Tertiary and Continuing The Law Thread

[checkraiseulite]

The whole point of my post was that you won't know if you're inadequate or that you won't enjoy a job until you're actually doing it. From most reports very few jobs require extensive use of what you've learnt at uni.

The accounting you do at uni is nothing like what you'd be doing at big4 accounting anyway.

I agree with you that if you're terrible with numbers you'd be silly to apply for a job as an accountant (and be unlikely to get it). But you'd be equally silly to pay for/waste time studying accounting in the first place.

Interestingly, the one thing I did like about big4 accounting was the culture. The work I did there sucked (excel/powerpoint/admin all day, every day).

 

[slashin_velvet]

I agree with you that if you're terrible with numbers you'd be silly to apply for a job as an accountant (and be unlikely to get it). But you'd be equally silly to pay for/waste time studying accounting in the first place.

Interestingly, the one thing I did like about big4 accounting was the culture. The work I did there sucked (excel/powerpoint/admin all day, every day).

Im glad you agree with what ive said. Unfortunately, my experience is that many people dont think about the future when thinking about uni. Its a time filler between 18-24 whilst they work out what they want to do.

The culture is an interesting point. I was in an area that preys on bad news (not good news) and worked a lot with lawyers. I found that the culture was very political and backstabby, and very "work hard, play hard" with no real recognition for good work. These all contributed to me moving on to greener pastures.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Yeah it seems a pretty high pressure work environment, I was lucky in that I was only there for a vacationer position (to satisfy the professional experience component of my degree) and got into a team with some pretty good people.

I knew from the outset that I didn't want to work there full-time so I was able to not care so much about the brown-nosing/politics/tension etc that seemed pretty embedded at the higher levels.

A lot of the younger people seemed to be just getting through the fully funded/supported CA and then moving into a cushier job elsewhere with big4 experience and contacts under their belt.

 

[slashin_velvet]

A lot of the younger people seemed to be just getting through the fully funded/supported CA and then moving into a cushier job elsewhere with big4 experience and contacts under their belt.

Pretty much what i did, except i left earlier than usual when a great opportunity arose and did one exam (started the week before) and my last subject with the new company (my final exam is on tuesday assuming I pass).

The benefits for the CA program at a big 4 doesnt compare to most industry jobs. However for me the benefit wasnt worth all the bullshit that went along with the "prestige"

 

[jonoman89]

The accounting comment damages your credibility straight off the bat. Big4 (particularly advisory & tax) is very competitive anf draws from a much larger pool.

Have friends at top-tier accounting firms. Had D averages and not all that much extra-curricular resume padding. Got internships at a few places relatively easily, and got grad jobs relatively easily too.

Same people had similar averages in their LLB and got a few offers, but nothing top-tier, thus they are pursing the commerce side of their degree.

Haven't heard anyone (except you?) suggest that commercial law is an easier caper to get into.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's unrealistic for schools to be saying "there are x times more law students in Melbourne than there are graduate positions at Melbourne law firms, so rethink studying law unless you want to end up potentially flipping burgers."
At some point people need to take responsibility and do some research before making life changing decisions. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there.

Do people think you're guaranteed (or entitled) to a grad job just for completing the course?

Entitled? No, not at all. I think positions should most definitely be awarded on merit.

The issue is that a lot of highly intelligent, hard working people spend 5 years of their life studying a degree. Then they end up not getting a job often through no real fault of their own. Many people have great marks, and great people skills, but can't get a job they desire as 1000 people apply for 60 positions.

Someone's got to win and someone has to lose. The issue I have is that too many people lose in the legal job market because of the competition. Competition created through an over supply of LLBs and relatively few graduate positions available.

It's a basic principle that if supply or demand outstrip each other, then the market isn't operating efficiently. That is quite clearly the case in the law.

Jonos views are very simplistic. Many if not the vast majority of students choose the degree for other reasons where I go and do never want to practice a day in their life.

The majority of persons I study with want to practise. And besides the point really. Even taking into account the large proportion of persons who do not practise, there are still too many law graduates. Their skills and intelligence could be better used towards other endeavours.

G8 being and advantage is a load of crap.

You cannot be serious. Look at grad recruitment figures and get back to me. I'm not one to look down upon other universities, but the prejudice is alive and well in certain circles. Getting less and less over time however.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Have friends at top-tier accounting firms. Had D averages and not all that much extra-curricular resume padding. Got internships at a few places relatively easily, and got grad jobs relatively easily too.

Same people had similar averages in their LLB and got a few offers, but nothing top-tier, thus they are pursing the commerce side of their degree.

Haven't heard anyone (except you?) suggest that commercial law is an easier caper to get into.

So these people you were mentioning had comm/law degrees from Melbourne/Monash? I'm going to guess quite a few of them are working in tax where it's virtually impossible to get a grad job without an LLB in addition to a commerce degree?

Your initial post made it sound like anyone with a D average in an accounting/commerce degree could walk into a top tier accounting grad job, which is just wrong.

