The Law The Many Problems With Our Legal System

[Taylor]

So, nothing but theory, then?

The problem I had with that paragraph is that it's the strawiest of strawmen I've ever seen. At no point have we had a society that collectivist in history. Never. It hasn't happened.

So, while I concede that if you were to get some lawful stupid collectivists together and forced them into a 'collectivism or DEATH!!!' mindset you might see something along those lines, I reject the idea that it's a credible hypothetical.

You can make an argument that the Japanese Empire operated like that.

I think you're conflating your progressivism with the collectivism because you've missed that the latter is being used to push the first.

 

[Taylor]

Like nationalism?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Yes, nationalism is a collectivism problem.

 

[Gethelred]

You can make an argument that the Japanese Empire operated like that.

I think you're conflating your progressivism with the collectivism because you've missed that the latter is being used to push the first.

I think you're reaching, and I'm frankly amazed at how far you've gone with one arm.

 

[Taylor]

I think you're reaching, and I'm frankly amazed at how far you've gone with one arm.

Considering that this entire discussion started by my suggestion that almost everyone would dislike a world where a collectivist attitude was taken towards divergent people, locking away mentally ill to protect the rest - I'm just impressed you've found something to argue with me about.

Considering we agree.

 

[Gethelred]

Considering that this entire discussion started by my suggestion that almost everyone would dislike a world where a collectivist attitude was taken towards divergent people, locking away mentally ill to protect the rest - I'm just impressed you've found something to argue with me about.

Considering we agree.

Sure, we agree that the absurdly narrow, rigid and illogical interpretation of collectivism you assumed in that post is reprehensible.

 

[Lethality]

No you cannot. Punishment does nothing to fix the behaviour. It's retribution.

But having said that, the more evolved - some would say, more ruthless - response is to force guilt upon them

Sounds like they're both punishments really, only that one believes it is 'evolved' which is a dangerous assumption.

 

[ElectricG]

Now, far be it from me to tell people how to react in that circumstance; if someone did that to a child of mine, I'd be looking up ideas on Jigsaw traps.

Me too. Out of curiosity did the case studies look at the impact on victim families? If the person who ripped my life and family apart just received a sustained finger-waggling from the justice system, I can’t imagine ever finding anything resembling closure. My worry would be that a justice system that prioritises getting the perpetrator’s life back on track would just encourage vendettas.

 

[Gethelred]

Sounds like they're both punishments really, only that one believes it is 'evolved' which is a dangerous assumption.

It sounds like you're clipping a post of its context, in order to make your strawman function.

Do you want to be threadbanned from this thread, too?

 

[Gethelred]

Me too. Out of curiosity did the case studies look at the impact on victim families? If the person who ripped my life and family apart just received a sustained finger-waggling from the justice system, I can’t imagine ever finding anything resembling closure. My worry would be that a justice system that prioritises getting the perpetrator’s life back on track would just encourage vendettas.

The morbidly interesting thing was, they were neighbours. The girls's parents saw the two boys every day, and vice versa.

There was a rehabilitative process, one which was explored in detail at the time, but that was my first year at uni ago; more than 10 years ago. My memory's good, but not that good.

 

[Lethality]

It sounds like you're clipping a post of its context, in order to make your strawman function.

Do you want to be threadbanned from this thread, too?

I'm just quoting the relevant parts. I read the entire post, what am I taking out of context?

 

[Gethelred]

I'm just quoting the relevant parts. I read the entire post, what am I taking out of context?

Sealioning - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Bye now.

 

[Rod Stroker]

Treating addiction as a medical rather than criminal problem would be a good start.

Drug addiction wouldn't be an issue if the drugs weren't available to start with, as is the case here in Singers. The penalty for trafficking, even if you are mentally ill, is death. Big debate about this right now between Branson and the SG govt

The Straits Times - Breaking News, Lifestyle & Multimedia News

The Straits Times - Get latest breaking news, business, sports, lifestyle, tech & multimedia and more news in Singapore, Asia & rest of the world at straitstimes.com.

www.straitstimes.com

This hard line against drugs is one of the reasons I've stayed here all these years and not moved back to Oz yet. Peace of mind for my girls that they can walk the streets at any time of the day or night, and not have to be subjected to any drug related incidents. The way it should be.

 

[Rod Stroker]

Asian culture is more concentrated on collectivism and respect for society, rather than individualism and “muh rights” as a priority. So I don’t know if an Asian style justice strayed would work here, we would hav to change our entire society over a period of generations for it to fully work.

