News The Greatest?

[kriso182]

IS IT possible to argue that this modern-day Geelong team is the greatest of all?

No team in the history of the AFL/VFL has been so dominant. Although Collingwood's 'Machine' team played in six consecutive Grand Finals and won a record-breaking four premierships in a row from 1927 to 1930, the Machine's best five-year window resulted in an 83.82 per cent winning average.

Yes, the difference is marginal, however, Collingwood played 23 fewer games during this period. Also, 21st century Geelong has been forced to contend with a salary cap and draft concessions designed to handicap powerhouses and strengthen the weak

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/125939/default.aspx

Worth a read.

 

[donbooger]

Its difficult to compare modern premierships to premierships from pre draft, pre salary cap, zone selection, poor tactics evolution eras as obviously dominance was easier to achieve before now.

As time goes on the accomplishments of Geelong without the advantage of a combined Brisbane/Fitzroy team will be appreciated more as teams fail to replicate it in the modern era.

 

[Vitruvian]

Its difficult to compare modern premierships to premierships from pre draft, pre salary cap, zone selection, poor tactics evolution eras as obviously dominance was easier to achieve before now.

As time goes on the accomplishments of Geelong without the advantage of a combined Brisbane/Fitzroy team will be appreciated more as teams fail to replicate it in the modern era.

In a nutshell you're spot on - It is practically impossible to compare sides from different eras, and the greater the difference in years between the eras determines the degree of difficulty.

Therefore, there can actually be two distinct questions:

1. What is the greatest side of all-time, if hypothetically sides from different eras could play against each other at the same time?

2. What is the greatest side of all-time, relative to their superiority over other sides in the era during which they played?



Some further points.....

- I believe that the modern day sides (say post late-1980's) are superior in most aspects to the sides of yesteryear (especially say pre-1960.)

- You can't even relatively compare professional athletes with amateurs.

- You can't judge exactly how the players from yesteryear would benefit from modern day physical and training techniques. Likewise; you can't judge how modern day players would perform without such advantages.

 

[catters05]

We need a B2B flag.

 

[witsend]

We need a B2B flag.

There's the driving force/motivation for 2012. Last box un-ticked...oh and a Coleman! Go for it Pods...

 

[jim boy]

1. What is the greatest side of all-time, if hypothetically sides from different eras could play against each other at the same time?

Footy seems to be improving at the rate of around 2% a year. If the current Richmond team time travelled 22 years back and played the Hawks, they would win by 20 goals, they would just run them off their feet and completely bamboozle them with tactics.

 

[Turbocat]

As great as I think we are , we a fair bit off Melbourne and Hawthorn.
The Collingwood needs closer examination as it was back when the final system was too different. Teams that finished on top could challenge if they lost...

If we had done what Grant Thomas said..win 5 in a row then no doubt but as its stands we have not even won a b2b flag.

 

[Hinkley29]

We need a B2B flag.

that is just an arbitrary measurement, and thus irrelevant.

 

[pessimiser]

that is just an arbitrary measurement, and thus irrelevant.

those are just meaningless words, we need back to back and then no doubt greatest team ever, no other way to prove or disprove, otherwise the hawks of 80's and 1991 is the greatest ever

 

[muttweed]

There's the driving force/motivation for 2012. Last box un-ticked...oh and a Coleman! Go for it Pods...

I was thinking Hawkins...

 

[Vdubs]

those are just meaningless words, we need back to back and then no doubt greatest team ever, no other way to prove or disprove, otherwise the hawks of 80's and 1991 is the greatest ever

Agree. Until we get BTB, we will not be GOAT. That is all that is missing, but how hard are they to achieve. Time will tell. What a way for Chappy and Scarlett/Wojo/Corey to go out.
And it will have to be done with a new 1st and 2nd ruck.

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

Footy seems to be improving at the rate of around 2% a year. If the current Richmond team time travelled 22 years back and played the Hawks, they would win by 20 goals, they would just run them off their feet and completely bamboozle them with tactics.

But that would be generalizing the science fiction blockbuster you saw today with the blockbuster that played 22 years ago wouldn't it?

It's like comparing Star Wars in 1977 to Lord of the Rings in 2001....I'd argue that the main result at the end of the day is to win a game of football no matter how ugly or uninspiring it may be and perhaps the players 22 years ago were not as toned nor as aerobically fit as the guys running around today but their tactics and dominance may have been a reason why the game had no choice but to evolve into the one we see today.

