his posing as one is his downfall, either as a candidate or President. The first lesson he needs to learn is he is just a man. (Should we get a Roman slave to whisper in his ear, “remember, you are only a man.”)

He is not reinventing politics, he is playing the old Kennedy I have no policy which makes me transcendent, and I am young, which makes me, well, you know, young, flim flam game.

He lacks gravity, which is why he will not detail what he will do.

Which is why, when he does attempt to detail what he will do, he makes a mockery out of reality, such as bombing Pakistan and leaving the most important democracy in the region, Iraq.

All to keep the polls neat and nice.

 

[Freo Big Fella]

You HAVE to write that book Frogen.

 

[Palmer Stoat]

I'm at work now, so I can't give this the response it deserves, but I would just like to congratulate you, JW.

Post. Of. The. ____ing. Year.

You are an utter fricking buffoon, have no idea about anything, and are probably only hanging on by your fingernails -- but when I read this, I laughed like a hyena.

 

[JW Frogen]

Post. Of. The. ____ing. Year.]

JW Frogen could not be here tonight, but accepting on his behalf is Winston Churchill and Brooke Shields.

You are an utter fricking buffoon, have no idea about anything, and are probably only hanging on by your fingernails -- but when I read this, I laughed like a hyena.

The Hyena is a good choice there Palmer. I too think of this as a metaphor for both the cowardly pact mentality and scavanger-like opportunism of your foriegn policy.

 

[JW Frogen]

Cheer up, Frogen. George and Dick will get all the above pretty much sorted if the Big O looks like getting his hands on the wheel. No worries.

We just need to tell George to stay well clear when Dick takes the shot at the 'one "we" have been waiting for.'

Dick's aim is a bit, well.....you know.

 

[Palmer Stoat]

As to the politics, Iraq.

There currently is no Shia Sunni civil war (civil war being the total breakdown of civil authority), and this is solely due to US power. You know, the US power you would withdrawal and call peace. (So you have never heard of Bob Dylan, he has heard of you, he invented you.)

There are two civil wars being fought in Iraq. There's an internal war among the Shia, with al-Sadr the leading figure, and there's a war being fought in Baghdad between the Sunni and Shia. That's why there are there are shitloads of Sunni refugees in Syria. (And there's also a conflict bubbling away between the Kurds and the Turks.)

And you are kidding yourself if you think there's civil authority in Iraq. Instead there are a bunch of armed camps involved in one turf war or another -- the Iraqi Govt at this point is a farce.

Way back in January 2007, the US Govt's own National Intelligence Estimate conceded that the civil war was an accurate description:

The Intelligence Community judges that the term “civil war” does not adequately capture the complexity of the conflict in Iraq, which includes extensive Shia-on-Shia violence, al-Qa’ida and Sunni insurgent attacks on Coalition forces, and widespread criminally motivated violence. Nonetheless, the term “civil war” accurately describes key elements of the Iraqi conflict, including the hardening of ethno-sectarian identities, a sea change in the character of the violence, ethno-sectarian mobilization, and population displacements

You see Palmer, here is a lesson you and Obama need to learn, leaving a power vacuum in a region is not a good idea, in particular when you are the occupying power.

Which might be a relevant observation if there wasn't already a civil war taking place, as the NIE conceded 18 months ago. A civil war that the US is powerless to stop.

A real civil war between Sunni and Shia would be totally Hobbisian, all out, with a collapse of the state. Given the progress of the surge, calling for the former at the expense of the latter can hardly be considered adult, or more importantly, moral foreign policy.

You start out from a misguided premise -- there is no civil war -- and stray further into fantasy from there. I'll say it again: there is a civil war, and the Iraqi 'state' isn't really a state -- not by any definition that I recognise, anyway.

You can’t pretend your way out of Iraq Palmer. Real life does not offer that option, even if Obama does.

So things are tough? You and Obama can not do tough. Ok, we get it. It is not in you.

You make some halfway sensible points, then just veer off into hardboiled, Chandleresque nonsense. Drop the pose, man. You're not Bogart, and this isn't some kinda film noir where you prop your elbow on the bar, gaze into the middle distance, and impress the dames with gibberish about 'pretending' and being 'tough'.

You can lob some missiles into Pakistan and hope they hit, (as Clinton did every now and then, and then left it to Bush to do the heavy lifting) , but you can not support a democracy created in Iraq. (It is real, with a larger voter turn out than in most no mandatory voting nations, with people who risked their lives to vote there. Your dismissal of their courage is quite frankly sickening.)