I'm not saying big4 accounting is harder to get into than top-tier law. What I may be willing to bet on though is that they have a similar or higher ratio of applications to graduate positions.

Removing the top-tier requirement I'd also say it's probably easier to get a job in commercial law at Gadens (or other comparable mid-tier firms) than it is to get a big4 advisory job for a comm/law student.

P.S your friends sound like overly prestige-oriented idiots taking big4 accounting over mid-tier law if they had wanted to be lawyers at the start of the application process.

 

[jonoman89]

So these people you were mentioning had comm/law degrees from Melbourne/Monash? I'm going to guess quite a few of them are working in tax where it's virtually impossible to get a grad job without an LLB in addition to a commerce degree?

M&A and insolvency. Don't know many who are interested at all in tax.

Your initial post made it sound like anyone with a D average in an accounting/commerce degree could walk into a top tier accounting grad job, which is just wrong.

Not suggesting you can simply walk in. But it's considerably easier than getting a gig at top-tier law firms. That is, from what I have heard. I'm not a commerce student.

P.S your friends sound like overly prestige-oriented idiots taking big4 accounting over mid-tier law if they had wanted to be lawyers at the start of the application process.

Law students, what do you expect?

 

[checkraiseulite]

It's not 'considerably easier' for a commerce student to get a job at a big4 accounting firm than it is for a law student to get a job at a top-tier law firm. It may have been for your comm/law friends (lol sample size) but it isn't as a general rule. Supply and demand ldo.

For the record it's definitely harder to land an actual M&A position at big4 than a top-tier law job.

 

[slashin_velvet]

For the record it's definitely harder to land an actual M&A position at big4 than a top-tier law job.

From my experience, they dont hire any M&A positions as grads. They hire for either a "Transactions" group or a corporate finance group and then after some time in the system, the best ones go to work in M&A. This is coming from someone who has actually worked in the system full time in an "Financial Advisory" Category (Where I worked this included M&A, Insolvency, Forensic)

In terms of your other point, I think it is easier for comm grads to get a big 4 placement, assuming they are willing to settle for Audit and not one of the boutique areas.

 

[slashin_velvet]

In terms of G8, it is definately an advantage to getting into the top tier groups.

Most partners I spoke with used the perspective of: High achievers go to the universities that are harder to get into. In Melbourne this means Melbourne or Monash instead of Deakin or Latrobe for a commerce/law style degree

 

[getthefooty]

This is heavily premature but I've just finished my first week of Law at Monash and I can really see the distance I live from the uni being an issue. I live miles away but pretty close to LaTrobe. Would it reflect badly on me if I transferred to LaTrobe after say a year? It would purely be because of the convenience, petrol money etc adds up.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Give it a semester and reevaluate whether you actually need to bother attending classes.

Clayton is a shit-hole, I don't blame you for not wanting to spend too much time out there.

 

[fairdinkum]

Give it a semester and reevaluate whether you actually need to bother attending classes.

Erm, the guy said he studies Law. Now sure how they run things at Deakin but at Monash, there are generally attendance marks for tutes which can be (and often are) the difference between Cs and Ds.

I reckon he probably needs to bother attending classes.

Clayton is a shit-hole, I don't blame you for not wanting to spend too much time out there.

Yeah, fair call.

 

[slashin_velvet]

This is heavily premature but I've just finished my first week of Law at Monash and I can really see the distance I live from the uni being an issue. I live miles away but pretty close to LaTrobe. Would it reflect badly on me if I transferred to LaTrobe after say a year? It would purely be because of the convenience, petrol money etc adds up.

Suck it up would be my advice. May sound harsh, but if you can get into a better uni, the travel is worth it.

I could have done my degree at Melbourne or Monash - I live right near monash, but went to melbourne because it was harder to get into and has a better recognised degree.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Erm, the guy said he studies Law. Now sure how they run things at Deakin but at Monash, there are generally attendance marks for tutes which can be (and often are) the difference between Cs and Ds.

I reckon he probably needs to bother attending classes.

What I meant wasto stick it out for 6 months and see what he needs to attend and what he doesn't and then try and condense his schedule as much as possible to minimise the amount of trips out to Clayton.

 

[slashin_velvet]

What I meant wasto stick it out for 6 months and see what he needs to attend and what he doesn't and then try and condense his schedule as much as possible to minimise the amount of trips out to Clayton.

Scheduling is the most important point. I used to get my whole course done in 2 days, which made travel costs almost half what they were in my first semester where i went almost every day.

 

[getthefooty]

Cheers, thought that might be the case. I'm going to everything atm as you do when you first start but will definitely start condensing things once I figure out which lectures aren't important. I'm not doing straight Law so some Arts subjects might get the flick.

And yeah it's a pretty vibe-less sort of place. Was getting kind of excited for O-week etc and then see shit is happening in Knox City and what have you, **** that. Would really have preferred to go to Melbourne but hate the model.

