Religion The God Question - part 2

[Procrastinator35]

interesting question, if time doesn't exist how do we explain- decomposition, ageing, erosion, the seasons, cause and effect?

the fact is we perceive time so it exists for us. it's the old tree falling in the forest argument ie. observer effect.

Time is a measurement of motion....Nothing more, nothing less....Which includes change & all-it's subsets you've mentioned.

The mortal nature of life & it's limited span, in contradistinction to our conceptions of eternity; inform one of the principal arguments for our divinity.

That we are able to step outside of our own mortal nature (metaphorically) & see beyond it......Which can also, of course, be seen as a curse.. As the ancient Greeks would have it.

 

[evo]

Time is a measurement of motion....Nothing more, nothing less....Which includes change & all-it's subsets you've mentioned.

good to see we agree on something.

The mortal nature of life & it's limited span, in contradistinction to our conceptions of eternity; inform one of the principal arguments for our divinity.

Talk about a non-sequitar. How does it point to divinity

I suspect Jungian influences again.

 

[The Unforgiven]

My follow up question would be more " Hasn't the table already been set and atheism just sits amongst a set table...just as science does.

Don't talk about proactive terms or ignorant terms .You told me to read an essay where it said exactly what I was saying about accident eg no planning no purpose. Go read that essay and take it up with that guy. After all your tough talk about making people question God your getting all defensive about Atheism .

I don't give a crap what you think but I think I am talking in turn regarding atheism if your not atheists don't reply.
Maybe someone else can give an essay to read that doesn't completely agree with my view.

Perhaps you are a panthiest ?

It's mind blowing how much seems to go straight over your head. What if I told you that your Bible completely agrees with my view? My view is that it's full of shit and your god is a psychotic maniac? It's all in your book, go and read it. You'd then say I don't know how to read it and take it out of context. If the only thing you ever see is the one which fits into your agenda, then you'll see it only thay way.

I sit in a position of seeing things from a perspective of logic and reason. You sit in a position of seeing things from a perspective of superstition and belief. I can provide you with a dossier of evidence which contradicts the arguments which the superstitious beleifs are founded upon, but unless you're willing to open your mind to the possibilities of them, you won't see any logic in them.

I broke free from the teachings of religion; did you "discover" christianity's teachings on your own merits after you reached the age of reason, or were you told "this is how it is and has been from day one"? There's a critical difference in the way the two of us think if your answer to my question is the latter. And it gets back to a "stupid" question I asked earlier; if not for that fact that you were born in a western country, would Islam be your religion if you were born in the Middle East?

 

[Procrastinator35]

good to see we agree on something.

Talk about a non-sequitar. How does it point to divinity

I suspect Jungian influences again.

mortal nature + immortal conceptions....Nothing Jung or Nietzsche said, is an update on the ancient Greeks.

 

[Boston tiger]

It's mind blowing how much seems to go straight over your head. What if I told you that your Bible completely agrees with my view? My view is that it's full of shit and your god is a psychotic maniac? It's all in your book, go and read it. You'd then say I don't know how to read it and take it out of context. If the only thing you ever see is the one which fits into your agenda, then you'll see it only thay way.

I sit in a position of seeing things from a perspective of logic and reason. You sit in a position of seeing things from a perspective of superstition and belief. I can provide you with a dossier of evidence which contradicts the arguments which the superstitious beleifs are founded upon, but unless you're willing to open your mind to the possibilities of them, you won't see any logic in them.

I broke free from the teachings of religion; did you "discover" christianity's teachings on your own merits after you reached the age of reason, or were you told "this is how it is and has been from day one"? There's a critical difference in the way the two of us think if your answer to my question is the latter. And it gets back to a "stupid" question I asked earlier; if not for that fact that you were born in a western country, would Islam be your religion if you were born in the Middle East?

Oh dear best not talk about atheism. It was funny though when you gave me that essay to read.

 

[evo]

mortal nature + immortal conceptions....Nothing Jung or Nietzsche said, is an update on the ancient Greeks.

I have grave doubts you have understood Nietzsche at all.