Your foreign policy views are so fricking far right that you've left the Earth's atmosphere completely.

There is nothing resembling democracy in Iraq. There's an occupation, and there are at least three different turf wars. Turn on the TV any day of the week and there are car bombs going off, people getting slaughtered, and refugees trying to get out any way they can. That is not a functioning state, or a functioning democracy for that matter. You're painting a picture that exists only in your own overheated little mind.

How long ago did that vote of yours take place? And what's happened since? Yep, that's right, the entire country has gone to hell in a handbasket.

What's more, what 'heavy lifting' has George Bush ever done? The man is an imbecile -- he's close to the least popular US president in history. And much of that is because he waged a war that never should have been waged and meanwhile neglected a war that was actually justified (Afghanistan). He has not made the US more safe, and his moronic blundering has had the effect not of defeating terrorist organisations but of galvanising them.

As to McCain, well all politicians meet assorted rouges. This is the nature of life. (I tend to rouge rather than be rouged. Who is rougen who?)

Still, McCain did not sit out 20 years of sermons from a ranting anti American lunatic and only finally wake up the message when the message woke him up.

Jeremiah Wright served the US in both the army and the navy, and he's spent the better part of his adult life helping the disadvantaged. Is he boiling with resentment? Probably. Does he hold some nutbag views? Yes. Is he anti-American? Of course not. In fact, he's done more to protect the security of the country than most of the pissants criticising him.

The question voters have to ask themselves is whether or not they believe Obama shares Wright's views. Clearly he doesn't, and clearly that's the conclusion American voters have come to. Anything else is just low-rent guilt-by-association garbage. It's also a racist double standard. The GOP has been in cahoots with all sorts of religious right lunatics, who've said far more vile things than Jeremiah Wright, but apparently that's all right as long as your white (and Right).

And it is possible to criticise things about America, without being anti-American, you know. In fact, the most patriotic people are those prepared to stand up and criticise their country when it's merited, and when it's not popular to do so.

Obama is not some transcendent politician, his posing as one is his downfall, either as a candidate or President. The first lesson he needs to learn is he is just a man. (Should we get a Roman slave to whisper in his ear, “remember, you are only a man.”)

He is not reinventing politics, he is playing the old Kennedy I have no policy which makes me transcendent, and I am young, which makes me, well, you know, young, flim flam game.

He lacks gravity, which is why he will not detail what he will do.

Well, don't let reality intrude on the novel you're busily writing, will you? Obama is a politician, JW. I'm pretty sure he realises that. He's not the messiah; I'm pretty sure he realises that also. Just because it suits your purpose to describe him as PT Barnum, or whatever you have in mind, doesn't make it true.

 

[JW Frogen]

So Palmer, you really think you can type your way out of this?


Yes the Racist Rev Wright was a Marine.

Who would have thought? A racist black Marine! I am shocked! Shocked I tells ya.

I have never met a crazy Marine? Or a racist one.

A lot of Marines are insane lunatics.

I know, I served with them.

But crazy black racist Marines can not be either crazy or racist, because they are, well, eeeer ah, black, and crazy, and racist, but eeer aaah, they are black so not racist, and not crazy.

He declares the US invented AIDS to kill black people in an insane, mentally deranged sermon on the mental instiution, but this does not reflect on our lord and savior Obama?

Obama only sat in this lunatic sermon for 20 years, he ripped of his own biography from this racist, insane lunatic.

Hey, the guy risked his life for a country that gave him a better living doing nothing but ranting than any African country ever would, and then condemed his own meal ticket.

Welcome to the ingratitude of the Left.


But Palmer, if you type it, it must be true. Iraq is now in a civil war, despite the Iraqi government saying it is not, despite it not being in one (for anyone, like me who has been in one.) But hey Palmer, you want Obama to win, so let Iraq really go into a civil war by saying it is in one now.

And you will send Iraq into one, and call it peace, simply to get Obama peace.

And when it really is in one, what will you call it?

I know, peace.

And you think Obama knows he is a real politician?

Despite his "I have trancended reality rhetoric".

I do not need to detail, you must have FAITH!

Do I hear an AMEN!

That is not a question with Obama, you either do, or you are not one he has been waiting for, to wait for him. Don't you know Palmer, you have been waiting for him?