I reckon Hawthorn of the 1980's would still likely thump Richmond and most likely beat us as well if they played off today. One factor you can't ignore is putting the ball through the middle of the sticks and statistics have shown that they are worse today than in that era no matter how wonderful the build up was to get the scoring opportunity as Cat fans know all to well in the 2008 GF.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

Footy seems to be improving at the rate of around 2% a year. If the current Richmond team time travelled 22 years back and played the Hawks, they would win by 20 goals, they would just run them off their feet and completely bamboozle them with tactics.

Ive got to say that is the most ridiculous statement ever made . I went to the 89 grand final , and also went to the Princess Park game between Geelong and Hawthorn that year. Lets see Hawthorns goal to goal line was Langford Mew Tuck Brereton and Dunstall -throw in Buckenera Platten Dipperdemenico and the rest -and you say the current Richmond team would beat them by 20 goals -Unbelievable . Richmond are a disgrace -on one of their ordinary days (which they have had plenty of in the last 30 years) -i reckon a top WAFL Or Sanfl team would roll them.

Getting back to the topic -are we the greatest -3 flags in 5 years is a mighty effort-with an amazing win loss ratio . Im not hung up on back to back flags at all . The Crows won back to back flags but you would hardly call them great . If we win it again next year to make it 4 out of 6 -it would be very hard to argue that where not the Greatest

 

[pessimiser]

Ive got to say that is the most ridiculous statement ever made . I went to the 89 grand final , and also went to the Princess Park game between Geelong and Hawthorn that year. Lets see Hawthorns goal to goal line was Langford Mew Tuck Brereton and Dunstall -throw in Buckenera Platten Dipperdemenico and the rest -and you say the current Richmond team would beat them by 20 goals -Unbelievable . Richmond are a disgrace -on one of their ordinary days (which they have had plenty of in the last 30 years) -i reckon a top WAFL Or Sanfl team would roll them.

Getting back to the topic -are we the greatest -3 flags in 5 years is a mighty effort-with an amazing win loss ratio . Im not hung up on back to back flags at all . The Crows won back to back flags but you would hardly call them great . If we win it again next year to make it 4 out of 6 -it would be very hard to argue that where not the Greatest

the crows were excellent in 93/94, depth, talent,unpredictability and were great, just that we victorians hardly saw them. very underated..

 

[jim boy]

Ive got to say that is the most ridiculous statement ever made . I went to the 89 grand final , and also went to the Princess Park game between Geelong and Hawthorn that year. Lets see Hawthorns goal to goal line was Langford Mew Tuck Brereton and Dunstall -throw in Buckenera Platten Dipperdemenico and the rest -and you say the current Richmond team would beat them by 20 goals -Unbelievable . Richmond are a disgrace -on one of their ordinary days (which they have had plenty of in the last 30 years) -i reckon a top WAFL Or Sanfl team would roll them.

I think you missed the point - footy has moved on so much from those days that the game is unrecognisable.

But because I have nothing better to do I'll argue the point. Then players would play man-on-man contested footy without covering that much territory. The players were undoubtedly talented, far more so than the Tigers of today, but they were also semi-professionals, holding down day jobs and having maybe three training sessions a week. 89 Hawthorn would be kicking to contests continually and having to win them all. Today's Richmond only has to win the ball occasionally and then there superior sports science, fitness and tactics would kick in, the Hawthorn guys would simply not get near the ball, and if they put that big effort in, would almost certainly be physically buggered early in the match. They would end up looking like park footballers.

It's also easy to overstate how great the Hawks were, I rate them higher in the 'greatness stakes' than Geelong of today, so don't think I dont rate them. But for all their Grand Final appearances, they weren't that far ahead of the pack in any given season. We almost over-ran them in the 89 GF, and they dropped normally 3 or 4 games a season. You don't do that if you are so far ahead of everyone else.

 

[BotsMaster]

We need a B2B flag.

This. It would be made even better if we did it against the Hawfs

 

[Hinkley29]

those are just meaningless words, we need back to back and then no doubt greatest team ever, no other way to prove or disprove, otherwise the hawks of 80's and 1991 is the greatest ever

So for argument sake, let's say that we repeat the run we have just had, and win the flag in 2103, 2015, 2017. At that point we would have won 6 flags in 11 years all in the salary cap, draft, AFL era. Clearly the greatest team ever, but no back to back flags amongst them.

You can make up any arbitrary measurement you want to either credit or discredit your argument. Back to back flags is just another arbitrary measurement.