He derided the belief in divinity as a result of the realisation of our mortality as intellectually weak and "otherworldy"

"My formula for human greatness is amor fati..."

 

[The Unforgiven]

Oh dear best not talk about atheism. It was funny though when you gave me that essay to read.

It's best that you don't. You actually think that Atheists beleive in the supernatural, sans a reason? Far out, dude. Next thing you'll try and suggest that Richmond has been a successful footy club in the last 35 years.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I have grave doubts you have understood Nietzsche at all.

He derided the belief in divinity as a result of the realization of our mortality as intellectually weak and "otherworldly"

"My formula for human greatness is amor fati..."

No....He derided the fully transcendent nature of the Christian God-head & the resultant life-negating influences stemming from it....With it's fixation on the hereafter.

The ancient Greek world is full of immanence, with as many cthonic deities as ethereal ones.

As for his 'amor fati'....Fully Greek Tragedy my friend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai

 

[Roylion]

I've consider everything to a point but I get stumped on atheism.

No belief in the supernatural, including that of 'gods' or 'god'. 'God' being defined as an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent supernatural deity outside the physical laws of time and space.

Whether there was / is a supernatural entity that exists outside of time and space we will never know. We have no evidence for supposing that there is.

As such, I see no reason to concern myself with the worship of said imaginary supernatural entity, by whatever name man invents to refer to that imaginary supernatural entity. Hence I am "without gods; godless; secular; denying or disdaining the gods, of no belief that supernatural deities exist."

 

[evo]

No....He derided the fully transcendent nature of the Christian God-head & the resultant life-negating influences stemming from it....With it's fixation on the hereafter.

What's the difference to what I said?

The ancient Greek world is full of immanence, with as many cthonic deities as ethereal ones.

As for his 'amor fati'....Fully Greek Tragedy my friend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai

Embrace your fate, mate - the universe doesn't care what you believe - you're not going to live forever.

 

[Procrastinator35]

1. What's the difference to what I said?

2. Embrace your fate, mate - the universe doesn't care what you believe - you're not going to live forever.

1. Read back....You said he derided the belief in divinity, as an all-encompassing, blanket-statement.

All of Nietzsche's critiques against God & the transcendent are made, with both eyes fully fixed upon Christianity & it's Platonic roots.

2. LOL...No doubt....Death & taxes & all that.

 

[Boston tiger]

No belief in the supernatural, including that of 'gods' or 'god'. 'God' being defined as an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent supernatural deity outside the physical laws of time and space.

Whether there was / is a supernatural entity that exists outside of time and space we will never know. We have no evidence for supposing that there is.

As such, I see no reason to concern myself with the worship of said imaginary supernatural entity, by whatever name man invents to refer to that imaginary supernatural entity. Hence I am "without gods; godless; secular; denying or disdaining the gods, of belief that supernatural deities exist."

I get all that but personally I struggle a little with the no evidence bit. I just can't see the natural existing without the supernatural.

I go with the I'm here I didn't get me here . Something greater than life got me here and I'm grateful to that power. I guess that is worship or just good manners.

 

[Roylion]

I get all that but personally I struggle a little with the no evidence bit. I just can't see the natural existing without the supernatural.

That's not evidence. That's opinion. Faith.

What evidence do you have for a supernatural deity outside time and space?

I go with the I'm here I didn't get me here . Something greater than life got me here and I'm grateful to that power.

Whereas I couldn't care less. I'm not going to worship anything I have no evidence of. I didn't exist in the billions of years before my conception. I won't exist after I die for the billions of years to come.

I guess that is worship or just good manners.

Why do you need to 'worship' anything? Who or what has determined that? An unknowable, supernatural deity outside time and space?

And if you feel you must, why would you allow other people, either now or in the past, determine what and by what method you should worship? What makes their world view, much less their knowledge of a supernatural deity outside time and space, superior to yours?

 

[M Malice]

Ageing, erosion etc are manifestations of cause and effect. Cause and effect is the way reality unfolds; it's a process. Time is the way we measure it unfolding.

That's a fair enough position and quite a nuanced understanding of ontology . If something appears to exist, then it does.