You want to tell him that, because every time he gets attacked, you know, like a real politician he cries like Opera chanting a Mya Angelo poem about how this is so very, very, very unfair!

Imagine this wall flower of PC feel good, feel good politics dealing with the hard men of Iran, China, North Korea, Syria (the list goes on)!

____, they must be wetting their chops at the prospect of Obama and this Leftist feel good religious fantasy for four years.

Like Carter, four years will all it will be, all the free world can stand.

Or the free world will no longer be standing.

 

[Contra Mundum]

So Palmer, you really think you can type your way out of this?


Yes the Racist Rev Wright was a Marine.

Who would have thought? A racist black Marine! I am shocked! Shocked I tells ya.

I have never met a crazy Marine? Or a racist one.

A lot of Marines are insane lunatics.

I know, I served with them.

But crazy black racist Marines can not be either crazy or racist, because they are, well, eeeer ah, black, and crazy, and racist, but eeer aaah, they are black so not racist, and not crazy.

He declares the US invented AIDS to kill black people in an insane, mentally deranged sermon on the mental instiution, but this does not reflect on our lord and savior Obama?

Obama only sat in this lunatic sermon for 20 years, he ripped of his own biography from this racist, insane lunatic.

Hey, the guy risked his life for a country that gave him a better living doing nothing but ranting than any African country ever would, and then condemed his own meal ticket.

Welcome to the ingratitude of the Left.


But Palmer, if you type it, it must be true. Iraq is now in a civil war, despite the Iraqi government saying it is not, despite it not being in one (for anyone, like me who has been in one.) But hey Palmer, you want Obama to win, so let Iraq really go into a civil war by saying it is in one now.

And you will send Iraq into one, and call it peace, simply to get Obama peace.

And when it really is in one, what will you call it?

I know, peace.

And you think Obama knows he is a real politician?

Despite his "I have trancended reality rhetoric".

I do not need to detail, you must have FAITH!

Do I hear an AMEN!

That is not a question with Obama, you either do, or you are not one he has been waiting for, to wait for him. Don't you know Palmer, you have been waiting for him?



You want to tell him that, because every time he gets attacked, you know, like a real politician he cries like Opera chanting a Mya Angelo poem about how this is so very, very, very unfair!

Imagine this wall flower of PC feel good, feel good politics dealing with the hard men of Iran, China, North Korea, Syria (the list goes on)!

____, they must be wetting their chops at the prospect of Obama and this Leftist feel good religious fantasy for four years.

Like Carter, four years will all it will be, all the free world can stand.

Or the free world will no longer be standing.

Pfft you "served with them" we want verification - give us your Unit. Your posts are very amusing

 

[GuruJane]

We just need to tell George to stay well clear when Dick takes the shot at the 'one "we" have been waiting for.'

Dick's aim is a bit, well.....you know.

Unlike yours I gather?

 

[GuruJane]

Pfft you "served with them" we want verification - give us your Unit. Your posts are very amusing

Frogen reminds me very much of these crazed, pensioned off Vietnam vets I used to drink with regularly at Marco's Bar in Torremolinos, 1980.

 

[Contra Mundum]

Frogen reminds me very much of these crazed, pensioned off Vietnam vets I used to drink with regularly at Marco's Bar in Torremolinos, 1980.

He is too monomaniacally himself to be him - he is a virtual person

 

[JW Frogen]

Frogen reminds me very much of these crazed, pensioned off Vietnam vets I used to drink with regularly at Marco's Bar in Torremolinos, 1980.

Some what, except we won the wars I was in.

No John Kerry wish I had not been a war criminal candle-lite caring here.

I love the smell of victory and Wild Turkey in morning.

 

[Red Karl]

I love the way Palmer totally destroys his arguments, it is pretty to watch

 

[Contra Mundum]

Some what, except we won the war I was in.

No John Kerry wish I had not been a war criminal candle-lite caring here.

I love the smell of victory and Wild Turkey in morning.

Oh God - come on your method acting is getting like Al Pacino in a bad film

 

[JW Frogen]

Pfft you "served with them" we want verification - give us your Unit. Your posts are very amusing

I said "with" them, not in them.

My ASVAB scores were too high for the Marines, and I walk totally upright.

Even when drunk. (Though there is a flair of Jean Kelly in me after a nine or ten cans of Wild Turkey. Which is being obcenely taxed by the Australian Fascist Moral government.)