 

[SJ]

Ive got to say that is the most ridiculous statement ever made . I went to the 89 grand final , and also went to the Princess Park game between Geelong and Hawthorn that year. Lets see Hawthorns goal to goal line was Langford Mew Tuck Brereton and Dunstall -throw in Buckenera Platten Dipperdemenico and the rest -and you say the current Richmond team would beat them by 20 goals -Unbelievable . Richmond are a disgrace -on one of their ordinary days (which they have had plenty of in the last 30 years) -i reckon a top WAFL Or Sanfl team would roll them.

Getting back to the topic -are we the greatest -3 flags in 5 years is a mighty effort-with an amazing win loss ratio . Im not hung up on back to back flags at all . The Crows won back to back flags but you would hardly call them great . If we win it again next year to make it 4 out of 6 -it would be very hard to argue that where not the Greatest

Jim Boy is right. If you could put the 2011 Richmond team up against the 1989 Hawthorn team it would be the Tigers in a canter. Hawthorn would be run off its legs half way through the first quarter.

That is not a knock on the Hawthorn side, as it is was full of champions of the game, but a fact of life that shows how footy teams improve over time.

 

[Cat Tragic]

That is only yours and his opinion - it is not a fact. I would back the Hawks.
Amazingly powerful side with good skills. I too was at both those games in 89 and saw an awesome team.

I think the fitness aspect is overstated, as sides at that time were semi professional and used to complete heavy training programs. This is probably a bigger factor when considering sides from the 60's and 70's.

The other factor is that is now it is an 18 team comp and that there are players getting games now who wouldn't have got them in the past. And I think Richmond has got a few of them.
So with Dunstall, Platten, Dermie, Ayres, Langford, Buckanara,Dipper, etc I think they'd win.

 

[vinum coupe]

impossible to measure. But I agree that the fitness level AND game style would tear them a new one.

 

[JonoNash]

If you exposed the likes of Hawthorn in the 80's, Carlton of the late 70's & early 80's & Melbourne of the 50's to f/t training, better surfaces, facilities & development setups (Hawthorn had 1 assistant coach) they would adapt to any era.

As much as you say these sides didn't deal with interstate travel, more teams (having more teams is hard to guage as it can be argued that there are more poorer teams & talent dilution) & a salary cap (in the 50's country clubs actually had more money than a number of VFL clubs & many players were lost to the VFL owing to this), the counter arguement of f/t training, elite facilities & better player development owing to more coaches comes to the fore too.

 

[donbooger]

Richmond 2011 would thump 80s Hawthorn. They would effect a high pressure zone, flood mercilessly and run then off there legs, 2 on 1 contests all over the ground, Hawthorn would struggle to score, did they even use the interchange for anything but injured players at that time?

Train Hawthorn for a pre season with new fitness requirements and tactics and the result would be completely reversed of course, Hawks player talent is far far superior.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

Richmond 2011 would thump 80s Hawthorn. They would effect a high pressure zone, flood mercilessly and run then off there legs, 2 on 1 contests all over the ground, Hawthorn would struggle to score, did they even use the interchange for anything but injured players at that time?

Train Hawthorn for a pre season with new fitness requirements and tactics and the result would be completely reversed of course, Hawks player talent is far far superior.

I dont think Richmond would touch the ball in the 1st quarter -Jakey King and those type of stoogers -oh and i forgot hes one of their better players-dear oh dear

Players fitness -when Walls was coaching Fitzroy in the 80s he made them do 100 100s at training one night -so they wernt too unfit in that era

 

[Cat Tragic]

89 Hawthorn would thump Richmond 11 - Dipper and Dermie would whack the tigger boys and they wouldn't go near it for the rest of the match!

 

[donbooger]

I dont think Richmond would touch the ball in the 1st quarter -Jakey King and those type of stoogers -oh and i forgot hes one of their better players-dear oh dear

Players fitness -when Walls was coaching Fitzroy in the 80s he made them do 100 100s at training one night -so they wernt too unfit in that era

They were not unfit, I believe they were very fit. Its not comparing fit people and unfit people, the needs of todays game has pushed fitness needs through the roof incomparable anymore even to 10 years ago.

The fitness is not the key however it is the tactics that are opened up by this fitness - team defense, flooding, zones, mass rotations, clearance set plays, stoppage crowding etc.

Doesnt matter if Jake King is one of Richmonds best players, the reason this argument is brought up every now and then is to consider the difference 30 years of tactics evolution would make on a team of mugs against a team of champions.