Tertiary and Continuing The Law Thread

[jonoman89]

+1. I think this reflects pretty badly on your institution, its law society and yourself personally.

To be fair law schools don't tell you 50% of the stuff you need to know. Law school is sold as "come here, get a degree and become the next denny crane".

They don't tell you about the clerkship process, how you need to have a transcript filled with D's and HD's and have a ton of volunteer experience and extra-curricular positions to be any chance of getting a top-tier gig. Or that if you don't have a degree from a Group of Eight university that your marks will be looked down upon by many, no matter how good they are. Or that law students have some of the highest rates of youth depression and anxiety.

There's far too many law students. Universities are greedy and want the funding so they only tell you half the story to drag you in. It's only getting worse...I was shocked at the amount of new faces I have seen this week.

 

[checkraiseulite]

To be fair law schools don't tell you 50% of the stuff you need to know. Law school is sold as "come here, get a degree and become the next denny crane".

They don't tell you about the clerkship process, how you need to have a transcript filled with D's and HD's and have a ton of volunteer experience and extra-curricular positions to be any chance of getting a top-tier gig. Or that if you don't have a degree from a Group of Eight university that your marks will be looked down upon by many, no matter how good they are. Or that law students have some of the highest rates of youth depression and anxiety.

There's far too many law students. Universities are greedy and want the funding so they only tell you half the story to drag you in. It's only getting worse...I was shocked at the amount of new faces I have seen this week.

All this stuff is not news to anyone that has been in the system for more than about 18 months. It's also not as bad as you make it out to be (and I'm quite cynical myself).

It just boggles my mind how you could possibly get to your final year and have no idea what a clerkship is (by then you have obviously missed the boat). The university, and particularly the law society or equivalent obviously are somewhat responsible for this complete lack of awareness amongst the students. Also, if you have any interaction with your fellow students surely they would be talking quite a bit about what they're applying for etc. However perhaps the emphasis on obtaining a clerkship is different in SA to Vic, I have no idea.

With regard to the depression/anxiety and drug use stats I'd say take them with a pinch of salt. I'd say the character traits I've witnessed in a lot of law students would definitely make them the most likely to report their supposed depression/anxiety to the university. Whether they indeed have the highest rate of depression/anxiety is another issue. IMO they are quite prone to feeling a bit sorry for themselves.

 

[jo172]

It just boggles my mind how you could possibly get to your final year and have no idea what a clerkship is (by then you have obviously missed the boat). The university, and particularly the law society or equivalent obviously are somewhat responsible for this complete lack of awareness amongst the students. Also, if you have any interaction with your fellow students surely they would be talking quite a bit about what they're applying for etc. However perhaps the emphasis on obtaining a clerkship is different in SA to Vic, I have no idea.

I can promise you, unless things have drastically changed at Adelaide, the information is all out there to anyone who has their eyes open.

 

[jonoman89]

All this stuff is not news to anyone that has been in the system for more than about 18 months. It's also not as bad as you make it out to be (and I'm quite cynical myself).

That's the issue though. School leaver should be told in no uncertain terms what a law degree will be like and what it can/will lead to. The common university mantra of "find out for yourself" shouldn't apply to 17 and 18 year old kids.

A non-Go8 law school won't tell you their degrees are often near-worthless in the eyes of many employers. They won't tell you that a pass or credit average won't open many doors for you. They still push the "law is very prestigious, you're smart to get in and will be paid handsomely" line of thought.

You find out the real nature of the degree once you're already knee deep in it.

I'm in my final year now, but in first year I had very limited knowledge about what one may call the "hidden" requirements of getting a decent job in the law. I don't think many can say they got into law with a completely accurate idea of what would be required of them.

I think the LIV is failing to educate school leavers about the nature of the degree and the profession.

 

[checkraiseulite]

That's the issue though. School leaver should be told in no uncertain terms what a law degree will be like and what it can/will lead to. The common university mantra of "find out for yourself" shouldn't apply to 17 and 18 year old kids.

A non-Go8 law school won't tell you their degrees are often near-worthless in the eyes of many employers. They won't tell you that a pass or credit average won't open many doors for you. They still push the "law is very prestigious, you're smart to get in and will be paid handsomely" line of thought.

You find out the real nature of the degree once you're already knee deep in it.

