"The Left"

[Schache It Off]

The poor Germans are so frighten of being called Nazi that they have given up their country to the PC.

It's terrible to see Germany fall this low.

 

[smokingjacket]

It's terrible to see Germany fall this low.

Yes, I'm sure average Germans are sitting at home, in shame at having taken in vulnerable and desperate people you cretin.

You call yourself a libertarian? The actual ****.
Play by Numbers we've got another ones of Rand's pseudo-soldiers of objectivism here.

Australia is signed up to the same international treaties that Germany is currently enacting. We can make arguments for why we don't want to live up to those same principles but to say that the international law, that we signed, and Germany is following, is somehow worthy of scorn, well, I'm not sure why I'd expect more from but I hold out in hope that one day you'll be embarrassed of yourself. Even the PM who's last single achievement is turning back the boats has changed his position on this. Grow up.

 

[Schache It Off]

Yes, I'm sure average Germans are sitting at home, in shame at having taken in vulnerable and desperate people you cretin.

You call yourself a libertarian? The actual ****.
Play by Numbers we've got another ones of Rand's pseudo-soldiers of objectivism here.

Australia is signed up to the same international treaties that Germany is currently enacting. We can make arguments for why we don't want to live up to those same principles but to say that the international law, that we signed, and Germany is following, is somehow worthy of scorn, well, I'm not sure why I'd expect more from but I hold out in hope that one day you'll be embarrassed of yourself. Even the PM who's last single achievement is turning back the boats has changed his position on this. Grow up.

What does this have to do with me being libertarian? Or a Rand's pseudo soldier...?

It is understandable that a mass influx of people who are culturally this different will cause issue, anyone would understand how disastrous this would be - Libertarian/Conservative though for some reason "The Left" don't see this at all.

Let's not forget about the possible isis warriors disguising themselves as refugees, because you know every single refugee is genuine.

Oh and don't forget the amount of theft required from the state in the form of taxation to support these people. Refugees generally are unlikely to find jobs and be a net positive to the economy, an example being 9/10 refugees from Iraq and Afghanistan backgrounds being on centerlink after five years, they just cannot get jobs. http://www.news.com.au/national/a-w...are-for-refugees/story-e6frfkvr-1226050161428

I am not saying all 9/10 Syrians would be unemployed, but you can conclude there would be plenty unemployed due to the current policies Europe practices,

While we are talking about Europe, generally that most of these refugees will be a burden on the economy and this isn't the racism or stormfront bullshit that Malifice often tells me, the result means more taxation and that is theft and that is why I am against refugees flooding the nations in large numbers. You cannot have open borders with a welfare state....You will find plenty of libertarians argue this case with welfare and refugees.

You should grow up and check the facts.

 

[sproketman]

This brought the lols

https://quadrant.org.au/magazine/2015/09/fall-meritocracy/

 

[smokingjacket]

What does this have to do with me being libertarian? Or a Rand's pseudo soldier...?

It is understandable that a mass influx of people who are culturally this different will cause issue, anyone would understand how disastrous this would be - Libertarian/Conservative though for some reason "The Left" don't see this at all.

Let's not forget about the possible isis warriors disguising themselves as refugees, because you know every single refugee is genuine.

Oh and don't forget the amount of theft required from the state in the form of taxation to support these people. Refugees generally are unlikely to find jobs and be a net positive to the economy, an example being 9/10 refugees from Iraq and Afghanistan backgrounds being on centerlink after five years, they just cannot get jobs. http://www.news.com.au/national/a-w...are-for-refugees/story-e6frfkvr-1226050161428

I am not saying all 9/10 Syrians would be unemployed, but you can conclude there would be plenty unemployed due to the current policies Europe practices,

While we are talking about Europe, generally that most of these refugees will be a burden on the economy and this isn't the racism or stormfront bullshit that Malifice often tells me, the result means more taxation and that is theft and that is why I am against refugees flooding the nations in large numbers. You cannot have open borders with a welfare state.

You should grow up and check the facts.

"In summary your Honour, I have no concept of the founding principles and ethics of libertarianism or conservativism other than the fact that I don't like paying taxes. I rest my case."

Bold.

Ayn Rand was a refugee.

And no, most Libertarians don't agree that open borders are disastrous.

Your position is childish in the extreme and barely worth discussing but it angers me. You should be ashamed of your stupidity and yet you revel in it. Again, if you want to call yourself a libertarian or a conservative, you need to know what those things actually mean.

 

[smokingjacket]

This brought the lols

https://quadrant.org.au/magazine/2015/09/fall-meritocracy/

Jeebus. That is histrionic drivel, even for Quadrant. Egalitarianism, the road to state sanctioned murder ("in extreme cases").

It wasn’t just the sorting of children into sheep and goats at the age of eleven that my father objected to. As a socialist, he disapproved of equality of opportunity on the grounds that it gave the appearance of fairness to the massive inequalities created by capitalism. He feared that the meritocratic principle would help to legitimise the pyramid-like structure of British society.

Having said that, I recognise that a lack of social mobility poses a threat to the sustainability of liberal democracies and, in common with many others, believe the solution lies in improving our education systems.

Ahem. I should have stopped that. I did after this...

Throughout history, people’s status has rarely, if ever, been deserved. Even supposing it was possible to reach agreement about how to measure desert, it would require an all-powerful state to ensure that wealth and prestige were distributed according to that metric and, as with end-state equality, we’d end up paying too high a price in terms of liberty.

Do people pay attention to this sort of thing?