I served in the Navy, for over a decade, and in two Sea Bee Naval Mobile Construction Combat units.

"We build, we fight."

Some times we fight Marines.

Anyhoo, Sea Bees often train with and fight with Marines. (Some one has to keep them on a leash and make sure they are de-flead, have food and water.)

But these sort of forum bios are pointless as any forum habituate has the tendency to believe what they want to believe and not what they, well not want to.

If I hang around, I am sure I will be much amused by this phenomenon.

 

[MightyFighting]

Which Froggen is your favourite...


Librarian Froggen

or

Killbot Froggen

?

 

[Contra Mundum]

Recent Photo of Frogen after he has swapped uniforms with the Marines "with" whom he served

 

[Z_K]

Which Froggen is your favourite...


Librarian Froggen

or

Killbot Froggen

?

Killbot. Definately.

He builds and fights!!!

 

[JW Frogen]

Now to the serious stuff,

Iraq.

Palmer you claim they are in Civil War now, your evidence an old pre-surge intelligence estimate by the very same people who claimed Iraq had WMD.

I am convinced!

Having seen real civil war in Bosnia, Iraq is not in one, for that requires the total breakdown of civil authority and all out war in the country, the struggling multi ethnic democracy controls most of the territory, and the ethnic groups are currently not in all out war. I know you need to spin a narrative of despair and defeat (this has been a Leftist Democratic tradition since Vietnam) for domestic political consumption, but it is simply not the case in Iraq. (The complete moral vacuum of the Left concerning Iraq is perhaps the most grotesque thing to behold, one that had all moral Lefests such as Nick Cohen or Christopher Hitchens fleeing that cauldron of cowardice.)

Your cure for the Civil War you claim is occurring now, run for you lives, betray a democracy most Iraqis risked their lives to vote in, then call it peace. (I am not sure you are dumb enough to believe it, many on the Left are, infact so dumb parrots fall from trees when they protest, or if you like Obama are really a nihilst, more concerned with domestic political fights than Iraq or the Iraqi people.)

The progress in Iraq since the surge is well documented, anyone who really cares can learn about it, but that would mean being a little more interested in Iraq and it's people than you are your own primative, tribal-domestic political loyalties.

Like much of the Left you are so invested in defeat in Iraq for domestic political purposes you hardly notice what is going on there since the surge.

Since the Anbar Wakening the Sunni insurgency has largely collapsed, and most Sunni have turned on the brutal Al Qaeda. Nor are the Sunni really taking on the largely Shia dominated national government. Indeed, most of the recent fighting has been between that Shia dominated national government and Shia militias, most notably Sadr.

Now, I know Obama is the new Kennedy, except he will bare no burden, fight no foe, and stick by no friend, but he will lob a missile or two into the Pakistani hills and take a trip to Tehran to be cuddled by the Mullahs, (I am sure if he brings Opera with him they can all have a moment of love and then jot it down in their gratitude journals.)

So we know why you would leave the most important country in the region, one on the Sunni Shia fault line, one with oil, a democracy the entire Islamic world is watching, a democracy created by the US, because it is easy.

And you and Obama can do easy.

Unfortunately, real leadership is often hard, it is not about stirring rhetoric that means little or nothing other than a mention on Opera’s book club, it is hard. Tough choices must be made.

And like in Korea (a war that was going far worse than this one ever has, one with infinitely greater cost in life) the solution was not to run, damage US credibility and leave a power vacuum, a real civil war between the ethnic groups (and you will see what a real civil war is if Obama does flee, the betrayal of the Kurds in this absurd and immoral policy would perhaps be the worse part), the solution is the same solution that wins every war for a superior and determined power, perseverance and changing tactics with the changing foe.

As to racist Rev Wright, Obama said what he said; you can spin it any way you like.

He sat through 20 years and did not notice a thing (perhaps the same dull method he uses not notice the improvement in Iraq) and then in the most important speech of his candidacy says he can not abandon the Rev, only to do just that a few weeks latter.

It would seem in matters of friendship and spiritual guidance Obama uses the same amount of metal and courage he would in Iraq.

Truman wept.


As to NAFTA, I am not on the right on NAFTA (indeed my position in Iraq would be the old Roosevelt Truman Left, until the Left traded in democratic principal and courage for moral relativity and political convience.)

I do not believe in free trade.

The nations succeeding most in the global economy do not practice it, China, South Korea, ect.

