The Law The Many Problems With Our Legal System

[footyfan1978]

I'm ok with both being options, depending on the severity, repeat offender, etc.

So you for capital punisment...got it...

 

[Gethelred]

I wouldn't be against it because I've seen it work here in SG and the vast majority are in favour of it.

I doubt the majority of the Oz public would be in favour of it though. Too soft. Just look at the OP. 78 year old grandmother hospitalized in an unprovoked attack and the judge's sentence was a paltry 3.5 years. The law is slanted towards protecting the perps. Disgraceful.

I don't get to talk to a capital punishment advocate every day. Huh.

What would you bring it in as a consequence for?

 

[Reynolds Number]

Singapore is a predominantly conservative East Asian culture and the laws reflect that. As do most countries on that continent.

I loved where I lived in Asia too and liked many aspects of the culture, however 5 years jail for possession of a joint would not work in a predominantly western culture.

Westerners are open minded on illicit use Asians despise illicit drug use. It is what it is. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Schneebly11]

It's become a health problem, because it was first allowed to become a criminal problem. The authorities didn't do enough to attack supply.

People have been partaking in the ingestion of mind altering substances since the Bronze Age. You’ll never get rid of the supply.

People want drugs. Some nations have decided the personal recreational use of all but the hardest substances can be done safely with regulations and any addiction can be treated by health professionals.

 

[Schneebly11]

Singapore is a predominantly conservative East Asian culture and the laws reflect that. As do most countries on that continent.

I loved where I lived in Asia too and liked many aspects of the culture, however 5 years jail for possession of a joint would not work in a predominantly western culture.

Westerners are open minded on illicit use Asians despise illicit drug use. It is what it is. Different strokes for different folks.

Absolutely. I’ve been an advocate for Australia moving closer to Asian culture on some fronts but on the drugs/criminal justice front we need to move towards the Nordic model.

 

[Rusty Brookes]

This hard line against drugs is one of the reasons I've stayed here all these years and not moved back to Oz yet. Peace of mind for my girls that they can walk the streets at any time of the day or night, and not have to be subjected to any drug related incidents. The way it should be.

So according to the World Population Review, Spain is the safest country in the world for women and also has some of the more liberal drug laws in the world.

Most Dangerous Countries for Women 2024

By the way, some of the countries (Iran, Malaysia) with the harshest drug laws are also some of the worst for women.

 

[Rod Stroker]

I don't get to talk to a capital punishment advocate every day. Huh.

What would you bring it in as a consequence for?

Have I not been clear enough ITT?

Drug trafficking. Particularly for harder drugs.

 

[Rod Stroker]

So according to the World Population Review, Spain is the safest country in the world for women and also has some of the more liberal drug laws in the world.

Most Dangerous Countries for Women 2024

Interesting. Singapore #2

 

[Madas]

Piece of s**t
Make him dead

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Couldn't find a relevant thread so started this one.

Reading this just makes my blood boil. 3.5 years jail for a drug cactus booze filled dickhead, who beat a 78 year old grandmother unconscious, broke her pelvis, put her in hospital, and she now can't care for her husband. Thugs like this with no respect for other people who aren't causing any harm, don't deserve to be on this planet. Would not be upset if he doesn't make it out of prison.

Much harsher penalties required down there as a deterrent against abhorrent behaviour like this. They need to adopt a zero tolerance approach with dire consequences, works well here in Singers.

‘Cowardly assault’: Jail for man who beat 78yo woman unconscious outside church

A 27-year-old science student who beat a grandmother unconscious on the steps of her South Yarra church will spend at least 3½ years in jail.

www.theage.com.au

Mod edit: don't evade the swear filter.

Do you have a magical wand that stops drugs coming into society?
The war on drugs has never worked, it justs wastes tax payers money on policing, jails and lawyers.
It costs $100,000 a year to pay for a prisoner.
In any case 80% of crime involving substances involves alcohol.
Paramedics, nurses and police get assaulted by drunks, domestic violence and assaults are due mainly to alcohol.
Alcohol is doing the most damage in society plus all the medical expenses involving alcohol abuse.

 

[Gethelred]

Have I not been clear enough ITT?

Drug trafficking. Particularly for harder drugs.

Sorry, haven't been reading along.

Why? What about drug trafficking makes it so heinous that you want to remove that person from existence?

 

[Rod Stroker]

Interesting viewing. For comparison, take a look at this.

 

[Rod Stroker]

The war on drugs has never worked, it justs wastes tax payers money on policing, jails and lawyers.

It has here. Granted this is a smaller country in terms of size and population so it's easier to control, but I guarantee if the courts down there actually grew some balls and imprisoned traffickers for life and or even ended some lives, there would be far fewer willing participants in the supply chain.

 

[Rod Stroker]

Sorry, haven't been reading along.

Why? What about drug trafficking makes it so heinous that you want to remove that person from existence?