I'm in my final year now, but in first year I had very limited knowledge about what one may call the "hidden" requirements of getting a decent job in the law. I don't think many can say they got into law with a completely accurate idea of what would be required of them.

I think the LIV is failing to educate school leavers about the nature of the degree and the profession.

Please explain to me how the bolded is any different in an LLB than it would otherwise be if you were studying any other degree?

It's common knowledge that it's a generalist degree now. To believe otherwise would be foolish. If you're going to commit 5 years and mid five figures to getting an LLB, you should at least do a little bit of your own research first.

As an aside we were told in first year that law is the wrong profession if you're interested in making money and given a handout detailing that X% of lawyers earn less than $YY,YYY amongst other things.

Btw, G8 is an advantage, but not quite as big a one as you are making out. Your perception of this is probably amplified by speaking directly to dinosaur partners who often don't have a huge input into the recruiting process in larger firms.

 

[jonoman89]

Please explain to me how the bolded is any different in an LLB than it would otherwise be if you were studying any other degree?

Med - shortage of doctors, guaranteed big bucks if you last
Accounting - get a D average and you'll get hired by a top tier firm quite easily

Could bring up IT, engineering... etc. etc.

It's common knowledge that it's a generalist degree now. To believe otherwise would be foolish. If you're going to commit 5 years and mid five figures to getting an LLB, you should at least do a little bit of your own research first.

It's treated as a generalist degree but that couldn't be anything further from the truth. An LLB is a professional degree, it tailors you to a profession. It may compliment other degrees well, but when it comes down to it, the LLB teaches you the law. Particularly at Monash where the overwhelming emphasis is on legal practise rather than academia or policy issues.

An Arts degree is a generalist degree. I can't say law is.

As an aside we were told in first year that law is the wrong profession if you're interested in making money and given a handout detailing that X% of lawyers earn less than $YY,YYY amongst other things.

Not talking about your first year. I was given the same information. It's the information that school leavers receive which is important.

Btw, G8 is an advantage, but not quite as big a one as you are making out. Your perception of this is probably amplified by speaking directly to dinosaur partners who often don't have a huge input into the recruiting process in larger firms.

And there's still a lot of those old dinosaurs around. A 70% average at Melbourne and Monash will be looked on more favourably than a 75-80% at Deakin, La Trobe or VU. Every day of the week.

Some of my friends who graduated last year are working at top-tier firms and said a minimum 70% of grad positions went to Monash and Melbourne students. Them's the facts unfortunately. But it is gradually shifting from that old elitist sentiment.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Med - shortage of doctors, guaranteed big bucks if you last
Accounting - get a D average and you'll get hired by a top tier firm quite easily

Could bring up IT, engineering... etc. etc.


It's treated as a generalist degree but that couldn't be anything further from the truth. An LLB is a professional degree, it tailors you to a profession. It may compliment other degrees well, but when it comes down to it, the LLB teaches you the law. Particularly at Monash where the overwhelming emphasis is on legal practise rather than academia or policy issues.

An Arts degree is a generalist degree. I can't say law is.



Not talking about your first year. I was given the same information. It's the information that school leavers receive which is important.



And there's still a lot of those old dinosaurs around. A 70% average at Melbourne and Monash will be looked on more favourably than a 75-80% at Deakin, La Trobe or VU. Every day of the week.

Some of my friends who graduated last year are working at top-tier firms and said a minimum 70% of grad positions went to Monash and Melbourne students. Them's the facts unfortunately. But it is gradually shifting from that old elitist sentiment.

The accounting comment damages your credibility straight off the bat. Big4 (particularly advisory & tax) is very competitive anf draws from a much larger pool.

With med, there are positions out there but the top metro hospitals are also very competitive. Many grads are forced to look at regional and rural hospitals where the true shortage (for students straight out of university) lies. From what I've heard about regional legal practice they face a similar struggle to attract and retain junior lawyers.

I don't know enough about engineering/IT to comment. Though I would guess that IT jobs are not as prevalent as they were a few years ago and engineering is in the middle of a boom on the back of the resources industry.

I'm not going to debate you about whether law is a generalist degree or not. In my view it very clearly is.

In a vacuum I agree with your sentiments re: g8>non g8 as we have seen previously in this thread.