 

[samFFC]

It's terrible to see Germany fall this low.

You referring to the Greek bailouts?
You know, the wealthy economy that is in big strife? That is now a drain on the broader EU economy and thus the world as a whole?

Or do you mean the desperate , persecuted people seeking asylum? Who in many cases have done nothing wrong in their lives for them their family and their society, other than be born into their nation of origin.

How did you mean Germany sinking so low?

 

[samFFC]

Also it's probably been said - but left/right is one dimensional. Any serious modern discussion must surely be two dimensional: https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

The poor Germans are so frighten of being called Nazi that they have given up their country to the PC.

Does PC stand for Protestant Confident? Proudly Civil? I don't know why you think people should aspire to be mussie-whipped like you...

Take away residency from os students and then what would happen? I think we all know the answer to that (well ex Ratts).

We have less dodgy hairdresser and chef courses? Why are you advocating for less of a free market, when you claim to be pro small govt (except for the military in which you're big govt)?

 

[Lebbo73]

"In summary your Honour, I have no concept of the founding principles and ethics of libertarianism or conservativism other than the fact that I don't like paying taxes. I rest my case."

Bold.

Ayn Rand was a refugee.

And no, most Libertarians don't agree that open borders are disastrous.

Your position is childish in the extreme and barely worth discussing but it angers me. You should be ashamed of your stupidity and yet you revel in it. Again, if you want to call yourself a libertarian or a conservative, you need to know what those things actually mean.

I hope you like a lower pay packet. Because that is what will happen if you run an open border policy!

 

[The Speaker]

Also it's probably been said - but left/right is one dimensional. Any serious modern discussion must surely be two dimensional: https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2

At least two dimensional, although I'm not convinced that is actually enough.

The reason people drift back to one dimension is that it is a) simple and b) allows them to treat politics as sport.

 

[medusala]

We have less dodgy hairdresser and chef courses?

Yes the ALP made changes, one of their better policy efforts. Cant really think of any others ex maybe NDIS.

Why are you advocating for less of a free market, when you claim to be pro small govt (except for the military in which you're big govt)?

Its hardly a free market. It relies on govt subsidy via residency!!

Lol, big govt. The British ran the greatest empire the world has ever seen with military spending far > 3% and with bugger all in the way of income tax.

One wonders in what parallel world spending 3% gdp on the military can be considered as advocating big government.

Your understanding of economics is amusing.

 

[medusala]

For old fashioned left see Jeremy Corbyn

Probably about to become leader of the opposition in the UK

Makes Kim Carr look rational. Way out there.

 

[Pie eyed]

I hope you like a lower pay packet. Because that is what will happen if you run an open border policy!

How did you get in?

 

[Lebbo73]

How did you get in?

My great grandad paid his way in via the French. Perfectly legal. He was a Melkite Catholic persecuted by Muslims in Lebanon.

 

[JackOutback]

As pointed out, left and right are in the eye of the beholder. The simple fact is, Australia is a corporate capitalist system that puts us squarely in the right wing sphere, our two major political parties are both right wing. At best, we still have some leftist holdovers (Medicare, Social Security etc). The term 'lefty' is generally used to demean anyone who actually values those things above self interest.

 

[The Speaker]

As pointed out, left and right are in the eye of the beholder.

Then it isn't a useful model.

 

[JackOutback]

Then it isn't a useful model.

Perhaps I should clarify. It is used that way by the majority of people, ignorant of what the terms 'left' and 'right' actually mean. It is easy enough to seek out clarification for what the terms actually represent.

 

[The Speaker]

Perhaps I should clarify. It is used that way by the majority of people, ignorant of what the terms 'left' and 'right' actually mean. It is easy enough to seek out clarification for what the terms actually represent.

A useful model should a) be clearly defined and b) represent reality.

Left-right does neither.

 

[JackOutback]

A useful model should a) be clearly defined and b) represent reality.

Left-right does neither.

I personally find Left-Right clearly defined and representing reality. Some people get lost because it's a spectrum and not a clear choice between two options. But just because people abuse the term doesn't mean we have to cater to the lowest common denominator. People abuse the English language all the time, that doesn't mean we constantly engage in wholesale change.

 

[The Speaker]

I personally find Left-Right clearly defined and representing reality. Some people get lost because it's a spectrum and not a clear choice between two options. But just because people abuse the term doesn't mean we have to cater to the lowest common denominator. People abuse the English language all the time, that doesn't mean we constantly engage in wholesale change.

Okay, please define them.

 

[JackOutback]

Okay, please define them.

At their most basic, Left is the support of social equality (and political systems that support it), Right is the belief that inequality is inevitable (and political systems that allow for it).

 

[The Speaker]

At their most basic, Left is the support of social equality (and political systems that support it), Right is the belief that inequality is inevitable (and political systems that allow for it).

Now, where do these three political ideologies fit on the scale: libertarianism, Christian democracy, Agrarian socialism?

 

[JackOutback]

Now, where do these three political ideologies fit on the scale: libertarianism, Christian democracy, Agrarian socialism?

Right, right and left. That doesn't mean you won't find elements of right or left ideologies within them. It's a spectrum, not a black and white definition. It's all well and good to say it's not clear enough, but then, no definition will ever meet your standards of being clear enough. That's not how political systems operate, they evolve and adapt over time.

 

[Pie eyed]

My great grandad paid his way in via the French. Perfectly legal. He was a Melkite Catholic persecuted by Muslims in Lebanon.

Just interested.