Not sure if you're having a lend, or just genuinely being obtuse.

Do you think hard drugs have helped more lives, or harmed more lives?

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

It has here. Granted this is a smaller country in terms of size and population so it's easier to control, but I guarantee if the courts down there actually grew some balls and imprisoned traffickers for life and or even ended some lives, there would be far fewer willing participants in the supply chain.

You're kidding right? You can't stop drug supply. It's a demand and supply market.
Even if they find a massive haul of drugs, it's only a drop in the ocean.
Look at America, drugs everywhere and one of the biggest jail per capita populations in the world for drug offenders who go to jail and learn how to be hardened criminals.
Sorry but there's no simplistic answers.
Education rehabs and de-criminilisating some lower end drugs is the best answer.
Also what would you do about alcohol which causes the most damage in society?

 

[Schneebly11]

It has here. Granted this is a smaller country in terms of size and population so it's easier to control, but I guarantee if the courts down there actually grew some balls and imprisoned traffickers for life and or even ended some lives, there would be far fewer willing participants in the supply chain.

No.

The United States has a “tough on crime” philosophy, death sentences, life without parole, three strikes and you’re out, highest incarceration rate on the planet. Crime rates and drug use rates are higher than Australia.

Soft on crime works. Harm minimisation, legal regulation, rehabilitation, poverty and mental health alleviation work.

Brutalising often marginalised groups in the criminal justice system doesn’t.

These are facts.

 

[Schneebly11]

Do you think hard drugs have helped more lives, or harmed more lives?

But we’re not just talking “hard” drugs. Singapore executes people for cannabis trafficking, a drug which is proven to be less harmful than alcohol.

 

[Rod Stroker]

You're kidding right? You can't stop drug supply. It's a demand and supply market.
Even if they find a massive haul of drugs, it's only a drop in the ocean.
Look at America, drugs everywhere and one of the biggest jail per capita populations in the world for drug offenders who go to jail and learn how to be hardened criminals.
Sorry but there's no simplistic answers.
Education rehabs and de-criminilisating some lower end drugs is the best answer.
Also what would you do about alcohol which causes the most damage in society?

I've got no problem with people consuming alcohol. But if they then want to be a danger to society, king hitting people, drink driving, causing harm to others, then they should face harsh penalties.

This is one of the biggest social issues in Australia; people not being properly held to account for their actions, enabled by soft laws and soft penalties.

 

[Schneebly11]

I've got no problem with people consuming alcohol. But if they then want to be a danger to society, king hitting people, drink driving, causing harm to others, then they should face harsh penalties.

Yes, and it’s the same for a soft on drugs approach. You can have a joint or a beer quietly between friends, it’s when you perform dangerous actions under the influence of drugs or alcohol that you face penalties.

This is one of the biggest social issues in Australia; people not being properly held to account for their actions, enabled by soft laws and soft penalties.

You still can’t openly use cannabis for recreational purposes. Other nations you can, so we don’t have a “soft on drugs” approach.

 

[Rod Stroker]

Brutalising often marginalised groups in the criminal justice system doesn’t.

These are facts.

Facts in who's world? Not in mine.
I am convinced that the largely drug free society that I enjoy here, is because of the hardline stance taken by the law and the courts, that if you are caught trafficking, it's a lengthy jail sentence, or death. It is a powerful deterrent, indisputably, and the vast majority of residents endorses.

 

[Rod Stroker]

Yes, and it’s the same for a soft on drugs approach. You can have a joint or a beer quietly between friends, it’s when you perform dangerous actions under the influence of drugs or alcohol that you face penalties.

Yes but my point is that those penalties down there are pissweak. They do not act as a deterrent at all. If the penalties were harsher, there would be much less alcohol and drug fuelled crime.

 

[Gethelred]

Not sure if you're having a lend, or just genuinely being obtuse.

Do you think hard drugs have helped more lives, or harmed more lives?

I'm exploring the edges of what you think or why you think it. You're under no compulsion to answer my questions.

I think that making drug use illegal makes taking drugs immediately more dangerous. Manufacturing drugs becomes a slapdash haphazard process because you cannot standardize manufacture and there are no regulations to prevent cutting them with poison. You also provide criminal syndicates with a means of remuneration; drugs becomes a product to sell, one that there will always be people who want to buy. You have a police force dealing with the issue - which is addiction, not crime - as a bandaid does a bullet wound.

You have a drugs trade that is solely controlled by cartels in different parts of the world, manufacturing drugs in unsafe ways, users whose addiction cannot be satisfied under the law, and a police force that cannot deal with the real problem.

I think your question is excessively simplistic.

I've answered your question, can you now answer mine? Why should drug dealers be murdered by the state for their crime?

 

[Rod Stroker]

I'm exploring the edges of what you think or why you think it. You're under no compulsion to answer my questions.

