Religion The God Question - part 2

[The Unforgiven]

Dude I ain't going "troppo"... you must not know me very well. Your loss there. I am all over it broseph.

I don't know you that well and that's probably a good thing because right now you come across as an insufferable flog. But you're right, since I don't know you perhaps you'll grow on me.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I'm very familiar with Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Greek, Roman and Hebrew mythology.

Then start applying it.

 

[The Unforgiven]

Mate I am not opinionated as regards others interpretations, you've said that without evidence. I've got NFI how to read it.

But you are opinionated on how we should interpret the Bible. Basically anything we call into question reverts back to the old chestnut of "context". Everything explainable is literal, everything not so is metaphor. It's a boring and ridiculous rhetoric which you and your brethren cling to.

 

[The Unforgiven]

That's gold!

 

[The Unforgiven]

Then start applying it.

Start believing it to be true is what you're really angling towards.

 

[Roylion]

I believe he is speaking about the recorded one, in at least 3 disparate historical accounts.....You know: The one you weren't present for.

Could you provide some more details of this "recorded one in at least 3 disparate historical accounts"?

 

[evo]

You don't see anything worthy? Then you're stuffed in the head mate. "Do unto others" is the most worthy message ever written.

Get some ******* manners you pleb.

A version of the Golden Rule is in every religion and most philosophies. And most of many them centuries before Jeebus showed up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

Even my man Aesop had a story that teaches it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lion_and_the_Mouse

 

[Roylion]

Then start applying it.

Holistically? Perhaps you could show me the way. You're apparently the expert in this subject.

 

[Duritz]

I don't know you that well and that's probably a good thing because right now you come across as an insufferable flog. But you're right, since I don't know you perhaps you'll grow on me.

I come across as a flog, yet it's you who is resorting to personal attacks

 

[Procrastinator35]

Could you provide some more details of this "recorded one in at least 3 disparate historical accounts"?

Christ.....You want me to go google searching this time of night?

Holistically? Perhaps you could show me the way. You're apparently the expert in this subject.

I've already given you some pointers....Read back aways & join the dots.

 

[Boston tiger]

And which great flood was that?

You know, the one you said was in the archaeological record.

I'm pretty sure I saw something on TV that said in some floods around Mesopotamia back in the day that survivors would have only seen water for 300 odd kms. Anyway the point is did some clever guy rekon the Euphrates and the other river were going to flood and he built a whacking big boat. The size of the flood aint that important. No boat .. no flood story. Not a stretch either that someone built a whacking big boat or at least biggish boat.
I can we see how we can go from completely made up story to maybe a bit of truth here.

 

[skilts]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

If 'the word' was in the beginning, who wrote or spoke 'the word'? Does this mean there was a time when god didn't exist, before 'the word' provided its alleged beginning? Where, exactly, geographically, was god when this word was with him. Where would the contemporaneous record be found of 'the word' preceding the existence of this particular god?

What a piece of shit that book is as an historical record. The first paragraph is a farrago of invention, and it goes downhill from there. As a fantastic novel though, it has rarely been surpassed.

 

[Roylion]

Christ.....You want me to go google searching this time of night?

Oh, I thought you just knew. So did you just make it up off the top of your head about those "3 disparate historical accounts"? Or are there actually at least 3 disparate historical accounts?

I've already given you some pointers....Read back aways & join the dots.

My knowledge of ancient mythology is clearly nowhere near the level of your expertise. I need to be guided to the light.... shown the errors of my ways, by you the master. In the interests of bettering myself I look forward to reading your detailed explanation and asking a few questions.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Holistically? Perhaps you could show me the way. You're apparently the expert in this subject.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth

Best I can do at the minute....There is major debate over both the OT & Babylonian accounts deriving from a previous source.

 

[The Unforgiven]

I come across as a flog, yet it's you who is resorting to personal attacks

I wasn't attacking you. I made an observation. Tone down your abrasive and condescending manner just a tad and you'll come across as different.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Oh, I thought you just knew. So did you just make it up off the top of your head about those "3 disparate historical accounts"? Or are there actually at least 3 disparate historical accounts?

My knowledge of ancient mythology is clearly nowhere near the level of your expertise. I need to be guided to the light.... shown the errors of my ways, by you the master. In the interests of bettering myself I look forward to reading your detailed explanation and asking a few questions.

Sarcasm now?....See above sweet-pea.

 

[Roylion]

Anyway the point is did some clever guy rekon the Euphrates and the other river were going to flood and he built a whacking big boat. Not a stretch either that someone built a whacking big boat or at least biggish boat.
I can we see how we can go from completely made up story to maybe a bit of truth here.

Maybe a bit of truth?