Top-tier in Melbourne I would say it's probably more like 85% Melbourne/Monash but it's hardly surprising and not undeserved either. The top 5-10% (and others) of students at Deakin/La Trobe though will still have a decent shot of landing clerkships/graduate positions there.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's unrealistic for schools to be saying "there are x times more law students in Melbourne than there are graduate positions at Melbourne law firms, so rethink studying law unless you want to end up potentially flipping burgers."
At some point people need to take responsibility and do some research before making life changing decisions. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there.

Do people think you're guaranteed (or entitled) to a grad job just for completing the course?

 

[fairdinkum]

Interesting conversation fellas, quite enjoying it.

 

[cartel]

Just regarding medicine as a career choice, which was touched upon, there is likely to be overall an ongoing shortage of doctors everywhere, especially with the baby boomers reaching retirement. This is particularly in rural and regional areas, but there is nationwide shortage of some specialties.

There is however a glut graduating, and although all local students are pretty much guaranteed an internship, we work less hours than what we used to. Good for patient safety, not so good for professional learning when you are still quite junior and not great salary wise either - almost no overtime around.

It would have been difficult for me to contemplate doing an degree of comparable length and difficulty (ie law) without a guarantee of a job at the end of it. I know that this is the case with most fields, however.

Big bucks only apply at least 10-15 years after graduation, after successful completion of a specialty training with a public position and/or a reasonable private practice, where you have had to sacrifice an awful lot of other things to get there. Even then, you can earn more money for less work/stress elsewhere.

Anyway, I'm thinking of doing a JD somewhere down the track, probably in another 4 or 5 years, to add another element to my career. Don't want to exclusively (or even necessarily) practice as a lawyer. As somewhat of an outsider, I view it as a generalist degree with professional opportunities.

 

[jo172]

It's treated as a generalist degree but that couldn't be anything further from the truth. An LLB is a professional degree, it tailors you to a profession. It may compliment other degrees well, but when it comes down to it, the LLB teaches you the law. Particularly at Monash where the overwhelming emphasis is on legal practise rather than academia or policy issues.

An Arts degree is a generalist degree. I can't say law is.

I think you're right. A law degree is really only good for the practise of law.

However, that hasn't stopped it becoming highly sought after by non-legal employers. It's a chicken and an egg thing but amongst my contemporaries there were many who never considered practising law instead viewing it as an avenue into the larger Accounting firms and/or public policy. It worked out pretty well for them too. They were generally satisfactorily employed much quicker than those with their heart set on practice.

Not talking about your first year. I was given the same information. It's the information that school leavers receive which is important.

I have little sympathy here. If you're in Year 12 and choosing a Uni degree without doing a little bit of research as to the reality of the career you can't really expect to be spoon-fed it.

Secondly, it's not like embarking upon an llb means you have to finish it. Countless people leave degrees after their first year without any major ramifications.

 

[DTRAIN87]

Jonos views are very simplistic. Many if not the vast majority of students choose the degree for other reasons where I go and do never want to practice a day in their life. Top tier graduate positions are filled with the best candidates regardless of school. A mate of mine who was in a position to claim a special position for one gread of each sex got beaten by his mate from VU. G8 being and advantage is a load of crap. Especially considering the G8 is self important and other unis threaten the G8 now despite their newness. Look outside the square.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Let's not go down this path again mate.

You're entitled to your views but don't be surprised if no-one here agrees with you, whether they are g8 or not.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Jonos views are very simplistic. Many if not the vast majority of students choose the degree for other reasons where I go and do never want to practice a day in their life. Top tier graduate positions are filled with the best candidates regardless of school. A mate of mine who was in a position to claim a special position for one gread of each sex got beaten by his mate from VU. G8 being and advantage is a load of crap. Especially considering the G8 is self important and other unis threaten the G8 now despite their newness. Look outside the square.

A firm taking two grads and arbitrarily restricting their intake to one male and one female doesn't sound like the kind of place I'd be wanting to work anyway.

 

[DTRAIN87]

A firm taking two grads and arbitrarily restricting their intake to one male and one female doesn't sound like the kind of place I'd be wanting to work anyway.

It was a funded position from an external institution to the company and that was their criteria to eliminate gender inequality apparently.

 

[jo172]

It was a funded position from an external institution to the company and that was their criteria to eliminate gender inequality apparently.

How does taking one of each remedy existing gender inequality?

 

[DTRAIN87]

How does taking one of each remedy existing gender inequality?

No for the purposes of this award given with this position. No relation to overall gender inequality.

 

[checkraiseulite]

So it wasn't a grad position at all?