I think that making drug use illegal makes taking drugs immediately more dangerous. Manufacturing drugs becomes a slapdash haphazard process because you cannot standardize manufacture and there are no regulations to prevent cutting them with poison. You also provide criminal syndicates with a means of remuneration; drugs becomes a product to sell, one that there will always be people who want to buy. You have a police force dealing with the issue - which is addiction, not crime - as a bandaid does a bullet wound.

You have a drugs trade that is solely controlled by cartels in different parts of the world, manufacturing drugs in unsafe ways, users whose addiction cannot be satisfied under the law, and a police force that cannot deal with the real problem.

I think your question is excessively simplistic.

I've answered your question, can you now answer mine? Why should drug dealers be murdered by the state for their crime?

I already gave an answer. I'll pose it again:
Do you think traffickers of hard drugs are helpful to society? or harmful?
Hint; it's a rhetorical question.

There is some good debate ITT, but I'm also reading a lot of excuses.
If the authorities wanted to really clamp down on drug trafficking, both the importation of it as well as the penalties for being caught, they could. I know because I've seen it happen here, and society is far better for it in so many ways:
Drug related crime is basically non existent, which has helped make it one of the safest countries in the world, which has helped business, tourism, investment, the economy, etc.
The courts and police force are expending less time and resources with drug related cases
Hospital and medicals resources are not chewed up by drug patients and cases
The list goes on.

So if Oz was serious about wanting to do similar, they could. Of course it would need more resources to tackle it. But maybe they don't want to. Maybe some in the authorities have been benefiting from the drug trade and don't want to do what's best for the greater good.

 

[Gethelred]

I already gave an answer. I'll pose it again:
Do you think traffickers of hard drugs are helpful to society? or harmful?
Hint; it's a rhetorical question.

Answering a question with another question is hardly a reasonable way to converse, and your sentence hinges on your definition of 'hard drugs'.

Is alcohol a hard drug?
Is codine a hard drug?
Is ibuprofen a hard drug?
Is marijuana a hard drug?
Is ayahusca a hard drug?

Each of these drugs - and one of them is highly halucinogenic - is either consumed as part of religious ritual, or is used as medicine. Making any of them illegal - the latter two are illegal in Australia - condemns religious people not able to practice their religion.

Why does your right to safety - which can be achieved in other, less brutal or sadistic ways - trump others right to practice their religion or live a pain free life?

There is some good debate ITT, but I'm also reading a lot of excuses.

The difference between one person's excuse and another's explanation is spin, Rod.

If the authorities wanted to really clamp down on drug trafficking, both the importation of it as well as the penalties for being caught, they could. I know because I've seen it happen here, and society is far better for it in so many ways:

Drug related crime is basically non existent, which has helped make it one of the safest countries in the world, which has helped business, tourism, investment, the economy, etc.The courts and police force are expending less time and resources with drug related cases

Hospital and medicals resources are not chewed up by drug patients and cases

The list goes on.

You've already noted that an attempt at Singaporean justice for drug dealers would not work here.

You'd see freedom marches of much higher numbers if you tried to bring in hardline laws and to return the death penalty.

So if Oz was serious about wanting to do similar, they could. Of course it would need more resources to tackle it. But maybe they don't want to. Maybe some in the authorities have been benefiting from the drug trade and don't want to do what's best for the greater good.

Okay, we're getting into full blown conspiracy theory here.

Let's keep this firmly on provable ground.

 

[Rod Stroker]

Answering a question with another question is hardly a reasonable way to converse, and your sentence hinges on your definition of 'hard drugs'.

Is alcohol a hard drug?
Is codine a hard drug?
Is ibuprofen a hard drug?
Is marijuana a hard drug?
Is ayahusca a hard drug?

Each of these drugs - and one of them is highly halucinogenic - is either consumed as part of religious ritual, or is used as medicine. Making any of them illegal - the latter two are illegal in Australia - condemns religious people not able to practice their religion.

I'm not talking about those drugs, I'm talking about the illegal hard drugs that cause people to do stupid s**t by harming others; ice, cocaine, speed, ecstasy..

You've already noted that an attempt at Singaporean justice for drug dealers would not work here.

Where have I said that? I only acknowledged that it would be more difficult down there, but it wouldn't be impossible. Nothing worthwhile that is doing, is easy.

Okay, we're getting into full blown conspiracy theory here.

Let's keep this firmly on provable ground.

If you think corruption doesn't exist in the authorities and government down there, then there is little point having this conversation, as you should educate yourself. Start with reading up on Ian Cook from I Cook Foods. His story is not drug related, but it highlights how the corrupt people in power will do whatever it takes including cover ups, to flout the law and fill their own coffers.
Knowing this behaviour goes on, it wouldn't surprise me if the authorities were using their power to benefit from the drug trade.
Heck, just this week, a political party deputy leader has had to resign because she was in a relationship with a bikie gang leader!