However I'm arguing you've mislabeled it - you haven't observed 'time', you observed cause and effect. A tree falling in a forest is an event; a result of cause and effect. Time wasn't the cause. It's just the way we measured it.

-Thus Spake Evo

Time is a measurement of motion....Nothing more, nothing less....Which includes change & all-it's subsets you've mentioned.

The mortal nature of life & it's limited span, in contradistinction to our conceptions of eternity; inform one of the principal arguments for our divinity.

That we are able to step outside of our own mortal nature (metaphorically) & see beyond it......Which can also, of course, be seen as a curse.. As the ancient Greeks would have it.

thanks for the replies evo, P35. this discussion is probably way too deep for me, i'll stick to my disbelief in an omnipresent, judgemental institutionalized religious deity which this thread is for and leave the time discussion for another time. ie. when somebody starts a thread about it.

i'll leave you with this link, some interesting thoughts on this site re the existence of time, some good flow on links as well.

https://www.quora.com/Where-can-I-find-the-best-argument-for-the-existence-of-time

 

[The Unforgiven]

I get all that but personally I struggle a little with the no evidence bit. I just can't see the natural existing without the supernatural.

I go with the I'm here I didn't get me here . Something greater than life got me here and I'm grateful to that power. I guess that is worship or just good manners.

HAHAHA! I just spat my coffee everywhere. Stop trolling, BT. You struggle with a lack of evidence, do you? Wow... I've heard it all now.

 

[Boston tiger]

That's not evidence. That's opinion. Faith.

What evidence do you have for a supernatural deity outside time and space?



Whereas I couldn't care less. I'm not going to worship anything I have no evidence of. I didn't exist in the billions of years before my conception. I won't exist after I die for the billions of years to come.



Why do you need to 'worship' anything? Who or what has determined that? An unknowable, supernatural deity outside time and space?

And if you feel you must, why would you allow other people, either now or in the past, determine what and by what method you should worship? What makes their world view, much less their knowledge of a supernatural deity outside time and space, superior to yours?

Damm I forget you were a multi quoter. I will keep it short.

The evidence of God is right in front of you some can see it some can't.

 

[skilts]

Damm I forget you were a multi quoter. I will keep it short.

The evidence of God is right in front of you some can see it some can't.

Which god?

 

[Bleeeeeeeeep]

The evidence of God is right in front of you some can see it some can't.

100% correct, i look in the mirror every day and see him.

 

[Boston tiger]

Which god?

Well there is only your God. There is no ones else's

 

[Pie eyed]

Damm I forget you were a multi quoter. I will keep it short.

The evidence of God is right in front of you some can see it some can't.

Hence no evidence at all.

 

[The Unforgiven]

I know in a society that is entirely secular, it's hard to believe anything exists beyond the physical realm. I've witnessed the manifestation of good and evil before I turned 18. You can call me whatever names that came to mind, I've probably heard them a hundred times over. All I can say is that if you are faithless, want nothing to do with religion, you won't have to worry about opposition in terms of the forces of darkness (spiritual). They know you are unlikely to find the truth due to your stubbornness to your beliefs or non-beliefs if you wish. There's no point of oppression to a person who willingly accepts their agenda.

Hence in secular countries where people openly renounce God and anything supernatural, you are less likely to find people who testify to these things. Even most Christians you meet will not have experienced the supernatural, they are more carnal (physically) minded. People in secular societies already do the work (knowingly or unknowingly) for these forces of darkness which past generations of my family have come to face.

That being said, those of you that follow global news and events will be aware of the push to form a one world government, religion, and currency. We became more accustomed to this after the event of 9/11, before that it was the "conspiracy theorists" and "bible thumpers" who were crazy for suggesting this agenda. This agenda that is being presented is now the physical manifestation of the plans for the forces of darkness. Their spiritual agenda is subservient devotion to only one being who I'm sure most of you will be familiar with as Lucifer or Satan.