 

[DTRAIN87]

So it wasn't a grad position at all?

It was a grad position however those that got it had the ability to go to the overseas office and have their time at the overseas office funded for their 6 month stay and would have a post grad qualification such as a graddip or masters funded.

 

[checkraiseulite]

The plot thickens.

 

[slashin_velvet]

Just quickly here - A lot of people are talking about doing Law, Accounting or Med which are all vastly different skills in quite different areas.

I cant for the life of me understand why people dont stop and say:
- What are my skills?
- What do I enjoy?
- What can I see myself getting up for everyday for the rest of my life?

Forget about the bullshit of "I work for (insert big 4 accounting or top tier law firm here)" because in the real world no-one else gives a shit.

If you suck with numbers, I dont want you as my accountant. If you suck with a knife, i dont want you as my surgeon. If you dont understand english and the law, I dont want you as my lawyer.

Do what you're good and and what you enjoy because you will be far better at that than anything else.

 

[fairdinkum]

Forget about the bullshit of "I work for (insert big 4 accounting or top tier law firm here)" because in the real world no-one else gives a shit.

Which real world is that, ese?

 

[checkraiseulite]

Just quickly here - A lot of people are talking about doing Law, Accounting or Med which are all vastly different skills in quite different areas.

I cant for the life of me understand why people dont stop and say:
- What are my skills?
- What do I enjoy?
- What can I see myself getting up for everyday for the rest of my life?

Forget about the bullshit of "I work for (insert big 4 accounting or top tier law firm here)" because in the real world no-one else gives a shit.

If you suck with numbers, I dont want you as my accountant. If you suck with a knife, i dont want you as my surgeon. If you dont understand english and the law, I dont want you as my lawyer.

Do what you're good and and what you enjoy because you will be far better at that than anything else.

This is pretty bad advice and not really applicable here after we've already spent 5 years and 5 figures getting our degree. This type of thing is probably a bit more relevant in the school--->uni transition rather than uni--->workforce (though a lot of the arguments against it still apply).

The main reason being is that unless you have actually stepped inside a "top-tier law firm" or big 4 accounting for any substantial period of time you have no idea whether it's "something you can see yourself getting up for the rest of your life". This is particularly true with law as there is virtually no overlap in the type of work you will be doing in a top-tier firm and a generalist suburban practice.

People also use big4/top-tier law as a stepping stone to in-house roles elsewhere because of brand-recognition/contacts made whilst at these large firms.

21-24 year olds straight out of uni are in no position to "know what they're good at", especially in the context of making rest of your life decisions.

 

[slashin_velvet]

Which real world is that, ese?

In the world I live in. Big 4 accountants talk it up, but ive been there, done that and now that im out in industry ive come to realize that its nowhere near as respected as they would have you believe in the interview process.

 

[fairdinkum]

Well tell us more about your experiences. What was your role in one of these organisations, for how long, why are you no longer there, etc.

 

[slashin_velvet]

This is pretty bad advice and not really applicable here after we've already spent 5 years and 5 figures getting our degree. This type of thing is probably a bit more relevant in the school--->uni transition rather than uni--->workforce (though a lot of the arguments against it still apply).

The main reason being is that unless you have actually stepped inside a "top-tier law firm" or big 4 accounting for any substantial period of time you have no idea whether it's "something you can see yourself getting up for the rest of your life". This is particularly true with law as there is virtually no overlap in the type of work you will be doing in a top-tier firm and a generalist suburban practice.

People also use big4/top-tier law as a stepping stone to in-house roles elsewhere because of brand-recognition/contacts made whilst at these large firms.

21-24 year olds straight out of uni are in no position to "know what they're good at", especially in the context of making rest of your life decisions.

Bad advice? So people should do jobs they are inadequate at and dont enjoy?

I was under the impression that this thread was for not only those studying, but those intending to study law.

If you don't know what you are good at (even if at a broad level) you shouldn't be doing further education. I don't understand why someone who sucked at maths in high school think they can just learn finance or accounting and that it will be easy. (A comment I heard more than once by friends studying law at uni).

I will concede its hard to know if you will enjoy big 4, however my point relates to the work, and not the culture. (I did the big 4 thing for a while and hated the culture). You can be an accountant in professional services or in business but you should know if you like accounting from the get go. If you dont, I cant understand why you pursue this as a career which you will be doing for a long time.