This "Asian style justice" system you speak of here in Singapore, is based on the Westminster system, same as Oz. Statutes are written laws enacted by the Parliament. The Oz government has just been too soft to take any affirmative action to improve the situation.

And it wouldn't need "generations for it to fully work". Change could be made now. Start locking up traffickers for life, or executing a few, and the rest will soon get the message. This is what happened here.

 

[Rod Stroker]

Prefer the latter, myself. Society is better off for rehabilitating people than punishing them.

And how has that worked in Oz? Are the streets safer? Has drug related crime dropped?

As someone who has lived in both Oz and Singers for decades, my view is that by severely punishing a few, the rest of the population are much better off.

From just this week

Most residents in regional cities believe Singapore's death penalty deters drug traffickers: MHA survey

SINGAPORE: A study conducted by the Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA) found that the majority of residents in regional cities believed that the death penalty was effective in deterring people from trafficking drugs into Singapore. In a press release on Wednesday (Oct 19), MHA also presented two...

www.channelnewsasia.com

 

[Gethelred]

And how has that worked in Oz? Are the streets safer? Has drug related crime dropped?

Australian justice is retributive more than rehabilitative, and I was referring to the Norweigien system as more desirable not Singapore.

As someone who has lived in both Oz and Singers for decades, my view is that by severely punishing a few, the rest of the population are much better off.

From just this week

Most residents in regional cities believe Singapore's death penalty deters drug traffickers: MHA survey

SINGAPORE: A study conducted by the Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA) found that the majority of residents in regional cities believed that the death penalty was effective in deterring people from trafficking drugs into Singapore. In a press release on Wednesday (Oct 19), MHA also presented two...

www.channelnewsasia.com

Just to be clear, by this logic you are suggesting bringing back capital punishment.

Is that what you're saying?

 

[footyfan1978]

Yes, if you asking for capital punisment it going backwards.
Locking up traffickers for life I think sounds a lot better.

 

[Gough]

Executing drug mules does nothing at all to stop the flow of drugs, they're a dime a dozen to drug cartels and so far down the food chain as to be insignificant.

 

[Schneebly11]

And it wouldn't need "generations for it to fully work". Change could be made now. Start locking up traffickers for life, or executing a few, and the rest will soon get the message.

The western world is moving away from “tough on drugs” as it’s become obvious drug abuse is a health not criminal problem.

For what would get one hanged in Singapore would see one proclaimed a successful business owner in Amsterdam.

The stats show that soft on drugs and soft on crime works to reduce crime and drug abuse. Portugal legalised all drugs 20 years ago and overdoses, infections, addiction and crime have plummeted as a result.

 

[the_interloper]

Really good thread.
I was disgusted about the article referenced.
It's one thing to have an addiction, it's another to act it out in an anti-social manner.
We talk about how we should be more Asian - well less anti social behaviour is not tolerated in singapore this is true.

We do? And if so how would we do this?

 

[the_interloper]

Executing drug mules does nothing at all to stop the flow of drugs, they're a dime a dozen to drug cartels and so far down the food chain as to be insignificant.

Yep, I mean wherever there's a market it will be filled somehow, I guess the money gets to a point for these mules where the risk is worth the reward.

 

[burge13]

Yes, if you asking for capital punisment it going backwards.
Locking up traffickers for life I think sounds a lot better.

Alot more expensive for nought result too

Edit: im referring to any life sentence here. Not really in favour of life sentences for drug mules.

 

[Rod Stroker]

Just to be clear, by this logic you are suggesting bringing back capital punishment.

Is that what you're saying?

I wouldn't be against it because I've seen it work here in SG and the vast majority are in favour of it.

I doubt the majority of the Oz public would be in favour of it though. Too soft. Just look at the OP. 78 year old grandmother hospitalized in an unprovoked attack and the judge's sentence was a paltry 3.5 years. The law is slanted towards protecting the perps. Disgraceful.

 

[Rod Stroker]

Yes, if you asking for capital punisment it going backwards.
Locking up traffickers for life I think sounds a lot better.

I'm ok with both being options, depending on the severity, repeat offender, etc.

 

[Rod Stroker]

Executing drug mules does nothing at all to stop the flow of drugs, they're a dime a dozen to drug cartels and so far down the food chain as to be insignificant.

That hasn't been the case here in SG. There are very few people putting their hands up to volunteer as a mule when they know the consequences of getting caught are death.

 

[Rod Stroker]

The western world is moving away from “tough on drugs” as it’s become obvious drug abuse is a health not criminal problem.

It's become a health problem, because it was first allowed to become a criminal problem. The authorities didn't do enough to attack supply.