Yes, you may suggest God is no different, however God is worshipped 24/7 by willing beings both in heaven and on earth, both human and spiritual beings. God won't force you to worship and obey Him and nor will I. Lucifer on the other hand, in his quest to be God will go at lengths to deceive many to worship him. The implementation of the one world order will be his last play. The world may seem calm to many especially in secular societies, but there is a war raging on in the heavens which will and is slowly making it's way into the physical world.

I've also see the Pope pop up in the discussion here. He is one of many pushing the forces of darkness agenda, calling for all religions to come as one for "peace and security". The practices that goes on behind closed doors at the Vatican is the main reason for the breakaway of Protestants and Evangelicals. Unfortunately, the forces of darkness have slowly infiltrated those as well to taint the truth and hide it from people. Prove of this is the way "Christians" behave today. I'm sure some of you atheists have lots of experiences in calling out the hypocritical behaviour by some of them.

In summary, the only chance you have of experiencing the world beyond the physical realm is one through the forces of good those obedient to a Creator like no other. However this chance diminishes really quickly once you dismiss the existence of God. Remember, you currently have no opposition in the forces of darkness because of your current stance and non-belief.

There's a board for conspiracy theories and the supernatural.

 

[Boston tiger]

Hence no evidence at all.

Well do the autism test for starters. If you score high you will struggle to see any evidence but if you score around the middle you should be fine. But don't despair we can get everyone to heaven.. it's our job as the spiritually gifted to get those with other gifts over the line.

 

[Procrastinator35]

100% correct, i look in the mirror every day and see him.

Narcissus is not a God in the classical sense, though has become one in today's culture....10/10 for articulation squire.

 

[Boston tiger]

I know in a society that is entirely secular, it's hard to believe anything exists beyond the physical realm. I've witnessed the manifestation of good and evil before I turned 18. You can call me whatever names that came to mind, I've probably heard them a hundred times over. All I can say is that if you are faithless, want nothing to do with religion, you won't have to worry about opposition in terms of the forces of darkness (spiritual). They know you are unlikely to find the truth due to your stubbornness to your beliefs or non-beliefs if you wish. There's no point of oppression to a person who willingly accepts their agenda.

Hence in secular countries where people openly renounce God and anything supernatural, you are less likely to find people who testify to these things. Even most Christians you meet will not have experienced the supernatural, they are more carnal (physically) minded. People in secular societies already do the work (knowingly or unknowingly) for these forces of darkness which past generations of my family have come to face.

That being said, those of you that follow global news and events will be aware of the push to form a one world government, religion, and currency. We became more accustomed to this after the event of 9/11, before that it was the "conspiracy theorists" and "bible thumpers" who were crazy for suggesting this agenda. This agenda that is being presented is now the physical manifestation of the plans for the forces of darkness. Their spiritual agenda is subservient devotion to only one being who I'm sure most of you will be familiar with as Lucifer or Satan.

Yes, you may suggest God is no different, however God is worshipped 24/7 by willing beings both in heaven and on earth, both human and spiritual beings. God won't force you to worship and obey Him and nor will I. Lucifer on the other hand, in his quest to be God will go at lengths to deceive many to worship him. The implementation of the one world order will be his last play. The world may seem calm to many especially in secular societies, but there is a war raging on in the heavens which will and is slowly making it's way into the physical world.

I've also see the Pope pop up in the discussion here. He is one of many pushing the forces of darkness agenda, calling for all religions to come as one for "peace and security". The practices that goes on behind closed doors at the Vatican is the main reason for the breakaway of Protestants and Evangelicals. Unfortunately, the forces of darkness have slowly infiltrated those as well to taint the truth and hide it from people. Prove of this is the way "Christians" behave today. I'm sure some of you atheists have lots of experiences in calling out the hypocritical behaviour by some of them.

In summary, the only chance you have of experiencing the world beyond the physical realm is one through the forces of good those obedient to a Creator like no other. However this chance diminishes really quickly once you dismiss the existence of God. Remember, you currently have no opposition in the forces of darkness because of your current stance and non-belief.

It's a throw back to the good old days but I like it

 

[Roylion]

The evidence of God is right in front of you some can see it some can't.

Like what?

Bring me to the light!