China for instance does not float her currency, to keep it devalued and exports cheap, has state subsidies for an entire host of industries, and state control of the banking system.

Indeed every economic power that has risen in the world did so by managed trade, seeking free markets where they have advantage and protecting their own markets where weak.

The US abandonment for this principal of ideological love of theoretical free trade has seen her trade deficits sky-rocket and her economic supremacy decline.

I believe in doing what works.

And some times doing what works is hard.

As in Iraq, where you believe in doing what is easy, and what will kill the most amount of Iraqis in the most convenient way for you and Obama’s domestic political convenience.

Even Kennedy found a backbone, (though a cracked one), but I see no evidence Obama ever will.

 

[JW Frogen]

He builds and fights!!!

Where as you "sit and eat."

 

[Contra Mundum]

Col. j.W Frogen (The Green Berets):
"Out here, due process is a bullet."

 

[JW Frogen]

Col. j.W Frogen (The Green Berets):
"Out here, due process is a bullet." [/FONT]

Napalm was the Supream Court.

 

[GuruJane]

Now to the serious stuff,

Iraq.

Palmer you claim they are in Civil War now, your evidence an old pre-surge intelligence estimate by the very same people who claimed Iraq had WMD.

I am convinced!

Having seen real civil war in Bosnia, Iraq is not in one, for that requires the total breakdown of civil authority and all out war in the country, the struggling multi ethnic democracy controls most of the territory, and the ethnic groups are currently not in all out war. I know you need to spin a narrative of despair and defeat (this has been a Leftist Democratic tradition since Vietnam) for domestic political consumption, but it is simply not the case in Iraq. (The complete moral vacuum of the Left concerning Iraq is perhaps the most grotesque thing to behold, one that had all moral Lefests such as Nick Cohen or Christopher Hitchens fleeing that cauldron of cowardice.)

Your cure for the Civil War you claim is occurring now, run for you lives, betray a democracy most Iraqis risked their lives to vote in, then call it peace. (I am not sure you are dumb enough to believe it, many on the Left are, infact so dumb parrots fall from trees when they protest, or if you like Obama are really a nihilst, more concerned with domestic political fights than Iraq or the Iraqi people.)

The progress in Iraq since the surge is well documented, anyone who really cares can learn about it, but that would mean being a little more interested in Iraq and it's people than you are your own primative, tribal-domestic political loyalties.

Like much of the Left you are so invested in defeat in Iraq for domestic political purposes you hardly notice what is going on there since the surge.

Since the Anbar Wakening the Sunni insurgency has largely collapsed, and most Sunni have turned on the brutal Al Qaeda. Nor are the Sunni really taking on the largely Shia dominated national government. Indeed, most of the recent fighting has been between that Shia dominated national government and Shia militias, most notably Sadr.

Now, I know Obama is the new Kennedy, except he will bare no burden, fight no foe, and stick by no friend, but he will lob a missile or two into the Pakistani hills and take a trip to Tehran to be cuddled by the Mullahs, (I am sure if he brings Opera with him they can all have a moment of love and then jot it down in their gratitude journals.)

So we know why you would leave the most important country in the region, one on the Sunni Shia fault line, one with oil, a democracy the entire Islamic world is watching, a democracy created by the US, because it is easy.

And you and Obama can do easy.

Unfortunately, real leadership is often hard, it is not about stirring rhetoric that means little or nothing other than a mention on Opera’s book club, it is hard. Tough choices must be made.

And like in Korea (a war that was going far worse than this one ever has, one with infinitely greater cost in life) the solution was not to run, damage US credibility and leave a power vacuum, a real civil war between the ethnic groups (and you will see what a real civil war is if Obama does flee, the betrayal of the Kurds in this absurd and immoral policy would perhaps be the worse part), the solution is the same solution that wins every war for a superior and determined power, perseverance and changing tactics with the changing foe.

As to racist Rev Wright, Obama said what he said; you can spin it any way you like.

He sat through 20 years and did not notice a thing (perhaps the same dull method he uses not notice the improvement in Iraq) and then in the most important speech of his candidacy says he can not abandon the Rev, only to do just that a few weeks latter.

It would seem in matters of friendship and spiritual guidance Obama uses the same amount of metal and courage he would in Iraq.

Truman wept.

Pearls cast before swine, Froge.

 

[Contra Mundum]

A GuruJane has got to know her ideological limitations and also understand the difference between fact and myth in American Foreign Policy.