What evidence have we got that someone (e.g. Gilgamesh?) actually built a "big boat" to survive a large flood? Boats existed. Is this evidence? Floods happened. Is this evidence? People sailed boats on rivers in flood. Is this evidence? There's a written story. Did someone build a largish boat to sail on a local flood, possibly to save himself and his family and maybe some of his animals actually happen? Reason and logic would say its not impossible. Perhaps even plausible. Did it happen as described in Genesis? The same reason and logic backed with a lack of empirical evidence would say not.

 

[Roylion]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth

Best I can do at the minute....There is major debate over both the OT & Babylonian accounts deriving from a previous source.

Yes I'm aware of that. I have quite a few books on Mesopotamian history, literature and culture. A couple of them deal with the flood myth sources.

For example.

The oldest Mesopotamian flood story of Atrahasis appears to have been written sometime between 1800 BC and 1700 BC (which was adapted by the writers of the later Epic of Gilgamesh, written between 1300-1000 BC) concerns a river flood, most likely the Euphrates.

Atrahasis III iv, lines 6–7: says "Like dragonflies they have filled the river." was altered / embellished in Gilgamesh XI line 123 to: "Like the spawn of fishes, they fill the sea."

 

[Procrastinator35]

Maybe a bit of truth?

What evidence have we got that someone (e.g. Gilgamesh?) actually built a "big boat" to survive a large flood? Boats existed. Is this evidence? Floods happened. Is this evidence? People sailed boats on rivers in flood. Is this evidence? There's a written story. Did someone build a largish boat to sail on a local flood, possibly to save himself and his family and maybe some of his animals actually happen? Reason and logic would say its not impossible. Perhaps even plausible. Did it happen as described in Genesis? The same reason and logic backed with a lack of empirical evidence would say not.

I doubt anyone with an ounce of common sense would claim the Biblical account as literally true.

Good post however

 

[evo]

If 'the word' was in the beginning, who wrote or spoke 'the word'? Does this mean there was a time when god didn't exist, before 'the word' provided its alleged beginning? Where, exactly, geographically, was god when this word was with him. Where would the contemporaneous record be found of 'the word' preceding the existence of this particular god?

What a piece of shit that book is as an historical record. The first paragraph is a farrago of invention, and it goes downhill from there. As a fantastic novel though, it has rarely been surpassed.

John was the "the Disciple that Jesus loved" and as we all know, Jesus was a notorious fisher of men.

But to be fair to Jesus if you'd been roaming the desert with a bunch of guys for ages John might start to look like a bit of alright.

 

[Boston tiger]

If 'the word' was in the beginning, who wrote or spoke 'the word'? Does this mean there was a time when god didn't exist, before 'the word' provided its alleged beginning? Where, exactly, geographically, was god when this word was with him. Where would the contemporaneous record be found of 'the word' preceding the existence of this particular god?

What a piece of shit that book is as an historical record. The first paragraph is a farrago of invention, and it goes downhill from there. As a fantastic novel though, it has rarely been surpassed.

I was alluding to the concept we won't be able to understand or explain God because we don't have the language. Then interesting that John used the term " word " and God. Anyway it was only John.

 

[chelseacarlton]

I know what you are saying but I think your nothing and my nothing is different. Empty space v nothing.
Still granted very interesting stuff but the more amazing the more I think eff the accident theory.

What if there are multiple nothings or infinite nothings that all mean nothing because it just is because it just is?!
Life isn't an accident,life will arise given an almost infinite universe.
Take the magic away and shit just happens,we don't need a brutal or caring creator.
"Shit Happens"

 

[Boston tiger]

I wasn't attacking you. I made an observation. Tone down your abrasive and condescending manner just a tad and you'll come across as different.

Really ? Has the penny dropped yet. Can you see a common denominator in all this.?

 

[Procrastinator35]

I was alluding to the concept we won't be able to understand or explain God because we don't have the language. Then interesting that John used the term " word " and God. Anyway it was only John.

Logos
ˈlɒɡɒs/
noun
noun: Logos

1. 1.
   Theology
   the Word of God, or principle of divine reason and creative order, identified in the Gospel of John with the second person of the Trinity incarnate in Jesus Christ.
2. 2.
   (in Jungian psychology) the principle of reason and judgement, associated with the animus.

 

[skilts]

I was alluding to the concept we won't be able to understand or explain God because we don't have the language. Then interesting that John used the term " word " and God. Anyway it was only John.

The difficulty with this is that the text says, "In the beginning was the word". This would indicate that until this point, god didn't have 'the word' either. It would further indicate that if god didn't have 'the word', then he couldn't have had the language, given that language is composed of words. It is not us who don't have the language, but rather, god who did not have it, and still doesn't.