 

[fairdinkum]

And yeah [Monash Clayton] a pretty vibe-less sort of place. Was getting kind of excited for O-week etc and then see shit is happening in Knox City and what have you, **** that.

Yep. Unless you live in Halls, you aren't going to get anywhere near the uni experience you had hoped for at Monash Clayton. Even living nearby in share houses is sub-optimal because the vast majority of students at Clayton are either internationals or people who commute by car and don't get into the atmosphere.

On the upside, you'll end up with a Monash degree. Amirite?

 

[checkraiseulite]

Yep. Unless you live in Halls, you aren't going to get anywhere near the uni experience you had hoped for at Monash Clayton. Even living nearby in share houses is sub-optimal because the vast majority of students at Clayton are either internationals or people who commute by car and don't get into the atmosphere.

I think what you're saying is applicable to pretty much any Australian university.

Unless you live in colleges are super outgoing or have particular interests that align with university-run clubs you're going to be left significantly underwhelmed with regard to student life.

Part of this I think can be attributed to the fact that we tend to go to school in the city we went to high school in and therefore don't really need to find a whole new social circle at uni, but part of it is just total fail by the universities themselves.

 

[LouisCK]

I think what you're saying is applicable to pretty much any Australian university.

Unless you live in colleges are super outgoing or have particular interests that align with university-run clubs you're going to be left significantly underwhelmed with regard to student life.

Part of this I think can be attributed to the fact that we tend to go to school in the city we went to high school in and therefore don't really need to find a whole new social circle at uni, but part of it is just total fail by the universities themselves.

Deakin is pretty damn social. I'm too old to partake or care, but its got a solid pisshead culture.

Shit, the UFF make money even after being thrown out of the place when their parties started getting too wild.

 

[Caesar]

Lots of talk in this thread about the G8/non-G8 divide between unis. In my experience, with regards to law the divide is more sandstone/non-sandstone. UNSW and Monash are the second-choice law schools in their respective states by a pretty wide margin (UNSW by a long way), and ANU is mostly only advantageous if you want to work for the government.

 

[fairdinkum]

I think what you're saying is applicable to pretty much any Australian university.

At Monash Clayton it is worse because

a) It is a private transport dominated campus, so people generally drive in and then drive straight back out. This is not conducive to sticking around for a few beers etc, especially given 0.00BAC laws.

b) There is nothing in Clayton itself. One main street (which is ages from the actual campus anyway). No point in sticking around except to eat at the campus centre (the less said about which the better, I hasten to add).

Unless you live in colleges are super outgoing or have particular interests that align with university-run clubs you're going to be left significantly underwhelmed with regard to student life.

Yep, fair call.

Part of this I think can be attributed to the fact that we tend to go to school in the city we went to high school in and therefore don't really need to find a whole new social circle at uni/

Yep. Compared to our American friends, we are almost completely immobile when it comes to tertiary education. It is a shame, but totally understandable. Each state (with the exception of Tassy) has a G8 uni so there is no real compulsion for most people to go elsewhere. Also, our capital cities are miles apart compared to other comparable countries so a move for uni is generally a move away from family and friends with little chance for reunion outside of Christmas.

Would be great if it weren't this way. I say this as somebody who studied in his own state before moving to another to study some more.

but part of it is just total fail by the universities themselves.

Yep. I'd be interested to know how many officers each Australian uni employees (in absolute numbers and in officer:student numbers) to help facilitate/coordinate the social side of uni [inb4unishouldbeforlearningnotsocialisingipaytaxesdeytookerjobsrabblerabble].

 

[checkraiseulite]

Lots of talk in this thread about the G8/non-G8 divide between unis. In my experience, with regards to law the divide is more sandstone/non-sandstone. UNSW and Monash are the second-choice law schools in their respective states by a pretty wide margin (UNSW by a long way), and ANU is mostly only advantageous if you want to work for the government.

Knowing quite a few people that have completed law at both Melbourne and Monash I'd say the divide between them has been pretty negligible recently.

The Melbourne Model J.D thing should shake this up a little bit though. Both in terms of desirability of high-achieving students straight out of high school, as well as how the two programs are going to be looked upon by firms.

 

[DTRAIN87]

You cannotdo the J.D. without completing a course first. This is why Melbourne is slowly getting looked down on as a uni.

 

[checkraiseulite]

No shit, but it's not getting 'looked down upon' as a uni for that reason. Students are just aware (or should be aware) of the risks involved when other universities haven't adopted a similar model.

The model is a good idea in theory (and will imo turn out better lawyers for the sole reason of its students being more mature) but it's going to struggle to attract some of the best talent straight out of school when they can get a guaranteed med or comm/law place at Monash.

I don't know a huge amount about it, but it seems crazy to me to risk not getting into postgrad law or med just to get a more well-rounded education/greater university experience that the Melbourne Model purportedly offers.

It's definitely a brave move from Melbourne.